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Scuba fins vs. freedive fins

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
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Wow! That was a rant and a half. Hard to understand most of it, but I get the point that you are upset. Jetfins have some very loyal customers.

Maybe I am elitist; but how is that a bad thing, especially when the bar for normal is set to a standard that is 50 years old? Try to imagine Boeing still building the 707 and the competition not trying to make anything better than that. The airlines would not have put up with it and found someone who could do better. That hasn't really happened in the scuba industry. Why is that?

Should the Air Force still be flying F-4s? It was state of the art 50 years ago. Were the creators of the F-22 at the Pentagon and Lockheed simply being elitist to demand something better from the F-22? No! Competition forced them to demand better. It's a situation of excel or perish in that business. That level of competition is missing in the scuba industry. Is this lack of competition because of the customers, the manufacturers, the training agencies, or all the above? Is it something else entirely?

When I talk to divers, it seems many of them can't imagine something any better than what they have. Even after getting slammed and abused by relatively normal and common 2 knot ocean currents on a dive, the situation of diver mobility is perceived to be just fine even though they can't swim any faster than 1.5 knots in a sprint. Why is this situation considered okay? These things don't make sense to me.

Personally, I want something better than the status quo and I've been trying to do something about it. If that makes me elitist, I guess I'm okay with it. I'm not going to change my opinion simply because someone got upset and went on a rant because I don't think Jetfins are the best things ever made. Jetfins hurt my feet and don't perform as well for me as other fins I have available to use.

Before getting overly defensive about Jetfins, diver mobility is not really even a fin issue. Diver mobility is a diver issue. Fins are a part of that, but it is a system level problem. Magic fins that are 100% efficient would not make most divers as mobile as they should be to operate safely and with confidence in the ocean. Before looking at new fins, it is actually more important to tackle the issue of drag, because every pound of drag shed from the diver is a pound of thrust the fins don't need to generate. If a diver doesn't deal with the drag issue first, don't expect better fins to make a huge difference. It will have some impact, but probably not what you'd be expecting.

My latest scuba kit has only 15% the drag of typical recreational scuba kits using the same tank (standard AL80). My estimates for total diver drag are over 40% less than that of the average recreational scuba diver. With this level of drag reduction, the efficiency of the fins I'm using makes a very noticeable difference. With my home-made long fins, I can cruise efficiently at 2 knots. I speed limit at 2.5 knots because my regulator starts free-flowing heavily. My actual physical speed limit is 2.9 knots.

The biggest benefit of all this is that when most divers are tapped out at 1 knot for a long range cruise, my breathing rate is the same as it is when I'm sitting on the bottom not moving at all. If the currents pick up and I need to be able to move quickly, I can do it without burning through my tank supply or building up dangerous levels CO2 in my bloodstream, and my feet never hurt. I prefer this to "normal" diving.

The second benefit is that I can swim with dolphins and other large ocean animals without getting left behind. This is something normal scuba divers don't get to do unless they ditch the tanks and freedive, or just surface swim. (Skip forward to 2 minutes if the "start at time" function isn't working.)

I am elite. But, I have a hard time understanding why this was not made normal a long time ago.
 
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Reactions: omega3


I wont be able to view the video for about a week. I hope it is good. On a six day deco there is all the time in the world to rant. So here I am just for you. Paid too, fabulous!

Don`t misunderstand, I am wholeheartedly for progress advancement etc, when it is actually that and not a redesigned wheel being sold as the latest and greatest. If you believe however that you can take the mask, snorkel and flipper to a whole new game changing level you go for it. I am not seeing it yet, just tweaks and changes on an established working tool given a specific task. This is comparable to say the surf/kite/skate/ski etc. industries and collectives. Every possible permutation has been tried and the only incremental advancements are coming with new materials and manufacturing process although one would not believe it from any of the adverts. The same can be said of kites and paragliders and many many other especially leisure products. The monumental leaps are with things like hoverboards from Zapata industries. completely unrelated to his previous efforts which were an advancement on a jetski. It is separated completely to what may be a new pastime(I hope and wish)


Your aviation analogy is a far far stretch from from a lump of rubber in different shapes and sizes that performs its given tasks to the best of design purpose. A very far stretch. A lot of hot air. To bring you back to earth, you are the "snakeboard" of the skateboard world since you seem to like an analogy and well done to you! but,

blades are not that game changer. Freediving is not that game changer to diving in general and the Scuba diving industry and its participants which you might wish to laud over are what they are.

