Omer XXV Speargun + Other Fast tracking guns?

[ulysses]

I got a cheap but good spearing video off eBay (BTW I see Magpie is selling off some interesting spearing stuff inc. camo omer Alien mask & wooden speargun). It's all in Italian, the guy (Georgio Diaparin - something like that) is using C4 gear. Lots of deep, long, stalk-kill-surface shots at the beginning but the fish get bigger & bigger throughout and towards the end he shows more of his dispatching & stringing. The last big fish is speared 3 times (to be sure, to be sure, to be sure?) -- maybe that's why Spaghetti carries 3 guns. Looks like he'd camo'd one wetsuit with brush strokes of metallic gold paint & glued lead plates under rubber onto the back of another. His mask had a simple old single strap & looked like it might be one of those cheap black with yellow frame, plastic lens jobs from the beach shop. He was good though.

Dapiran - also referred to as the 'master' in analogy to the star wars triology - is a living legend in the med. He gave up everything for spearfishing. IMO his films are among the most instructive you will ever find, as he explains the strategy adopted for EVERY catch you see. Understanding a bit of Italian certainly helps, but not strictly necessary to gain some insight into his style of spearfishing and how to improve your own technique. Among my all time favourites are the older 'Agguato a Spigole e Cefali' and 'Agguato a Orate e Saraghi'. Since you mention that he uses a C4 monoscocca in the film you have seen, it is probably 'Aspetto Dinamico al Dentice (1)'. In his other films he is either using DIY wooden hybrid gun (Beuchat old Marlin handle + wooden 'squidbone shape' stock + DIY closed teflon muzzle) or later his own brand of band-guns, the 'Jedi' -> Videosub di Giorgio Dapiran - Arbalete
Indeed he believes in the 'attractive force' of gold camo (applied to most of his suits some of which, I understand, he makes himself and his other gear). If I remember correctly his mask is actually a Technisub 'Look' due to his preference for a wide field of vision vs. low volume.

Cheers

 

[Old Man Dave]

I've seen some Dapiran vid's too. I agree they are quite instructional and he is obviously an expert spearo. I use a technisub Look mask but can't claim any similarities beyond that .

Dave

 

[Mr. X]

He had C4 fins (among others) & the credits mention C4. I think the first gun he used was a C4 but hard to be sure, it had a bulk rubber muzzle. Later in the video he has another gun with a mass-produced handle but wooden cuttle fish profile - probably the one you described. I love listening to the Italian commentary but understand almost nothing from it -- even so I find myself turning up the TV volume sometimes. Having read your posts & link above above & seen the video, I reckon I might give the belt stringer a try this year...just need to find a suitable pin.

Re. the attraction of Gold "camo" -- Foxfish a.k.a. the Silver Smoker was probably onto something. Must try using a gold coloured lure.

 

[ulysses]

X, Dapiran uses two pins both DIY: one is made from a 2mm inox spoke with an eyelet, the other is cut from a bend 6mm shaft.

I bet you have some bends shafts lying around in your garage that you could use

If you are not a DIY maniac like the master, Effesub makes a stringer with Dapiran style end attachment hole and a hard plastic sheath. I am using this for some time. Unlike the Omer/M.Bardi sheath, this one is compatible with a thick marseillaise belt.

=> PORTAPERSCI - PORTAPESCI A CAVETTO CON REGGIFUSO DA CINTURA - Effesub

Cheers

 

[Mr. X]

That's neat, I haven't seen an end-drilled pin before. Nice details: holder, knurling, centre & end holes & 2 O-rings, presumably to hold the pin in the nylon belt holder. You anticipated my activity well. I've already made a belt stringer but I posted the details to Spaghetti's Stringer thread: http://forums.deeperblue.net/708888-post62.html

 

[Mr. X]

thaniks mishu, buts its not the commanche that causes me any problem. The issue I'm having is with the Omer shafts flopper. I find the adjustment of the flopper easy on the cressis shaft , by just crimping it in a bit. I find the sqaure section on the omer shaft makes it difficult to tweek to be able to open smoothly, but still enough friction to stay open.

