sled diving within AIDA

[Will]

The recent accident on July 11 would have been prevented if the on-site judges had enforced the depth pre-requisite rule. I am not certain how they were able to circumvent the rule, since it is clearly explained in the official rules for record attempts.

Also, it is eerily similar to Yasemin's accident, where she was attempting a VWT record depth far superior to her training PB also (in her case it was 19m more, and she blacked out at 'around 40m').
One of the lessons here seems to be that there is no substitute for careful and methodical depth progression. Even if a dive to x meters is super-easy, it is reckless to use that as an indicator of what will happen if you throw an extra 15-20m and the pressure of a record attempt into the mix.
Rule 9.2.1 (AIDA v.12) is there for precisely that reason, and I guess this might be what is referred to in the AIDA July board meeting minutes:

Certain issues noted by the judges relating to this attempt may be referred to the AIDA Disciplinary Committee.​

 

[jay cluskey]

This is off-topic to the sled discussion. Join CMAS and have fun alone from us.

:head
AIDA could do without ambassadors like you osuism as well as VWT and NLT .
i think everyone is entitled to their opinion on here off topic or not without the need to tell them were to go:rcard

 

[osusim]

:head
AIDA could do without ambassadors like you osuism as well as VWT and NLT .

Well, let's look to last WRs (in CWT, CNF, whatever)
1st day - BO, heavy samba, DQ - 6 month of ban according to AIDA "friends".
2nd day - BO, heavy samba which clearly PB movements, DQ - another 6 month of ban according to AIDA "friends".
3nd day - clear WR which was never happened with ambassadors like you and Simos. :t

 

[jay cluskey]

I think you missed my point osuism.. never mind .
nice example by the way????
what is "AIDA friends " ?
I've not got an opinion on simos's suggestions I just didn't feel the need to dismiss them so Rudely .
let's get back to the real issues now please ...... , bites lip and unclenches fists ,


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[Simos]

I didn't speak about 6 month ban but even if I had, it's interesting that some of us find a ban for reckless diving (whatever the definition is, I agree with Wal that it must be better defined) extreme and harsh when the subject in question here is the complete removal of 2 disciplines!

Must be because I put all disciplines in the same 'bucket' but on the other hand gradual progression etc apply to all disciplines, so not sure there are many arguments on why should they be treated differently.

Osusim - clearly you are talking about a different type of 'gradual progression': BO at 40m, BO at 30m, BO at 20m, BO at 10m, Samba, WR (if lucky) lol

Also no need to panic or send me to CMAS (even though it does sound a lot like my name coming to think about it! Lol): I have no power whatsoever in AIDA and believe it or not expressing a thought on DB will not ban everyone that has a BO

 

[Rik]

Black-out and fitness to dive

Judges, sometimes in discussion with medical personnel, can choose to bar an athlete to compete further during an competition after an black-out. This option should especially be considered during competitions with one or more disciplines at one day.

It is important to accept that this is not to "punish" the diver for an black-out. There are two important reasons that medically justify such procedure.

The first reason is that it has been experienced that an black-out preceding an second performance can significantly increase the risk of an second black-out. This haven't been yet scientifically explained but it can be assumed that due to the black-out the brain will warn the diver at lower oxygen levels and/or higher carbon dioxide levels of an impeding LMC or BO, compared with the first performance.

The second reason is that recent studies showed that even an "simple" samba can affect a divers cognitive and motor skill up to 90 minutes after the event.

Therefore, especially after an black-out, you are not medically fit to dive and maximum performances should be withheld until the next day. This is also explained during the AIDA Freediver courses.

P.S.
I am currently working on the data of my small sled diving study and will publish it shortly.

 

[annamaria]

The recent accident on July 11 would have been prevented if the on-site judges had enforced the depth pre-requisite rule. I am not certain how they were able to circumvent the rule, since it is clearly explained in the official rules for record attempts.

Excuse me Eric - I have asked you nicely before, and will do so again now: please refrain from comments about my dive - you were not there, you know nothing about it, but you are stating the above comment as a FACT - what on earth do you know about it? How on earth do you think you can make this comment?

How do you dare say I did not do my prerequisite dive? Clearly you have simply decided that I am completely stupid, without knowing the first thing about me OR my dive. Amazingly, you have clearly also simply decided that the judges are completely stupid.

I have said this before and will say it one more time: it is offensive and hurtful to make such comments which are nothing but assumptions. If anyone here wants to know anything about my dive, please ask me and refrain from making things up.

Thank you.