Drag reduction is great but these modern scooters will go a lot further/faster than you on you home made blades or any fins with tank or without. Your ability is exactly that, yours and totally irrelevant to any given task the moment you go beyond your birthday suit. If you are going to exceed your breath hold ability and live you will need an alternative air supply, i you wish to propel yourself faster, fins to their limit beyond that an alternative is required. If you wish to see underwater, you get the picture I am sure and no amount of management speak above on your superpowers will get you round that.

"new products simply reflect the retarded aspirations of bulk participants. Either way, it's a pathetic situation. "

LOL

I really like the grey/lime green colour combinations these day on all kit. Jetfins need this!!
 
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omega3 said:
I wont be able to view the video for about a week. I hope it is good. On a six day deco there is all the time in the world to rant. So here I am just for you. Paid too, fabulous!
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I can deduce from this that you are a commercial diver. This makes more sense now. Commercial divers are site divers and don't really need to swim. Many jobs are better served with boots instead of fins. It doesn't matter how efficient your fins are if you are not moving. In that situation, I'm sure Jetfins are quite adequate.

Part of the problem for recreational diving is that the equipment they use was originally adapted from commercial diving gear. The requirements for these activities are different. Recreational divers need mobility and range, whereas commercial divers generally don't.

The solution of taking a diver that is basically not mobile and clipping a disembodied electric trolling motor to them to drag them through the water is, on the face of it, a rather ridiculous solution. As ridiculous, expensive and inconvenient as that solution is, this is what the existing scuba industry has offered as a solution for diver mobility. I think it is a bad solution. FYI: If you look at the numbers from the Tahoe Benchmark, I am more mobile than than the bulk of DPVs tested (about par with the best).


I am achieving a hydrodynamic efficiency in the water that is about eight times better than normal recreational scuba equipment. I see this as more than just tweaks, in that it's a really big improvement. However, I did achieved it without drastically changing the look and feel of the equipment, and this keeps everything familiar.

This performance is actually not that hard to achieve. The realization that it was easy to get this performance is why I am so frustrated that it isn't normal. Manufacturers keep selling recreational scuba gear without putting any effort into making it work for recreational divers. Frankly, I'm more than a bit pissed that I have to make my own gear to get something that works. Believe me, I'd much rather be able to just buy manufactured equipment that works as well, or better, than what I have now. It would be a lot easier and cheaper than having to make it myself from scratch. One-off prototype hardware is crazy expensive to make.

My ultimate goal is to achieve about 24 times better hydrodynamic efficiency than today's typical recreational diver. This will be difficult to achieve, and I'm not surprised or pissed that someone else has not made this already. Whereas 8x improvements can basically be made with commonsense streamlining and a rudimentary understanding of fluid mechanics, 24x will take some serious R&D effort and an advanced understanding of fluid mechanics. The advantage, I think, is that this would get over the mobility hump and really make a significant impact on how divers operate and what they can do. At 24x, divers will become nektons.

If you want another analogy just for fun:

There is a similar problem with inconsistent requirements and aircraft technology being repurposed. All the modern aircraft technology has been adapted from early bomber developments*. However, when you want to use an airplane for transportation instead of dropping bombs, the technology is simply deficient from design principles rooted in its early origins. As a result, general aviation aircraft can fly, but they don't really work. That's why almost no one uses them for anything other than a tool for learning to fly big commercial planes. And, if you've flown on the airlines lately, you've probably questioned if that system can be claimed to really work either. Airplanes, as they have been designed, work well for flying away from a base of operation, dropping something out and then returning to that base of operation. If you want to do something else, like go somewhere other than a base of operation, it doesn't work nearly as well, to the point where other tech is usually better at getting the job done.

*(exceptions for ultralights of the para or flexwing type; these are classified as aerial vehicles not aircraft, and they evolved from space capsule recovery technology)
 
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Reactions: omega3
omega3, you need to chill. It helps to realize that the needs of divers vary as widely as their use.

