Sea Angling for Spearos

[octpora]

$80 sounds a lot to me, until I do the conversion - at current exchange rates that's about £40 (the low end of mid-range). For that money I have seen new Daiwa Whisker carbon 10/11 ft. spinning rods for sale on eBay.co.uk - they got snapped up pretty fast.

That would be for a tica surfcaster in the 9 foot range with an action that lets you cast from 3/4 oz. to 4 oz. of rig.

Regarding casting distance, yes a longer rod will cast further than a given shorter rod. Flex action plays into this as well, but that varies with casting style. When the spanish mackies are in striking distance from the surf, The weapon of choice is a 9 or 10 footer, stiff or medium stiff 3oz. capacity and a fast spinning reel.

For playing a big fish a longer rod not only gives you more reach over near shore obstacles, But is in effect a longer spring. It can absorb more shock and save your line. Also, for casting the longer rod allows you to throw more. My rod for heavier chunk bait casting is a 12 foot tica. I've thrown 14 oz with it [10oz lead and a big chunk of bait]

Yes, past a certain point, the price of a rod can be stupid. But something i try to keep in mind is that too cheap a rod represents waste. Rods require someone to manufacture all sorts of hideous crap to build the rod. Then, if it breaks due to poor craftsmanship, rushed construction methods, or inferior hideous crap, Where can you recycle an epoxy coated graphite splinter?

Anybody saltwater flyfish?

 

[Magpie]

What like this one? (That was a Daiwa Amorphous Whisker Tournament, which hasn't been made for a while but good secondhand ones still go for 300quid easily).

I've now got a very expensive handle for my pond weed scooper!

 

[foxfish]

Interesting fact = Magpie has officially cast an apple 145m! (he has also cast a 5/1/4oz lead 231m ) Not sure if it was with that rod though.

 

[atomichaggis]

The way i like to rig it, with the lead further up the line, longer plastics, or jellies, have a completely different, almost freaky action. The lead shot causes some commotion in the bottom if it gets to touch, but then the sluggo is out there waving at mr fishy. Mr fishy attacks. The effect is closer to bait than a leaded hook or jighead. I also like it because it gives more good lip hookups than swallows, like bait gives if you set the hook too late.




>========------------------------------ooo

You guys are spoiled for fish out there too tho... seems over here we tend to go hardcore on a small number of species. Bass is just one fish here lol.

I like to keep my drop very short to non existant when i lure fish due to using the shortish baitcaster, so it's mostly just a spoon, wobbler or stickbait straight on my line but what you describe is a bit like powerballing a rubber eel that is quite popular in the UK... I think Mr.X has been trying that out from his kayak.
The closest to that I do is float a fly/worm/mackie strip from a trout bomber for seatrout but its better on a long rod.

 

[atomichaggis]

So what do you look for in a good rod? How can you tell that you are getting something better than the cheaper ones? Many inexpensive carbon rods available now are so much better than the glass fibre rods we used to use - they include standard features that used to be the hallmark of higher end rods (screw-up Fuji reel seats, full cork handles, ceramic lined 1/2/3 legged Fuji rings, carbon blank). I'm wondering if the difference is shrinking/getting more subtle. For most equipment there is a law of diminishing returns -- after a certain point small improvements start to cost much more (for racing bikes it is interesting to cost out how much it costs to save weight in different ways -- $20-$200 per 50g is not uncommon). For you guys that live near the sea, it probably makes sense to get the best, you get so much use out of them -- but I fish with a rod perhaps 10 times a year & then only for an hour or so each time (and that split between spinning &, now, bait fishing).

The only thing that is important in a rod is blank action.
The materials used will affect the action in a specific way both in casting and playing a fish. Carbon is light and snappy but brittle and fibreglass is heavy, soggy but can bend double on a good rod.
The way the materials are put together also affect the action of the rod. They can give it a J curve or a C curve when casting... J being suited to power casting with intuitive timing and C being more forgiving for beginners and smoother for casting floats etc.
Some examples... A good boat rod in my opinion is around 6-7 foot with a carbon butt (keeps the weight down), slightly soggy blended mid section and a glass tip(must bend on a short rod). Some prefer a 5-6 ft standup 100% fibreglass rod that will bend double and others a long springy carbon one for uptiding(the mid section soaks up the hits). The trick is finding a rod that suits your technique/style and physique. I'd blow over in a wind with a 14ft tourny caster so it doesn't matter if Danny Moeskops cast a sheep to the moon with it... My surf rod is a fluffy puppy
No rod is all things to all men, you need different rods for surfcasting, floatfishing, boatfishing etc.