Hi Pav, how are you getting on with that spear now? The flopper on my Omer spear (& RA spear) are quite loose and I don't plan to change them unless I find it causes a problem; it hasn't with the RA so far. The idea of crimping the barb is new to me -- I saw that French link -- so perhaps this is an issue specific to the flopper-on-top euro spears? Looking at Omer spears on Apnea.co.uk last night, it looks like the spear on the XXV is a special Marco B. design; not sure what difference, if any, that makes. Perhaps Spaghetti can enlighten us?

BTW The Omer instructions, catalog & website are all pretty sparse on such information. I really like the Omer catalog but it could be improved a lot by including helpful illustrations on the use of their gear & innovations & general spearing tips -- like the celebrated Petzl climbing catalogs (which are truly brilliant & have a huge influence on climbing techniques, worldwide).

 

[Pav]

I think in this thread and the thread under beginners and pulling in a fish has brought my attention to two issues for me. 1st the advice re. retrieving poor shots is great, but do get the gut feeling I'm missing something with this gun!

The photos below I think have highlighted an issue with my rigging (cheers to mr x for the photos).

I have mine rigged as the 2nd photo BUT I have not removed the plastic bridge. I do know that on shots my line has not cleared the bungee so may be getting held back as the line clears the gun.

I'm tempted to remove the plastic bridge and rig with the line crossing over the spear. I think it is held in by 1 pin?

Otherwise its to rig as per 1st photo. , but in my mind the 2nd photos would allow the line to clear with less chance of being held back.

Appreciate a nod from an Omer XXV Elder prior to rigging. Cheers ;>)

 

[Mr. X]

Pav, good to hear you found a pos. cause. OMD/Mundial/Spaghetti can probably help you with the open muzzle set-up. As mentioned earlier, I use the boring old closed muzzle configuration shown - the same as my railgun. Looking back in the thread I believe OMD might have had the same problem initially(?). The little Omer instruction book that comes with the gun (& available as a pdf file from their website) shows how to remove the bridge (I think you are right, a single pin) - but strangely makes no mention of rigging the spearline.

It's not obvious to me why using the open muzzle line-configuration with a closed muzzle would cause a problem but obviously it is not what was intended. Perhaps the the angle of the line going to the left side is adversely affected, perhaps something to do with the spearloop passing through the hood (e.g. it is probably flipped backwards) or perhaps the hood prevents the line looping up over the left hand hook properly?

 

[stuckinsurrey]

Hi Boys,

I have an Omer XXV and have just removed the clear plastic guide. Its pretty easy - just push the plastic pin through and the guide slides up and out. I have decided that i'd fish it open muzzle as was concerned that my crimp might catch on the guide as the spear exits dragging the spear of target! The spear is now held in place with the line. Have also put a circle band on it an its a really clean line of sight down the barrel now, just need to see a fish to try it out! The rotating frame that the band attach to can be removed by taking out the s/s pin at the front. Will try to post a picture next week.

Jim

 

[Mr. X]

Cool Jim. Which size did you get (sounds like the Gold version as you have the bulk rubber band)? Look forward to hearing the comparisons with Podge's Dessault!

 

[stuckinsurrey]

I bought the 82cm, and the rubbers are the omer bands with the screw ends so you can still screw the wishbone on. Will take a photo over the weekend and post on tuesday when i have a multicard reader.

 

[Mr. X]

Excellent. I reckon 82cm might be the best all round size for the SW. Between us, we seem to have most sizes covered now (75/82/90). We just need somebody to get a 100 -- with the 5cm shorter shaft & slim barrel, not unreasonable for the UK - esp. Cornwall/Channel Islands -- and surely a good bet for the med (although I think Spaghetti suggested it might be a bit light for sizes > 90).

 

[foxfish]

I came across these guys practicing to use their lightweight short guns!
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlFlXMHaSVQ&feature=related]YouTube - massive recoil[/ame]

 

[glowworm]

I wonder if they make a fully auto version with a 30 round mag.Where's podge when you need him.

