sled diving within AIDA

[sebastien murat]

This is the reference:
Scholander, PF. (1942). Experimental investigations on the respiratory function in diving mammals and birds.

Its a book. I've actually read it online once (for free), but can't remember where. Otherwise it might be in a sizable university library.

 

[rddk]

"Why spend so much time on this to please a minority of divers when time could be spent elsewhere, or just on themselves?"

so since is a minority why care about em? In my country that's called racism.... We should respect even a minority of divers, if you look to numbers you'll see really few divers doing some discipline like cnf so we should took it away no? What time did you spent on it? Just the diver spend time on it and the judge just the day for ratify it, so can't see this much loss of your preciuos time.

 

[sebastien murat]

Point taken Fab, but what I think is being referred to here is the promotion and backing of a very risky endeavor, which I'm not sure is always good

 

[Kars]

Sebastiens remark of needing to change tactics for deeper dives, strike me as a mechanic that is true for the total of freediving progression.

In the beginning people would benefit from hyperventilation, until they hit this tactics limit. They'll do this rather soon. Many techniques seem to have a range of practical use. Beyond their range other techniques need to be learned and employed.

I don't know what happened to Herbert, but if I may believe Eric's 'BO at depth' comment Herbert was very lucky to survive. I hope Herbert will recover fully, writes a best selling book, and shares his hard earned lessons so others don't need to experience the same accident.

Love, Courage and Water,

Kars

 

[efattah]

It is according to Herbert's own website that he had a blackout on the bottom. According to my other sources he awoke on the ascent very confused.

 

[chrismar]

"Why spend so much time on this to please a minority of divers when time could be spent elsewhere, or just on themselves?"

so since is a minority why care about em? In my country that's called racism.... We should respect even a minority of divers, if you look to numbers you'll see really few divers doing some discipline like cnf so we should took it away no? What time did you spent on it? Just the diver spend time on it and the judge just the day for ratify it, so can't see this much loss of your preciuos time.

Pretty sure that racism refers to discrimination based on... race.

The participation numbers between CNF and NLT are orders of magnitude apart. I suspect more than half the divers that have done a CWT dive would have done CNF as well in the last 5 years, whereas I'd be surprised if 1% have officially done (or even trained) NLT. Not exactly comparable.

In risk profile, I would consider it to be like parachuting versus BASE jumping. Yes, they both have risks, but the latter has a much worse accident rate and reputation. That's why you don't see the FAI or USPA ratifying BASE jumping events or records. I fail to see why AIDA couldn't see itself the same way?

 

[Walrus]

Yes I admit it, I'm racist, I judge people by the colour of their sled. :duh

 

[rddk]

Point taken Fab, but what I think is being referred to here is the promotion and backing of a very risky endeavor, which I'm not sure is always good

Seb i agree that saefty iis the first thing and in clear that if people wanna go on with sled diving somthing must be changed in the way of approching freediving as we has said in France, but closing our eyes by stop ratifing records would not change things, and you perfectly know that cwt will have the same problems of sled diving since on this vb we have 3 people over 120 mt, one is near 130 mt that mean soon we'll have the same problems of ntl. And all are talking about dcs problems, but none talk about pulmunary edema got from packing and other stuff we have in normal dives and a bad edema could injury you really badly as dcs, but hey what the fuck everybody pack so what's the problem?! Stopping sled diving you'll kill progress and freediving as cmas has done with blocking dept disciplines, they reintroduced em cuz people had balls full of pool water!

 

[Siku]

It is according to Herbert's own website that he had a blackout on the bottom. According to my other sources he awoke on the ascent very confused.

That is truly terrifying! We should be grateful he is alive at all! I wonder if he will make another attempt?


As to NLT - Of course it is freediving, look at the history. Semantic arguments about what 'free' means are pointless.

We did some NLT sled dives in our club this summer and it was both great fun and useful training. most of the dives were to approx 18m but I also did an NLT pb of 30m. I'm pretty sure I'm not at my limit yet so watch this space!

As to NLT WR attempts - It will be fascinating to see if Seb's approach bears fruit as it theoretically should.

Would it be possible to pack like hell, descend to 10m, exhale everything into a device like Herbert has used, perform a Seb-style-NLT dive to 300m, return to 10m, inhale the air from the device, decompress, and ascend?

As to DCS - It's amazing that the CWT numbers we're seeing in VB this year would have been NLT WRs just 15 years ago. I think we have to accept and come to terms with the fact that we are witnessing the golden age of freediving. Sooner or later a limit will be reached beyond which it becomes only a case of how much risk an individual and the community is willing to tolerate.

As to AIDA ratifying events - this is a really difficult issue because it cuts to the heart of this question: Will we, as a community, continue the project of advancing freediving WRs when the limiting factor is DCS risk?