All the guides and fittings are just icing and won't make a bad stick good.
They do however make a good stick prettier
I dunno all the sticks personally but you can't go wrong with the top makes like Zziplex and Century etc.
The top manufacturers know a lot more about composites and invest more in development and testing than the lower end ones so on the whole you usually end up getting what you pay for... That said, there are lots of diamonds among the coal and if You know what you want and ask the right people you are bound to find something that suits your fishing and your budget. Also worth noting, an ill suited rod that costs a fortune is a huge mistake.

 

[foxfish]

Mr x you might be interested to research eyeless rods?
I use the Daiwa Interline models now but also liked the Silstar range, I find this type of rod superb for use in my small boat. There is a trade off from the beautiful action & feel you get in that they are a bugger to thread the line through in the first place.

 

[atomichaggis]

Interesting. I have long wondered if part of the reason the Americans have so many rods in the 5.5ft-7ft range might be something to do with the rhythm that tends to produce when reeling in -- perhaps it produces a particularly realistic lure movement?

Yes, I haven't noticed any gain in casting distance between the 6.5 foot Shimano & the 10ft Shakespeare. With a 20-28g lure, they seem to cast about the same distance as far as I can tell. I guess the 10 fter would more comfortably handle a 40g/50g/60g lure -- its rate 10-60g rather than 10-30g -- which probably would cast farther. A longer rod does help you reach over washed up weed & rocks -- which is a common problem here. It might also help landing bigger fish (I hope to find out one day ) or a string of mackeral.

The small rods are fun though & so easy to carry around. I wonder if a travel rod or telescopic might also prove useful. I've found in the past that I am far more inclined to carry small/light gear, consequently it gets used a lot more use (camera, phone, spearing float, etc.).

The lures do their own things and the rods all have differing actions anyway, they don't do anything especially different to a long rod with a similar tip when reeling a lure in... perhaps a slightly more direct feeling of contact with the lure.

I know others will probably disagree with this but... Well balanced Baitcasters cast further! My 7ft greys casts 25ish grams further than 11ft Abu spinner and My 6ish ft shimano baitcaster casts 50 gram further than the Abu spinner (and 13ft Century with the same effort)... FACT!

The greys casts further than the Abu spinner because it has a faster J curve and you just can't crank the Abu up enough to cast as snappy, it also helps that the baitcasting reel is a multiplier.
The shimano is all carbon and seriously snappy and just makes the Abu look poor even when it's optimally cranked up. the century could probably hit the other side of the fjord if provoked but it takes a bit of acrobatics, the shimano does it effortlessly.

The ratings on rods are a bit hit n' miss... shimanos tend to be underrated, some by a considerable way. Grey's tend to be overrated... well mine does at least and i've heard mention of another.
Long rods have some advantages when steering fish around obstacles but they can be a pain when landing a big fish on your own... not too healthy for the tip to be held high when landing a big cod. similarly I've had a haddock stuck on the side of the steep rock I was fishing for about ten minutes with a short rod

 

[atomichaggis]

That would be for a tica surfcaster in the 9 foot range with an action that lets you cast from 3/4 oz. to 4 oz. of rig.

Regarding casting distance, yes a longer rod will cast further than a given shorter rod. Flex action plays into this as well, but that varies with casting style. When the spanish mackies are in striking distance from the surf, The weapon of choice is a 9 or 10 footer, stiff or medium stiff 3oz. capacity and a fast spinning reel.

For playing a big fish a longer rod not only gives you more reach over near shore obstacles, But is in effect a longer spring. It can absorb more shock and save your line. Also, for casting the longer rod allows you to throw more. My rod for heavier chunk bait casting is a 12 foot tica. I've thrown 14 oz with it [10oz lead and a big chunk of bait]

Yes, past a certain point, the price of a rod can be stupid. But something i try to keep in mind is that too cheap a rod represents waste. Rods require someone to manufacture all sorts of hideous crap to build the rod. Then, if it breaks due to poor craftsmanship, rushed construction methods, or inferior hideous crap, Where can you recycle an epoxy coated graphite splinter?

Anybody saltwater flyfish?

Action is more imortant... My 3 short rods cast further than 3 of the 4 longer rods within their range. I reckon it would take a purchase of twice the price to outperform them.

Long rods are for people who dunno what their drag is for

I used the carbon tip section from my snapped shimano as a boom... the rest of it will make a good beating stick or something

I flyfish in saltwater 99.99% of the time.

