sled diving within AIDA

[Alexx]

Don't have time to read all this philosophy, so I apologize if this was already written here or somewhere else.

Since the beginning of NL, there wasn't enough engineering knowledge involved in sled designs. Systems far more complex than a ballast, rope, brake, pressurised tank and a baloon are taking care of people's lifes everyday... I still can't believe that nobody came to idea of inverting the inflation logic. Instead of activating inflation, the diver should prevent inflation all the way down by his own will and power. Default action of the system should be inflation. At the moment of losing ability to prevent inflation, the system should inflate automaticaly, relying on simple and redundant mechanical solutions. In case of a failure of any of those redundant systems, the sled should return immediately. AIDA made a FAILURE and is RESPONSIBLE for allowing do-it-yourself-in-your-own-garage sleds. There should have been some limits in No limits.

A proper safety system to recover the athlete at anytime in a rapid manner should be employed at all times.

This is NOT enough! What means "proper" and who says if it's "proper"?

As an engineer (although electrical, not mechanical), I find the regulations regarding sled diving insufficient and therefore I agree with NL and VWT withdrawal until resolving this issues. With all due respect to everyone's expertise, freedivers and medics aren't the only ones who should be involved in these questions.

 

[IUSM]

Hello IUSM. Could you enlighten why you are promoting Skandalopetra while rejecting NLT/VWT? Isn't Skandalopetra just a rudimentary version of No Limits?

Hello Trux,
Skandalopetra in Italy is regulated depending on athletes category.
The major category (Elite) has a maximum of 50 meters deep.
The team is made up of two athletes: the diver and the assistant for recovery.
At the same depth is the least time spent in recovery.
The Skandalopetra not want to be a competitive sport but historic - reminiscent of the spongers, like the FIS Telemark :
http://www.fis-ski.com/uk/disciplines/telemark/

 

[trux]

IUSM, yes I know what Skandaloptra is, and how it is regulated. I just wonder why you support Skandalopetra when you reject VWT and NLT? On my mind there is little difference between Skandalopetra and No Limits, except of the limitiation on the equipment at Skandalopetra.

 

[rddk]

Why banning NL and VWT if you dislike them just do not make attempts, scuba diving is considered as a saefty activity but accidents like MDD happens even if you respect all the decompression stops, and any sport has it's own risk. For common people freedivers will always be mad people

 

[Alexx]

Any sport has it's risk, that's true. But...serious sports take actions to make it safer.

You mentioned scuba... Well, a simple and noninteligent device like scuba tank has to be certified. Behind the certificate stands a signature of a person. Educated and qualified to sign the certificate. That person holds responsibility for it's signature.

If a building collapses, what happens to the construction engineer who signed the project? What happens to sled designer in case of malfunction?

Lets go back to sports...serious ones. Anyone heard of "Zylon"? No, it's not something from SF movies. It's a synthetic polymer. Among other uses, it's used in Formula 1 as wheel restraint cable. Remember 20 years ago, when tires went airborne for hundreds of meters after car crash? Did you see it recently and does it happen so often like 20 years ago? Well, there is a RULE saying that all cars have to be equiped with wheel restraint cable. But not any cable. The cable has to meet specific and described standards with test procedures covered in detail. Here's the example of such rules for a simple device like one cable -> http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/0C80F79811F5858BC125744300356BE7/$FILE/13_fia_wheel_restraint_cables.pdf

It takes money and effort. Human life didn't have a price last time I checked. I don't see such effort about sled equipment design. There was significant progress in physiology, which is magnificent, but now the whole sport has to elevate to a more serious level.

 

[Unclejake]

... I still can't believe that nobody came to idea of inverting the inflation logic. Instead of activating inflation, the diver should prevent inflation all the way down by his own will and power.

Agreed. I partly designed a sled like that in 2010, but we did not build it.

Our VWT sled has a similar feature. It will not descend unless the diver holds a sprung lever closed.

EDIT: I am going off topic again. Sorry. The debate is only: Should AIDA stop ratifying VWT and NLT attempts?

 

[Alexx]

EDIT: I am going off topic again. Sorry. The debate is only: Should AIDA stop ratifying VWT and NLT attempts?

I wouldn't agree about this what we wrote is offtopic, since the safety is what caused this debate

My final oppinion, no it shouldn't stop ratifying sled disciplines. It should only postpone ratification until specifying the technical part of the rules concerning safety in more detail.

 

[Mullins]

Safety is about half of what caused the debate The other half is the question of whether the things sled diving measures are things we value as sporting / athletic attributes.

 

[Alexx]

A sport is an organized, competitive, entertaining, and skillful activity requiring commitment, strategy, and fair play, in which a winner can be defined by objective means.

Only the bolded part is incomplete to be able to give it the value of sport At present time, the organisation doesn't want to accept the responsibility of organising competitions.

If something goes wrong, it's not AIDA's fault. If it goes well, hurray, we've got a new AIDA record

 

[chrismar]

For those that think that only NRs are where accidents occur, perhaps you could remember Loic & Audrey's deaths, plus Carlos & Fred's injuries from the top of my head. Injuries & deaths have occurred with the best trained and most experienced sled diving safety teams. That tells me that there are inherent risks that we have not been able to mitigate yet. I cannot think of a way to do so without also precluding everyone without a bundle of cash to set such a record. Do we really want a discipline that relies more on the size of your wallet than anything else?

As Will stated, you could spent enormous amounts to get an amazing setup and smash records. That's fine and it's done in motorsport amongst others. However the FIA doesn't recognise these. I believe in the same separation in our sport, for a host of reasons.

 

[Mullins]

Alexx - pretty much anything can be a sport. The question is, should AIDA associate itself with this one?

