sled diving within AIDA

[Walrus]

Safety issues aside,
I can't think of any other sports where self powered and machine powered events are under the same banner. Put as simply as possible, No limits is machine powered, the diver simply hangs on for the ride. I would definitely not call no-limits “free diving”, a sled setup is a lot of equipment….
I agree with Will that categories like no limits does take away from the purely athletic side.

I know when I was new to the sport I thought that no-limits divers were the best, because they were the deepest. Actually when compared to the days when Jaques Mayol, Enzo and Bob Croft were competing, the actual bottom times in no-limits now haven't really increased. It's mostly just having better & faster sleds. Of course with the increase in depth the risk of DCS has hugely increased. When is comes to actual freediving ability anyone with knowledge of the sport knows that breathhold isn't really an issue with no-limits. To %99 of the population with no concept of the sport and probably no desire to research it they wouldn't see it this way when they read something in the media.

It's pretty weird compared to other sports, like mixing power boats with rowing boats, cycling with motorbikes. Imagine this “In the sport of 2 wheel racing Joe blogs has set a new track record with 2min 12s in the internal combustion category. Meanwhile Fred has a new track record of 15min 10s in the pedal powered category.” :t

Technically Tanya Streeter is still the deepest female diver in the world, be curious if anyone here on DB thinks she was any where near the level that Natalia currently is ?

cheers,
Wal

 

[efattah]

Based on Herbert's dive (which included a BO on the ascent near the bottom), it seems to go any further in no-limits you would need to
1) dive without packing or even submax inhale to avoid the blackout from narcosis on the bottom
2) be able to dive for 9 minutes or more, even with a submax inhale, to perform all the required apnea deco stops starting at 40m

This would make it about as hard as breaking the record in static apnea except still a lot more dangerous. But I think to break the no-limits record without injury you're going to have to be one hell of an athlete (as anyone is who can do a 9 minute dive without packing).

 

[chrismar]

Or just bend and mend. It's heading that way.

 

[Mullins]

Based on Herbert's dive (which included a BO on the ascent near the bottom), it seems to go any further in no-limits you would need to
1) dive without packing or even submax inhale to avoid the blackout from narcosis on the bottom
2) be able to dive for 9 minutes or more, even with a submax inhale, to perform all the required apnea deco stops starting at 40m

Or 3) have a modest breathhold but be willing to accept huge risk.

 

[Simos]

Based on Herbert's dive (which included a BO on the ascent near the bottom), it seems to go any further in no-limits you would need to
1) dive without packing or even submax inhale to avoid the blackout from narcosis on the bottom
2) be able to dive for 9 minutes or more, even with a submax inhale, to perform all the required apnea deco stops starting at 40m

This would make it about as hard as breaking the record in static apnea except still a lot more dangerous. But I think to break the no-limits record without injury you're going to have to be one hell of an athlete (as anyone is who can do a 9 minute dive without packing).

Apologies for the naive question Eric but since assistance like the EQEX is allowed, couldn't someone pack, then empty lots of the air in a container before going really deep and the breathe again that air in at the ascent around 40m?

 

[rddk]

In my 5 cent opinion, the judge is there for see that the record follow all the standard required for be certified and the organized must check all the saefty, i can't accept people saying that is AIDA responsability or judge if somthing bad happens during the attempt, the athles that make the record is the one that should care about his life and must plan everything BEFORE attempting the record.
Also stop saying that since the sport is called "freediving" going down with a sled mean that you're not free, cuz in my language"freediving" is called apnea that means breathold and does not involve anything free or not free, and btw greek has invented apnea so the word is ἄπνοια that is apnea...

 

[Walrus]

Hi rddk,
that is the language gap, think originally the term "freediving" came about because you are free of scuba tanks. Pretty much most no-limits dives actually do use scuba tanks to inflate the lift bags. I just meant CWT and NO-LIMITS whilst both breath-hold diving and apnea are very different. To say that CWT is self powered and NO-LIMITS is machine powered would be the easiest way to describe that difference to someone unfamiliar with the sport. And no I don't think self powered and machine powered events should somehow be under the same banner, even if it is in a different category. The measurement ie depth in m is the same, so there will always be a comparison.

I can't imagine anyone being able to EQ going deeper then 218m without packing, or less then full lung volume ?!

 

[Mullins]

Wet equalising?