 

[Mr. X]

Omer XXV first impressions in use

Tried out the 75cm XXV today for the first time (no recoil). Vis. was sh!te, 1-1.5m so ideal conditions for the shorter gun. It also peed down with rain much of the time (BBC forecast was completely wrong, ITV forecast spot-on) & even got a series of freak waves for a period yack). I felt cold in the water too - more so than in Feb. Pretty ghastly really. Didn't see any signs of life but let off the speargun twice to check it out.

Some initial impressions:

THINGS I LIKED:
+ it is MUCH more maneuverable than the 90cm RA, it was hard to believe how good it is
+ it is MUCH lighter in the water
+ 75cm is a v. good size (Clive was right) and this is short enough for all my current needs (Spearo Dave was right), in fact the 82 XXV would have been good today.
+ like the butt for loading
+ flat barb is cool
+ side line release is easy to deal with
+ closed-muzzle configuration works well
+ didn't miss not having a rail (I don't have the gold model with rail)

THINGS I DIDN'T LIKE:
- man I hate articulated wishbones with a passion. I thought at least the shaped metal blade would engage very quickly & positively in the notches - WRONG on both counts. Although it did almost cut my new gloves & my finger & it did scar the new spearline. Seems downright dangerous & the Omer style one seems sharper than their French-style articulated wishbones (presumably for cleaner amputation of our fingers?). It became easier to load once I bent the spearline out the way - still very disappointing though. Dyneema wishbones work much better and are better in almost every way (they don't last as long). We must convert the poor benighted europeans to this "new" technology.

- plastic screw in connections ...waste way too much of the available barrel length and they are awkward & unpleasant to hold. Simple dyneema wishbones are so much better, and bulk rubber bands simpler, cheaper & make greater use of available barrel length IMHO.

- the rubbers feel weak & with little distance between loose & stretched. I can see why Mundial went to Omer bulk rubber & shortened the bands.

- the front metal piece, that allows the flexible muzzle to accept screw in rubbers, also allows the rubbers to flop right over the tip of the spear. Not a major problem but kind of messy sometimes - either I will get used to this or it will get to me - or....

Bulk rubber here I come.

- loading butt gets in the way of the SA-style side aiming I try to use (will likely shoot too far left).

- feel the need to molly codle the carbon fibre gun to avoid damage

- slim spear does easily get caught in things

- flat barb opens up whenever you lower the tip of the gun, so much for reduced drag there.

Despite all the cool characteristics mentioned above, I felt myself wishing I had a 70-80cm RA in my hand a couple of times today - it would have been so easy for me to use without having to think, while this Omer is going to require me to make quite a lot of changes to the way I operate and/or the gun set-up, which quite honestly I would rather not deal with. If you are used to euroguns though, then you won't notice any of those things.

I'm sure it will grow on me more as I become more familiar with it - and start adapting it to be more like an SA railgun! As Spaghetti says, better to stick to one brand & model but more fun & experience if you try several different ones. It definitely has some significant advantages too & will I think fullfill my short guns needs very well.

BTW I tried loading Omer-style on my lower abs but was worried about the spear tip waving about in front of me under tension - so switched back to good old SA-style sternum loading. Thankfully a breeze after the 20mm RA bands on the 90cm.

Other gear tried out today:
+ Beuchat stretch gloves -- super close fit (thin so we'll have to see how they stand up to wear & metal wishbones)

+ extra 2lb lead on belt (22lb total now) -- great, still float up but staying on the bottom is now less strenuous

- Homemade belt stringer -- pin too long, fell out of belt (Apnea sent me an Omer wire stringer by mistake -- by the way, the RA belt stringer is much bigger, stronger and I would say a much better float stringer).

THOUGHT: What if bulk rubber only works if you have a rail?!!! Perhaps the down pull element of the bulk rubber will make the XXV inaccurate w/o a rail (the Omer doesn't have the in-line bulk rubber muzzle of a SA railgun & my XXV has no rail). Perhaps that's why they don't ship bulk rubber with the plain XXV (as they do with the Gold). Anybody know if this is an issue? (Does the Gabbiano have a rail? Darn, yes it does. I wonder ... QUESTION: does bulk rubber require a rail to work accurately?)