 

[sebastien murat]

This thing about safety.... I find it ironic. Here and there I read about guidelines regarding rules for this and that, but if you strip it down there's no meat in the safety side of it, with much of what is practiced actually outdated and, considering what is undertaken, not very progressive. In fact, through my eyes much of what I see and hear regarding deep diving involves quick-fixes for junkies. That's because divers merely convert their approach to verticality with the one they use for static and horizontality, e.g., packing, and that simply puts you in a really precarious situation. Considering what is actually known, seemingly however not by the freediving community, I'm blown away at the level of ignorance and almost zealot beliefs out there, especially at the higher levels. Maybe its a good thing AIDA doesn't ratify no-limits any longer, 'cause they're way out of their depth. And, with respect to deep `propelled´ diving, if I were them, I 'd reconsider it until I did my homework 'cause there too a disgruntled victim could easily throw a liability lawsuit at them for failure to implement/promote best diving practice and, hence, adequate duty of care, again considering what is known. It really boggles the mind why the tech scuba scene is so much more knowledgeable and progressive in their field despite what I might consider as equal or greater risk taking, but here its going either sideways or backwards.

Just my opinion.

 

[Siku]

Seb please can you spell it out?

Are you saying we should be diving empty And that sticking to packing etc. is outmoded and unsafe?

Surely this approach can't break WRs in CWT!?

Apologies for asking dumb questions but this is the place to dispel ignorance!

 

[sebastien murat]

I don't know if one should be diving on empty or not, that depends on several factors; for me, at least, it seems to be the case. However, I do know packing (even from experience) is clearly not a/the solution for pushing the deep envelope, i.e., safely.

"Surely this approach can't break WRs in CWT!?"
Show me a diver who has really (and I mean really) invested the years in trying to do so. Personally, for me I was better on empty, but then I only reached a modest level compared to what has been achieved by others, and at 44 its been all over for me in that department for years.

 

[trux]

... and at 44 its been all over for me in that department for years.

Fortunately Natalia Molchanova does not know she is too old, otherwise she could fail setting new world records all the time, even being 50 years old

 

[Mullins]

Eric had a pretty solid go at empty (or at least not full) diving.

 

[sebastien murat]

Fortunately Natalia Molchanova does not know she is too old, otherwise she could fail setting new world records all the time, even being 50 years old

With all due respect to Natalia, there are no so many professional athletes in freediving and the dust hasn't settled. Reminds me of the time when Le Sauce was pulling off big perfs in the late 1990 when the rest of were still fumbling around; he was in his fifties

 

[trux]

Yes, that exactly why I think it is not too late for you either, Seb

 

[sebastien murat]

Eric had a pretty solid go at empty (or at least not full) diving.

As for myself, I can say that on full, I suck.
When I didn't suck so much I can say that after some 3-4 years of punishing volumes of empties (no fins) I could easily do what I did on full and then surpassed my pb by some 20 odd meters
The problem with empties is essentially one of how to equalize beyond say +40m ... that's why the guns really get put off. There's no scope for comparison unless you can equalize. For those hovering in the < 40m range (most mortals) it's an easy test, if you can spare the time.

I was thinking of an analogy for what freediving has become. I don't think I'm too far off the mark when I say:
Strapping on helmet, jumping off roof whilst drinking bottle of scotch (really quickly) .... just to see if I can jump higher than the last time. All the while, thinking, "I should be right, 'cause I'm safe and I can hold my liquor". And then, doing it all over again, but from a greater height, and maybe with a better helmet! Of course, some are alcoholics and can hold their liquor better than others, but the height that's altogether another thing, 'cause a little bit higher makes all the difference.

Probably best to reassess, not drink, have a reasonable helmet, and use a mattress to cushion the fall

 

[mystiach]

As for myself, I can say that on full, I suck.
When I didn't suck so much I can say that after some 3-4 years of punishing volumes of empties (no fins) I could easily do what I did on full and then surpassed my pb by some 20 odd meters

Yes, but divers can develop a lot over 3-4 years, especially if training hard; isn't it possible that your inhale PB could have increased by twice that?

 

[sebastien murat]

No, because I tried both ways and the results, after lots of trials under highly consistent conditions, were crystal clear. Also, one can't just look at your total O2 stores, which granted are higher on full. You have to consider accessibility to those stores and the rate at which they're being used up; the latter of these will also determine your tolerance to hypoxia : a higher metabolic reduces your tolerance of hypoxia and increase the risk of BO. A common misconception, is to assume that because you're legs (and arms) feel fresher on full that this must mean it is an energetically more cost-effective strategy, but you have to think about your brain, because that's the one that drives the boat!

Here's a recent article that came out that may interest you (attached). I know we've discussed this previously, and perhaps these scientists should broaden their research sources before claiming too many original discoveries, but it should raise some important thoughts in you, but be careful because it overlooks a couple of critical shortcomings if you're thinking of applying it to yourself. Anyway, I'm happy to discuss the Ys and Yknots.

 

[Siku]

How many divers can actually undergo complete alviolar collapse without suffering lung squeeze?