 

[Walrus]

Wet equalising is already risky, combine that with severe narcosis is even worse. A blackout at depth from narcosis with sinuses filled with water.......

I think I would rather risk DCS then water in the lungs at depth, generally no coming back from that :-(

 

[Mullins]

I'm sure some would do it though. Several already have.

 

[ThomasB]

Hi rddk,
that is the language gap, think originally the term "freediving" came about because you are free of scuba tanks. Pretty much most no-limits dives actually do use scuba tanks to inflate the lift bags. I just meant CWT and NO-LIMITS whilst both breath-hold diving and apnea are very different. To say that CWT is self powered and NO-LIMITS is machine powered would be the easiest way to describe that difference to someone unfamiliar with the sport. And no I don't think self powered and machine powered events should somehow be under the same banner, even if it is in a different category. The measurement ie depth in m is the same, so there will always be a comparison.

Murat latest attempt was free of tanks and powered machine. Wet eq and frc.

 

[Siku]

Based on Herbert's dive (which included a BO on the ascent near the bottom)...

This is new information, to me at least. How do you know Herbert BO'd at the bottom Eric? What would have caused that? O2 toxicity?

 

[rddk]

The only problem with wet equalization is that is easier to have water into lungs in case of BO. Narcorsis affect also people that equalize with air, and talking about risk everybody knows the risk connected with paking so everithing has a pro and cons.
Here there are people that are making philosophy and talking with a romantic approach, cuz with freediving you're free of tanks but you've a main line to follow so that's not free cuz you've a lanyard that block you there, so stop hiding behind a finger and trying to play with word.
I prefer people that say ii dun like NTL cuz in my opinion is dangerous or somthing else, but leave people free to choiche if wanna risk doing NTL record or dive. Some people like to do Base jumpiing, proxmity flying and stuff like that, is they're choiche and not my life so they can do what the like. And don't say that NTL has a bad impact for pubblic opinion, cuz people can injury or die in the worst cases, because you just need to turn on tv and see MMA fights with people in cages that smash heads on the ground with blood and stuff like that and have million of follower.

 

[cebaztian]

Since I left the topic, I will not try to get it back on track again.

Let us not talk about stopping sled diving or not.
It will not stop.
Question is: should AIDA ratify sled records.

I think not (for reasons stated in this thread)

I think a group of people (originating from AIDA) should set up a small Sled diving organization that handles the sled diving records.

Apnea Sled Diving

Sebastian

 

[sebastien murat]

On the point of the term 'free' in freediving:
It seems to me that its easy to get trapped by artificial constructs that don't really exist, except when one isn't diving. Why limit yourself or box yourself in labeling something one thing or another. What is free and what does it matter?
Clearly, some divers wear suits to get better slip and stay warm. Others goggles and weights. Some want a line that everyone toes on an equal footing,but as long as you've technological improvement how can you. You want to compare athletes but how can't you when the personal technology is different. You could even resort to mentioning environmental conditions as assisting in some instances.

On the point of view regarding wet equalization:
Wet equalization with full lungs not so good if you BO
Wet equalization with empty lungs..... I think its hard (impossible maybe) to have the the glottis without effort. Did some dives on empty and took effort to open up the airways ...probably huge blood-shift caused by absorption of lung gases, i.e., the airways at the start are not like those end-dive...but maybe that's just me, don't know

On the point of view of long statics:
The approach of increasing body O2 stores, specifically lung O2 stores is strictly limited, quite apart from the increased risk of DCI, narcosis and BOs. The approach of pre-lowering metabolic rate (i.e., the burn rate) has more merit, since it overcomes all of these problems. It is possible to lower your burn rate to 75% below basal (sleep) rates. My group recently did some tests and we managed to induce this state whilst breathing* which would suggest that breath-holding capacity can be substantially prolonged.


* Breathing rate was reduced to an unforced rate of less than 2 breaths/minute

 

[rddk]

Since I left the topic, I will not try to get it back on track again.

Let us not talk about stopping sled diving or not.
It will not stop.
Question is: should AIDA ratify sled records.

I think not (for reasons stated in this thread)

I think a group of people (originating from AIDA) should set up a small Sled diving organization that handles the sled diving records.