I was a confirmed jetfin user for many years. Its a great fin, just not nearly as good as almost any longfin for some applications. For example: Longfins came out in my area about 26 years ago. I dove with a group of fanatic scuba spearos who almost all used jetfins. The Cressi Rondine became available, a very soft longfin. Its acceleration was less than a jetfin, but its efficiency (and speed) for long swims (which we needed) was hugely better. Within a year everybody switched to longfins. I was one of the last holdouts but switched immediately after a buddy forced me to try his longfins. Since then the acceleration issue was solved by stiffer fins and nobody who is a serious spearo in this area uses Jetfins (at least that I know of).

None of this means that jets are not better than longfins in some applications. I still wear jets for lobster diving. Some divers don't have the application or the leg strength for longfins, etc, etc.. It depends on the diver and the dive.
 
Reactions: Mr. X and omega3

OK, give me a mo to warm up.
 
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I can deduce you do not have even a vague idea. I deduced this the moment you quoted my post looking to move your BS if not before.


For a start, its "professional diver" and in my spare time I scuba and spearfish, amongst many other things, lol, occasionally I wear my Salvimar nexts or my old Maorisub carbons but not with SCUBA they are not the tool of choice in my experience. Hint, I have a couple of hours wearing fins and every type has arrived on some job at some time and there is a good reason for this

So please, continue to enlighten and educate me on the requirements of a professional divers work. Let me know the next time you have to swim forty or so meters carrying a range of tools upto "this is not going to be fun level " or " I am seriously not looking forward to the swim level" or " this is going to f^&*% do me in" level. With no added buoyancy or beyond whatever buoyancy you have and the implications of loading yourself. Towing a bloody great hose guaranteed to catch on something mid way if not the whole f%^&in way. Continue to fin for hours n hours with the occasional stop cos, f$%^&ed. Cramping up many times, swimming all around a cramped node or dauntingly gigantic structure in awe node, with 8 or more members, up down left right in out round n round. Swimming lines, moving gear on lines etc etc etc, do that for 6 hours finning, you will know exactly how streamlined you are not in a hot water or bulked drysuit. Repeat day after day maybe you might have an alternative view. This is mid-water work, 150 days already on offer for next year, had 1 program this year of 90 days. Let me know the next time you do a complete hull survey of a 150m + vessel carrying a hand held camera with power cable and your umbilical. Replacing 100`s of anodes in the 100`s of kg`s under a semi sub followed by a survey. Finning, hours and hours of finning and some more hours.

Until then I can guarantee that you are unbelievably full shit if you think you can picture or understand the job. Working on the seabed is a whole different story and fortunately fins are not needed most of the time. You have no experience in this field and no place to comment here if you have no experience here.

You have no idea of the misery of the feeling, the one where you look down and see a fin drifting off out of reach...lol! You will not know what a ripping tide is and working as described above in any tide

Think about that the next time you quote someone to move your bullshit about vague achievements efficiency and performance.

And while we are here, lets have a list of all your perceived products that the"industry" has supposedly gone in a backward direction with, list any of real relevance and the brand name. Find a hundred items and it will be a drop in the ocean of what is available, go on, put your money where your mouth is.

Everything past your 1st paragraph has absolutely jack to do with the fact that Jetfins are great for SCUBA and they rock.

As for fins coming from commercial diving, do you know any diving history, even an inkling? I call Beuchat on that statement and a Cousteau to boot. You are just making it up pure and simple.

#1 I am going to leave this with you to think about and if you still don`t get it have a re read from where I first posted simply that jetfins are awesome, second to none. Its the post before your ego got the better of you.

What were you thinking apart from listing a bunch of unsubstantiated high self praise waffle bro,
That is the question(rhetorical)

You are clearly better suited to the aerospace industry.
Love peace and hair grease.
Top tip, try harder, you can do it but see #1

I look forward to seeing the vid (better be worth my time)and yer carbon fins look ace.
 
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Confirm this:

Drag your pitiful wretched excuse for a reply which has the sum value of 0 back under the rock from which you slimed out from under.

"You need to chill" You actually wrote that before before describing what is the ability to identify a trend, yet not have a clue as to what one is. So down with the kids pa!

Bwaaaaahhahahahahahhahaha jetfin is # 1

Thanks for joining
Best regards

Go on, back in yer box labradoodle.
 