 

[atomichaggis]

What like this one? (That was a Daiwa Amorphous Whisker Tournament, which hasn't been made for a while but good secondhand ones still go for 300quid easily).

I've now got a very expensive handle for my pond weed scooper!

Ouch!... and you posed for a picture with it lol... I'd have been crying.

 

[atomichaggis]

Interesting fact = Magpie has officially cast an apple 145m! (he has also cast a 5/1/4oz lead 231m ) Not sure if it was with that rod though.

If this is some kind of joke to provoke some odd behaviour then its working... I just need to know what kind of apple and how do I attach it to the leader?

 

[atomichaggis]

Mr x you might be interested to research eyeless rods?
I use the Daiwa Interline models now but also liked the Silstar range, I find this type of rod superb for use in my small boat. There is a trade off from the beautiful action & feel you get in that they are a bugger to thread the line through in the first place.

Those rods look fantastic... can't help wondering if weed gets trapped inside tho?

 

[Magpie]

It was a fun event at a casting comp. Granny Smiths and you had to pass the leader through the apple and tie it off at the bottom, the only concession allowed was a 12" bit of tube on the leader.

You could cast an apple a lot further if you just wrapped it up in tape, the main problem was keeping it on the line because the leader just slices through it so it had to be smooottthhhh or it'd end up sliced and you'd end up on your face.

Sorry mate, as you suggested, I disagree. In my experience, a short rod will not compete in distance terms with a longer rod provided they are of similar standard and the caster is able to use the rod effectively. And there are many other benefits of a longer rod too. To me 10ft is short, indeed that is the length of the shortest rod I own. But to each their own eh!

Don't know how I managed to smile for the picture, I was somewhat pissed off!

 

[Pastor]

Ouch!... and you posed for a picture with it lol... I'd have been crying.

My thoughts exactly.

 

[atomichaggis]

I still imagine it would just slice through sending sliced apple off right... I have to try it tho.
Pendulum or OTG?

Sorry mate, as you suggested, I disagree. In my experience, a short rod will not compete in distance terms with a longer rod provided they are of similar standard and the caster is able to use the rod effectively. And there are many other benefits of a longer rod too. To me 10ft is short, indeed that is the length of the shortest rod I own. But to each their own eh!

Thats the usual response but i'll bet the opinion is never based on medium/heavy lure fishing.
Certainly with surfcasting and super lite spinning a long rod will almost always outperform a shorter one but a spoon of 25 grams has an optimum speed that it can travel thru the air and that is where the baitcaster comes into it's own. I've yet to see anyone punch my usual selection of lures any further... as soon as I do I'll be buying whatever they've got... however long it is.

I tried to convert my girl's dad, who is quite handy with longer spinning rods but he can barely cast in front of himself with a baitcaster... He is also hopeless with a flyrod like you say... Each to their own!

 

[atomichaggis]

My thoughts exactly.

I couldn't smile if I broke my cheapo picasso gun, breaking that rod is a bit like You breaking that shiny gun of yours... We'd all suffer terribly

 

[Magpie]

Exactly the problem! Pendulum mainly, a flat style being far more effective because the sudden direction change of a high style was usually when the apple would part company.

Thats based on my experience plugging with lures from 15 to 40grams. When I need to get a bit of extra range lure fishing I'll use one of my carp rods at 12 or 13ft, but most of the time I'll use my 10ft shimano lure rod because its more comfortable and easier to impart a decent action on the lure.

I use a baitcaster on occasion, an Abu Revo STX which I got for 18g plug tournament casting, but usually I prefer a fixed spool to be honest.

 

[atomichaggis]

Exactly the problem! Pendulum mainly, a flat style being far more effective because the sudden direction change of a high style was usually when the apple would part company.

Thats based on my experience plugging with lures from 15 to 40grams. When I need to get a bit of extra range lure fishing I'll use one of my carp rods at 12 or 13ft, but most of the time I'll use my 10ft shimano lure rod because its more comfortable and easier to impart a decent action on the lure.

I use a baitcaster on occasion, an Abu Revo STX which I got for 18g plug tournament casting, but usually I prefer a fixed spool to be honest.

I'm putting granny smiths on my shopping list. I might try taping the apple a bit at first tho.

wobblers and the likes are even less aerodynamic than stickbaits and spoons so I can see the case for a longer rod... but carp rods... fixed spool... Shocking! The Revo STX is a wee beauty of a reel.
I'm a fan of shimano lure rods even long ones, i just wish they'd ship more trigger grip ones in this direction. 9-10 foot double handed baitcaster based on any number of their lure rods would be ideal for me.