Apnea Sled Diving

Sebastian

AIDA has already setted the rules and has all the stuff to ratify sled records, so it's a nonsense create a section only for sled diving, we all know that any sport has a certain amount of risk and freediving is included, doing maths or too much teory wouldn't help us at all since we still know so little about freediving, all of us will laugh thinking about doctors that says to Enzo Maiorca that he would have died passing 50 mts, some people are still making this mistake! I totally agree with Sebastien Murat: pioneer has existed and thanks to god will always exist! Not certifing record would not change anything, adding that Aida Internatinal has left the decision to Aida National is certified or not sled records and that's a nonsense! In my country this attitude is cleaning your hands like Ponzio Pilato had done with Crist.

 

[Walrus]

A couple of WR holders have told me they regard CWT and CNF as the only true unassisted DIVING disciplines which I agree with. They both require free swimming and they can be performed without a dive line which is only there for safety reasons and can't be touched. (with exception to the grab at the bottom plate). CWT is what most people actually do recreationally. FIM can only be done when there is a rope there, you are pulling and not free swimming. In terms of equipment advantages you can compare CWT to bike racing, sure bikes become lighter&faster, you have more streamlined body suits for events such as time trial. This doesn't change the fact that it is still a self powered discipline.

Perhaps No-Limits will continue, as it is now it's already in a very high risk state, because of DCS and Narcosis. This will get even worse if the WR depth can actually be improved upon. This is also true for the other disciplines although DCS risks are still much lower in comparison. It does sounds like DCS is fast becoming a hard limit for NLT's. At least twice now AIDA has temporarily stopped ratifying NLT's and had a major review of safety standards. Another reason why I think AIDA should stop ratification is because they are all volunteers. Why spend so much time on this to please a minority of divers when time could be spent elsewhere, or just on themselves?
CMAS dropped NLT's, then they also dropped CWT, they have bought back CWT recently after a long gap.

cheers,
Wal

 

[sebastien murat]

"Why spend so much time on this to please a minority of divers when time could be spent elsewhere, or just on themselves?"
Couldn't agree with you more!

"This doesn't change the fact that this is still a self powered discipline."
Also true, but if I showed up with a mechanical gizmo that allowed me to increase propulsion efficiency (i.e., no slip) and only required, say, pumping my arms, then according to your definition it would also be ok?? Also, how would you feel if I showed up with a suit that trapped a gas layer on its surface (actually possible now) so that there was essentially no skin friction (75% of all power generated is wasted on overcoming skin friction) and you had a conventional suit?
I think if you're looking to standardize the sport and take it to a respectable level then it should involve minimizing equipment to the absolute minimal level to ensure diver safety, much like in ocean swimming and the swim leg of triathlon races.

"A couple of WR holders have told me they regard CWT and CNF as the only true unassisted DIVING disciplines ..."
Just because they regard it so doesn't necessarily make it so.

"They both require free swimming and they can be performed without a dive line which is only there for safety reasons and can't be touched. (with exception to the grab at the bottom plate)."
The line is also there for orientation. I've yet to see someone doing a world record with no reference line.

"DCS and Narcosis.....will get even worse if the WR depth can actually be improved upon....It does sounds like DCS is fast becoming a hard limit for NLT's"
Some 70 years ago a fella inadvertently plunged a seal to 300m, i.e., before the seal had emptied its lungs. This resulted in the seal promptly dying from DCI. So, based on a pretty well adapted animal, it would seem that if divers think that they can continue diving as they do over shallower depths, and get away with, then, no surprises here: your probably right. Bottom line: if you're going to dive to those depths then relying only on your physical attributes, your skill at shallower depths, and some deluded romantic notions one has managed to generate living on some mountain-top somewhere, then one is probably a fool ... you simply must do your homework as this stuff will not hold you up as anything special or worth preserving. However, it will swallow you up and/or spit you out without a second thought. I'm seeing a lot of the former and not much of the latter. Anyhow, its not rocket-science, as all the answers are already out there in the literature of diving, if only divers could be bothered to read it.

Finally, No-limits is just a (technical) adventure, an experiment. Kill the spirit of adventure and you do the world a great disservice

 

[Mullins]

Out of interest, did this absent-minded chap (hate that "oops, I've just offed another marine mammal" feeling) happen to replicate the seal's normal dive profile?

 

[sebastien murat]

Fortunately we have ethics now. I'll see if I can locate the document. I'll get back to you