 

[foxfish]

Mr X your reports are amongst the best
yep get rid of the rubbers & use a circular band with dynema, most people aim along the top so just get used to it & fix the barb with an "O" ring or a elastic band.
.... If it dont kick fit a bigger shorter band.

 

[Pav]

not sure if it was causing a problem, but re-rigged and back to loving the gun! We didn't come by any Bass large enough, but a few good size mullet, and the line cleared the bungees clean every shot.

Accuracy has never been a problem, but think the wrong line rigging was holding the spear back.

will post on cornwall thread.

 

[ulysses]

Re: Omer XXV first impressions in use

Despite all the cool characteristics mentioned above, I felt myself wishing I had a 70-80cm RA in my hand a couple of times today - it would have been so easy for me to use without having to think, while this Omer is going to require me to make quite a lot of changes to the way I operate and/or the gun set-up, which quite honestly I would rather not deal with. If you are used to euroguns though, then you won't notice any of those things.

I'm sure it will grow on me more as I become more familiar with it - and start adapting it to be more like an SA railgun!

X, your experience just confirms the best advice I ever got some years ago which made me give away a lot of various band-guns/arbaletes - including Cressi, Omer, Sporasub, Picasso, C4 - and keep only the Beuchat Mundial in various sizes (choice mainly determined by the handle).

Sticking to one model - at least the same handle(!)* - that you are comfortable and familiar with pays off in a myriad ways!

... and could distinguish you from your missus - remote-controlled by fashion mags and ads (mine is!) rofl

Think of it this way:

Other than a complete novice, you will not often see a tennis player change his racket model and certainly not during a match. Why? The familiarity and positive sensation they have with 'their' racket is much more valuable than the higher content of carbon fibres in another allegedly better frame.

A spearo exclusively using, for example, a classic, simple round-alu-barelled Marc Valentin (which has not changed in the last 20 years!) will be much more effective with his seemingly 'outdated' arbalete than somebody dragging along the entire Omer range with an absurd variety of shapes and forms of the handles alone, loosing his 'feeling' for the gun whenever he switches from one to another.

Cheers,
ulysses

*) "Bands shoot, handle scores!"

 

[Mr. X]

I tried to stick with RA Ulysses but couldn't get what I was looking for. However, the XXV has been a revelation that has given me a different perspective. With a gun this agile, you could buy a gun a size or two longer than you would normally. I think my ideal next gun would be an RA 80/82/90 with 25mm carbon barrel & 6.3mm spear. Hey, it could happen! Actually, it probably never would -- one is fundamentally a big tough gun, the other is fundamentally a very lightweight agile gun. Even the handle of the Omer is unusually lightweight.

...yep get rid of the rubbers & use a circular band with dynema, most people aim along the top so just get used to it & fix the barb with an "O" ring or a elastic band.
.... If it dont kick fit a bigger shorter band.

Power freak! I like the band idea, I have a box of assorted O-rings at home. I think it would be even more useful on the RA. The XXV has made me wonder if I can get significantly improved tracking performance from the RA by banding the flopper as you suggest & removing the large muzzle bungee & clip - maybe remove that cork I stuck in the muzzle too - and using lighter spear line. I've also been planning to move back from 20mm to 16mm rubber too, which should help reduce mass & drag, & therefore inertia. When I first bought the railgun, I thought of fitting a 10cm shorter spear; perhaps I should consider than again (maybe 5 or 10cm shorter) & maybe a 6.3 rather than a 6.6mm one? I'll see how well the Omer 6.3mm spear stands up first.

 

[Mr. X]

Re: Omer XXV Speargun - Further impressions

Ok - I used the Omer XXV today for the second time and it's been an interesting experience. I thought I make a note of my impressions - although you may just want to go out and buy one & find out y'rself.

First 30ft or so from shore was gin clear, thinking I should have brought the 90cm gun BUT it did not last. The next quarter mile mild Spring bloom green snow - 1-2m vis - glad I brought the short gun. Took a small pollock for bait, a long shot - hit perfectly. Surprised and a confidence boost in gun. It was not to last... The next shot I missed a lone mackeral, a difficult shot at the best of times.