Anna

 

[Mullins]

By the sounds of it, on-the-day physiological state played a big role. So it isn't out of the question that Anna could've completed a clean 125m or even 130m dive prior to the attempt and still blacked out on the official attempt. I think it just shows that for VWT, since the absolute depth is greater than in the self-powered disciplines, the same proportional performance loss if something goes wrong will mean a deeper BO.

 

[efattah]

Excuse me Eric - you were not there, you know nothing about it,

Anna

Actual I know a huge amount about your dive, from the report that YOU wrote about it! In this report is all the information needed to figure out exactly what happened and why. There is no mystery.

First of all you stated in your report that your PB was 115m. If the judges did their part, then the official dive would not have been allowed.

No dive would have occurred.

If no dive would have occurred, then no accident would have occurred.

You ask how can I be so certain of that? The answer is simple; if no dive occurred, no accident would have occurred, with 100% certainty.

If Herbert tried to dive to the same proportion that you attempted (130m/66m), it would be like Herbert doing a 244m variable weight dive, which is more than 100m beyond the current world record.

You yourself made many choices:
- You chose to use a mask, which is difficult and dangerous and created problems during the dive
- You chose to dive despite your health not being optimal
- You chose to increase your PB by a large amount despite the extra stress of the record attempt

Each of us has a right to make choices in our life. You made your choices. You survived and I am happy that you survived. Next time perhaps you will make different choices. That is up to you.

 

[Walrus]

I have observed quite a few bad blackouts on dives that people should have been able to make, which all had a bad squeeze at depth involved. People that should have been easily able to make it breathold wise but weren’t adaquately acclimatised to depth.

The obvious reason would be panic/psychological stress but I think that even if the person was relaxed the stress and shock on the body would result in significantly higher oxygen consumption. Also if there is any fluid in the lungs, possibly swelling of tissue and or minor damage then oxygen transfer at the end of the dive could mean the diver blackouts with a higher oxygen % in their lungs, ie far earlier. So someone getting a bad squeeze at depth could possibly suffer from 10%, 20% or 30% loss in performance. Anyway it’s only my theory so don’t go sticking into a freediving manual.

Maybe my theory is incorrect but to be cautious it wouldn't hurt to bail out on a dive where a bad squeeze is involved.

Cheers,
Wal

 

[annamaria]

Eric. Again: you know nothing about it. In my account I described the last training dive, and the actual dive, not the many training dives I did beforehand. Of course I did my prerequisite dive before, I am not a moron. And the judges present, whom you also slander here without even asking them, were perfectly satisfied that I had done everything I needed and was ready. Of course they checked this, as it is just about one of the most important things on a record attempt!

I dive with a mask and I disagree that it is difficult and dangerous per se. I have been very deep with it without any problems and been able to see perfectly, much better than you ever could with fluid goggles, so I consider it much safer. Something went wrong on this dive - such is life.

My health was perfectly well for all I knew, I felt very good, I could not know that I had low blood pressure. I will certainly check this in future.

I did not dive "much deeper than my PB", see above.

Fact is, my final dive was even 117m, only I did not know it since the Suunto only shows the information below 100m if you plug it in. Don't you think if there had been any doubts about my prerequisite, I would have pushed my ears a bit on that dive to get it done? I did not - it was not necessary. What I was looking for in that dive was to see if my physical condition was good - it was - as I said, I swam up from the dive without a single contraction and without being tired. Only after feeling physically perfect on that dive did I decide to go ahead with the record attempt.

Wal: the squeeze in my case resulted due to contractions starting at 120m on the way up. Hard to bail out on the way up...I had been down to 125m before without any squeeze at all, the squeeze was not from depth as such but from the stress of the contractions.

 

[Will]

Hey Anna,
The easiest way to rebutt Eric would be just to take a photo of your depth gauge in Logbook mode, with the prerequisite dive displayed (depth, dive time, date).
Then the whole subject becomes moot
Otherwise I guess some of the uncertainty comes from the fact that you have mentioned every other deep dive on your blog/FB, and a week after your 110m PB on the 1st July you said that the last week had been terrible training, which doesn't really leave any space for deeper PBs?
Cheers, Will.

 

[annamaria]

hey Will, of course, what is on my blog is totally selective. It is written as and when I feel like it, and in this case, my 120m dive got drowned out by the bad period week I had.

 

[jay cluskey]

just another 2 cents if I may .

Anna has been really open here and I think it's unfair to debate what did or didn't happen without asking her .
the more data and feedback we can gain from people's experiences the better, I think her written account is excellent and eye opening .These accounts are invaluable for research so if we jump on people's backs we will not get any more.
Anna by the sounds of it somebody has distributed a video of the dive which was probably innocently shared by whoever filmed it.


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[annamaria]

Thanks Jay! And thank you, Dave, by the way, too.