 

[Mr. X]

Wow, you guys have been busy while I've been away! I must admit I am quite taken by those American-style baitcasters, with the small multiplier reel & trigger. Saw a very neat little multiplier in the store at the weekend, I think Abu 6500 on sale but still quite pricey (is this the one you use atomic haggis?) They also had a few combos & the store owner seemed pretty helpful when a woman went in to buy a decent beachcasting set up for herself. Outside the store they had a beachcaster set up with reel, float, weights & hook £35! (I suspect it was not of the finest quality ).

Made a trip down to Swanage Saturday, didn't catch anything. Mainly we tried out the Flounder spoons (maybe Wrasse offcuts was a poor choice of bait!). One of the team tried a weighted jelly shad. The spoons were a tad light (at perhaps 30g-ish -- I've since rebuilt them with a little more weight), so I switch to a big (140mm) clear Maria Angel Kiss towards to end to get a bit closer to what looked like an off shore reef - they cast really well.

Spoke to an older gent that said some decent bass were caught at the far end of the beach last week. A younger angler thought that was probably during/after stormy weather. He also suggested "half-moon shaped slipper limpets" as bait -- must look that up -- he said regular conical limpets were not good though. The local fishing store suggested a couple of very nearby spots. I suspect they might be good night spots as they are under big lights. We were fishing in the middle of the day -- probably the worst time but we wanted to get some fresh air & sun light after the Christmas hols.

I think I have probably got my spinning rod/reel set up sorted now, it worked faultlessly and I didn't have to think about it at all. Just as well, too busy helping others get set up!

Ringless rods?! Foxfish -- you like to be on the cutting edge don't you Is that the shape of things to come? I read a 20 year old fishing book this weekend (Express Fishing Guide) -- it talked about how great the new hollow glass fibre rods are compared to the old solid glass fibre rods & cane rods. It did mention that some thought carbon fibre was the material of the future but the author seemed sceptical because of the extremely high price of the few available at that time.

 

[Magpie]

There's many many different models of 6500's mate, would need more info on that one in particular.

Erm, yes, really you need worms of some sort to trail behind the spoon.

Slipper limpets are a reasonable bait, often used after storms as they get washed up on the shoreline. Had bass and bream on them myself.

Ringless rods aren't that new, there was one called the Cyclops in the 70's iirc, was used at casting tourney by backcasters but was a beach rod primarily. Daiwa have done their Interlines for many years but they don't seem to have taken off over here. Don't know why because as I think Mart said they are well used elsewhere in the world. I'm waiting for a cheap carp one to come up on ebay myself.

 

[Mr. X]

What like this one? (That was a Daiwa Amorphous Whisker Tournament, which hasn't been made for a while but good secondhand ones still go for 300quid easily).

I've now got a very expensive handle for my pond weed scooper!

Making your own travel version?! (Were you exceeding the specificed casting weight or was it just your super strength?)

Worms - yes, should have visited the shop first, I expect they carry them. I see they had mackeral in their freezer.

Another beginner question: We discussed flattie rigs recently. I made up some rigs per atomichaggis' design. Presumably these should be cast and left in position - as if ledgering - rather than retrieved slowly like a Flounder spoon or lure?

BTW I have made up a couple of power ball rigs for casting rubber eels (powerballs 1 pound for a pack of 10 I think in Woolworth -- the hard ones not the soft pastel ones). One with a 1m hook trace, the other with 2m...apparently you can just stick the hook in the ball when casting. I haven't got round to trying them yet. So far I have just trolled eels behind the kayak -- seem to work well. I finally found a shop (Swanage) that carries the spiral leads (Jardine?) that you can twist your mainline around (recommended to me by a Kenyan/Cornish colleage) - expensive but I got 2 to try out: 18g & 30g. I'm thinking the 18g could be used up-line of a light spinner or lure to improve casting and the 30g up-line of a rubber eel, instead of a power ball (I would use a bored bullet but don't want to mess with my current lure set up: braid->15lb mono->swivel-less mini clip set up). I also got a couple of the red slider clips suggested previously for ledgering flattie rigs; flicking through Sea Angler today I see a boat crew out of Llanelli use a big America swivel clip for a similar purpose -- although I suspect that would not be suitable for casting(?).

As well as the spiral/Jardine lead, there are a couple of other specialist leads that appear in all the books but I have yet to find in the stores: I think one is called a Wye of Wyle lead & the other a fold-over lead. I think the former was intended for trolling. It looks like either can be used on the main-line side of a swivel connected to a Flounder spoon or spinner, to ensure the mainline isn't twisted by the spinner.