Further out, the current ripped but the water cleared a little. Dived just as a large shoal of small mullet passed by like ghosts at high speed. I dived again down in deep water this time and then ascended via weed on a near vertical rock face and a huge bass passed overhead. A bit far, it saw me first, fired - darn out of range. Reloaded & dived again, this time 2 large bass started to pass over head, saw me & turned tail - out of range I waited too long hoping they'd come close, so I did not take a shot. Darn, the 90cm would have reached. Dived a third time. 3 medium size bass passed overhead, too far again, I fired knowing the spear would not reach far enough and I was right.

I tried the same trick but staying closer to the surface but saw no more bass. A decent mullet saw me but immediately turned & sped away (I felt way too visible by this point). Starting trying to think like a fish, I slowly ascended a ramp over which the last fish & a shoal of sandeels (the source of attraction?) disappeared. As I peaked over, a medium size mullet was resting right in front of me on the edge of a weed bed, in a foot or so of water! I fired, I missed - it was over in a fraction of a second. Too quick for me. The XXV's pivoting muzzle caused more tangles & threading issues than normal. The trigger seemed to need a really long squeeze (odd, as it struck me as a tad too light last week). Getting the spear to positively engage in the trigger mech. failed about 50% of the time -- this is not good. Not sure what the problem is -- perhap the spear loop needs to be a smidge longer [BTW why does the spear have 2 holes in it? I use the rear most - same position as my railgun]

Decided to move on an explore another area. This time the XXV was in its element. Last year I circled around an area, each time encountering different mullet in the same clearing but each time failing to hit one - leaving me exasperated. Well this time I saw a big mullet, when I followed it, I encountered 2 medium sized mullet & took one. Then I circled round again but found nothing, but while exploring nearby string weed (remembering Foxfish's liking for this terrain) I noticed the big V-tail of a large mullet*. Surely it had seen me - every other fish had. No, or if it had, it was playing it cool. I fired before it passed out of sight. Solid hit - probably hit the spine it didn't fight much. I opened the flopper manually but the fish was not struggling & the spear had gone all the way through.

On the way back I saw a shoal of sandeels in tight formation. Decided to dive & see if a predator was following. As I waited a smallish bass approached me directly -- perhaps drawn in by the fish on my stringer rather than the sandeels. I fired, thinking of the skewer shot video but missed. Didn't feel too bad, it was a bit small and the XXV 75 was clearly selective for mullet and not bass. Saw several spiders crabs but only saw one big enough to be worth taking -- it took so long to bag it that I drifted right past prime bass location. Couldn't be bothered to swim back, I needed to get back to shore, happy enough with the day's catch.

Conclusions? Horses for courses. The XXV is so agile, I think the 82 would have been a better compromise for today's varied conditions...although the big bass probably needed a full 90 (Robbo66 was right!) to reach them but the mullet were defo easier to tackle with the small gun - or perhaps I'd have lost out at both ends! Taking 2 guns ala spaghetti would have solved the problem but, I'm not yet comfortable taking 2 & I might not have swum so far if I had to drag a lot of gear.

I'm too visible to fish. The white Beuchat logos on my gloves, the white triangle Omer markings on the speargun, the white handle on the speargun and that lovely shiney spear are all too easy to see esp. when the sun comes out, the water is clear and the fish are above you. I'm going to have to drab it all down somehow:hmm.

BTW I tried Foxfish's o-ring trick to keep the barb in several time and it seems to work well enough. Too much messing around when there are fish close by though. Almost forgot, I shot one small-medium mullet in a shoal as it swam by. Thought I'd nailed it as it rolled upside down as the spear went into the shoal but then it recovered its poise & continued without loosing position in the shoal (a Matrix moment?!).

*The large mullet was the same length as the 4lb fish I took at the end of last season but surprisingly this one weighed only 2.5lb. Perhaps the difference between pre-Winter fat & post-Winter depletion?