 

[georgemiller]

I would like to back Jay up on what has been said. It is brave of Anna to have been so open about a dive that was obviously difficult for a number of reasons. Perhaps we should refrain from speculation, having been given an account of what happened. I have known Anna for years and know her background with both scuba and freediving and found her to be always responsible... and it is extremely unlikely that she would have entered into anything like this without all prerequisites and essential training in place. Anna- please dont feel that you need to prove anything on this forum.

 

[Will]

hey Will, of course, what is on my blog is totally selective. It is written as and when I feel like it, and in this case, my 120m dive got drowned out by the bad period week I had.

Hey Anna,

I'm still a little confused: on the 6th you wrote that you had just had three bad training sessions in a row (""bad, bad training three sessions in a row. Why? Why? Grrrrrrrrr. Tequila, anyone?") then on the 7th you decided to take two days rest before the attempt on the 11th. Which day was the 120m dive?

I'm sure it would be easy for you to clear this up, and I think it was a mistake not to mention it in your otherwise excellent report.
The single greatest criticism that has been voiced is the idea that you weren't ready for an attempt, and the best supporting evidence that you were ready (a 120m dive) is the only detail lacking from the report.
Also, given that it was your deepest VWT dive, I'm sure everyone would love to hear about it!

Will.

P.S. You know our position against AIDA-regulated sled-diving, but I was truly relieved to hear you were safe after the incident. You're a good freediver, and I know you'll be back to impress us soon, hopefully in the athletic disciplines where you don't get to hitchhike down and "float up like a cork"!

 

[efattah]

I have suffered from extremely low blood pressure four times in my diving career. All four times occurred before extremely stressful situations.

World Cup 2000 (France): The day of the constant weight competition
World Cup 2000 (Switzerland): The day of the constant weight competition
Florida 2001: The day I needed to make the prerequisite for the constant weight record
Vertical Blue 2010: First attempt at 100m CWT

In each case, I found myself with extremely low blood pressure on the morning of the dive. It was obvious. During my pack stretches I would be unable to pack without a blackout/samba. In each case the low blood pressure created various problems on the dive or during the packing. In each case the low blood pressure lasted for 2-3 days after the dive. So, in my case it seems that prior to a very scary/stressful dive, my blood pressure drops drastically and remains low for 2-3 days.

One weird side effect of this is that my warm-up dives are incredibly good. Low BP helps you hold your breath, as long as you don't push it to the max. If pushing it, the low BP nails you in the end.

At Vertical Blue 2010, I knew my BP was low before I even got in the water. I knew I had almost no chance to pack to the limit. I ended up aborting at 2m as I felt a packing blackout coming-- I avoided the BO but the dive was over.

Personally I think a 10m increase in depth is extremely ambitious. Of course it is up to each person to decide what sort of increase they consider safe or not.

I am not a woman, but I do know other female divers that report they are unable to hold their breath at all during their hormonal cycle. But I do not know any more than that. Anyway it is something to be careful about in the future.

When I have a big dive planned, I always do various tests in the morning:
- Oximeter test to check for O2 consumption rate and contraction tolerance
- Pack stretches and/or ATRC test for blood pressure and adrenal gland functioning
- Spirometer test to check lung volume and packing volume
- Squat test to check for residual lactate accumulation in the legs

The goal is simple; try to eliminate unknown variables before they create problems. It does pay off -- I have been competing for 11 years and I have never had a blackout or samba in a competition or record attempt. I'm not saying blackouts are totally avoidable. If I compete long enough it will happen sooner or later. But one can still try to take measures to avoid them as much as possible. I think the most important thing after a blackout is to sit down and examine all the details and try to figure out what happened so it can be avoided in the future. Taking the attitude that 'there was nothing I could possibly have known or done differently' is not very productive in my opinion.

 

[pehtran]

hopefully in the athletic disciplines where you don't get to hitchhike down and "float up like a cork"!

This is a low blow. I think you have no reason to put down this disciplines in such a manner unless there is a personal interest involved that I do not know about. In fact I still can not understand how one can perceive NL divers as only freeriders or even as corks. I know a couple of things about this sport and I have always had great respect for NL achievements. We just have to remember the reaction to the Mussimu's and Herbert's NL dives - they were met with a great admiration by the majority of freediving community and yet you imply that this records were merely a hitchike ride up and down. Not very nice and uncalled for, I think.

 

[CEngelbrecht]

I have been competing for 11 years and I have never had a blackout or samba in a competition or record attempt.

(If I may, I seem to recall that you suffered a packing blackout few meters into the dive in Montreux in 2000. Or am I wrong?)

But otherwise a very good post.