"Go back in yer box labradoodle"

But in all seriousness how about we take a step back and respect the other parties conflicting opinions
 
Well that was fun kids

Now all I said is something like, jetfins are number 1 bar none for SCUBA.

Deal with it.

They are not perfect, and the range would be well enhanced with a footpocket model since the aftermarket straps are out there

already.

Sports divers, oh and freedivers...pffffft

Watch out for sharks and squids, and other cool stuff.
 
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Rock Shooter said:
"Go back in yer box labradoodle"

But in all seriousness how about we take a step back and respect the other parties conflicting opinions
Click to expand...
Agreed. There is room in the ocean for many divers doing different things.

I think I'll unfollow this without bothering to read the latest rants. I feel no good can come from continuing this.
 
cdavis said:
moderaters, please take note
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Do we really need moderation on this, its an adult forum and sure, frank posts have been put up but its all in good humour, a frank exchange is a refreshing change to the "lets all agree" situation that we usually find ourselves in. One bloke like jets above all else for scuba and another thinks he can get merman efficiency whilst denigrating the scuba industry and they wound each other up a bit, the thread was interesting and entertaining, lets not sanitise the forum too much, I have been insulted by my own kid more than any insult on here, this stuff is forum gold. By the nature of what we do, we're gonna get characters and quite frankly, long may it continue
 
DB has a well deserved reputation for not tolerating the flamers you often find on other sites. Its why I tend to hang out here rather than somewhere like Spearboard. Strong disagreement and detailed reasoning are great; "forum gold" is a good description. However,
"Drag your pitiful wretched excuse for a reply which has the sum value of 0 back under the rock from which you slimed out from under" or "you are unbelievably full shit", don't qualify.
 
Reactions: Bill McIntyre, Magpie, Mr. X and 1 other person
Hi all,

I've been a member of DB for over 12 years now. The thing that makes this the best underwater forum in the world and that keeps new people coming and old people staying is respect. This is a private forum run by an individual, as such you don't have the right to break the rules he sets. And they work too.

You can refer to the forum rules here:
https://forums.deeperblue.com/help/rules/

Specifically, here are a couple of exerpts:

THE RULES AT A GLANCE
Click to expand...

Please follow the forum rules, otherwise infractions will be given.

Cheers,
Ben
 
Reactions: Mr. X
What he said. If I wanted stuff like that I would have stayed on Spearboard. We can disagree without the personal attacks.
 
Reactions: Mr. X
Omega3, Jetfins were sexy back when I started getting interested in snorkeling, back in about c. 1975 Sounds like perhaps they still are for SCUBA - like a beautiful mature woman? I would certainly look at Jetfins if I were to get into SCUBA now. Or if I felt boots vs. booties (i.e. neoprene socks) offered me a major advantage out of water. Actually dive boots do clearly offer a significant advantages/convenience out-of-water, as Pinniped72 already suggested. So, in that regard, I am just following fashion rather than my own instincts (often a mistake) - long fins are what spearos use. And spearos might be using them simply because that is what competitive freedivers use.
 
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With respect Pinniped72:
Yes, unfortunately we definitely do need moderation - and I am generally an advocate for free speech. This IS NOT AN ADULT FORUM, some members are children and members would do well to bear that in mind. I can think of numerous occasions we have dealt with (or failed to deal with ) which were not at all "in good humour". Yes a little bit of controversy and argument can be interesting and/or entertaining - "forum gold" as you say - but too often it gets out of hand. We have lost some well loved forum members that way. In my experience, our child members have shown greater maturity and respect than many of the adult members who should know better.
 
Reactions: BatRay and Pinniped72
REVAN said:
...
Should the Air Force still be flying F-4s? It was state of the art 50 years ago. Were the creators of the F-22 at the Pentagon and Lockheed simply being elitist to demand something better from the F-22? No!...
Click to expand...
The Jetfin seems more like the B52 bomber than the the F-4
 
Fair one, rules are rules and manners maketh man and all that and yes, I have to agree, this is the best underwater Forum in the world
 
Reactions: Mr. X
Pinniped72, in response to your previous question, I was on a student budget and hoped to buy a set of fins with enough versatility that I didn't need to buy two sets of specialized gear. It was never intended to be a controversial topic

Interesting that someone mentioned Rondine. It was one of the fins I was considering way back when.
 
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