 

[Alexx]

Alexx - pretty much anything can be a sport. The question is, should AIDA associate itself with this one?

I understand perfectly what you say (a place for thumbs-up smiley)

It should associate itself if it's ready to do it properly. If it isn't ready, it should drop it. That answer is logical for most things in life, it's a cliche. Nothing good comes out of being in between, like that last sarcastic sentence in my previous post

 

[rddk]

Please don't mention audrey cuz that was an announced suicide 3 saetfy divers for 160+ metres even a baby can undestand that is an insane thing.
If the discussion has born for saefty reason i accept it with no problem and best thing is try to find out a good solution like a saefty protocol, but i do not accept that NL and VWT has no sport value cuz at this point doing a static is the same thing it has no difficulties you just stand and do not move on breathold... All of you knows that is not so easy and it has lot of difficulties to make a good static same thing for a good sled dive that's my 1 cent opinion.

 

[vali]

perhaps besides all those pertinent opinions, this thread should have a poll...

 

[jay cluskey]

No-limits is a piece of cake from an athletic standpoint. Only money and logistics are difficult.

Even Herbert himself said, his 214m no-limits dive 'didn't even feel like a 2 minute static....'

Chest flexibility and equalizing and the main issues, which are easy to train.

efattah.

love it eric

i respect all the top divers who have gone below 150 meters at NLT and those who are breaking their own national records at this discipline.

a relative newcomer went to egypt last year and became the first UK diver to go to 100m for reasons i do not know ? to prove a point .. to who ? can he do depth physically definately not .a box ticked and an BIG EGO satisfied there is no glory in doing this real glory springs from the silent conquer of our own EGOS.

NL and VW are not AIDA competition disciplines yet AIDA recognises the records so aida needs to implement regulations and minimum standards or else AIDA shall have to, along with accepting good publicity when we see records broken, shoulder some blame when it goes horribly wrong.
AIDA needs to stop average divers supplanting physical abillity with mechanical propulsion to depths were it is impossible to get to a safe depth under their own steam. The EGO resists any understanding that shakes it so AIDA needs to start from the bottom in education right up to the top divers .
For ME there is no overnight success recipie just long hard work and gradual improvement and consolidation
jay

 

[aris ioannidis]

but the frenchman dove with a sled, no?

 

[jay cluskey]

im all for sled diving aris. how long did it take him and enzo to get to 100m ?
i love sarcasm as much as the next idiot but in all seriousness it needs making safer thats my point .

 

[Rik]

I would like to start this post to state that I am not in favor of the discipline of Variable Weight and No Limits at all. However, while I respect the intention of William Trubridge et al. article, I can’t agree with the document. Also I would like to challenge the wisdom to put such an request for the assembly before the official results of the research into the accident Adel Abu Haliqa are reported.

Overall, the article is about both No Limits and Variable Weight, but it doesn’t recognize that there are less accidents in variable weight compared with No Limits. Since the document is about both disciplines, the arguments should also discuss both disciplines separately.

There is already a lot discussed about the used argumentation. However, it hasn’t been noted yet that regards the medical aspects of freediving, we don’t much know what happens beyond 50 meters at all. Using the lack of medical knowledge as argument should also suggest that we should ban all deep diving disciplines, including constant weight en free immersion. Christian Engelbrecht already noted the historic relevance of the disciplines, and there already has been some discussion about the relevance how AIDA could promote safety in freediving in relationship with these disciplines and their competitive and recreational use. Regarding the IOC: Any recognition of AIDA won’t happen as long as the CMAS can represent freediving.

The statistics seems to focus on No Limits, and somehow doesn’t go in to detail in the lack of accidents in Variable Weight. It is also possible to wonder if the numbers are complete, there isn’t an clear definition of which kind of accidents you would like to include to determine an risk comparison, and the numbers are not complete as they at least don’t include all the Dutch records. While the presented numbers are impressive, they are not complete, and it isn’t “hard” evidence at all, in contrary to its presentation.

Personally, I am in favor to limit the use of the disciplines of No Limits and Variable Weight. However, this should be done on facts and actual professional research, especially after an accident where bias can affect rational thought.

I have therefore advised against voting for the initiative and instead want to propose to perform an thorough professional research to the medical and sociological aspects of these disciplines within the scope of AIDA and the freediving society. Perhaps we could go for the “record as part of research” route, as the CMAS did in the eighties.

 

[efattah]

It is interesting to compare the risks of variable weight compared to no-limits.

There are some major differences. First of all, when done properly, as Herbert has done it, no-limits can actually be quite safe. Redundant mechanisms to get the diver back up -- a 'lift' bag which doesn't need to be inflated because it is solid foam, and so on.

But most important of all, in no-limits the diver has lots of 'air to spare', and so doing an apnea decompression stop (such as Herbert does at 10m for 1'00") is quite possible and in fact absolutely essential (Musimu 209m = no deco stop = decompression sickness).

However, in variable weight there is no possibility for any decompression stop. At Vertical Blue 2011, Walter Steyn dove to 122m in variable weight, and waited at the bottom for 40 seconds, narked and uncertain what was happening. Of course he was accumulating nitrogen at a crazy rate, and then ascended quickly to the surface with no air to spare for any deco stop. He went down on O2 shortly after and escaped any problems. But as the depth increases, it will become virtually impossible to do a variable weight dive without getting DCS, since there is no possibility for any deco until after the dive is over.

So I would say that if you compare the two events, and you perform both events with perfectly engineered safety systems, then variable weight actually becomes the more dangerous event.

On the other hand, take a random diver who doesn't have a sense for the safety required, and no-limits is more dangerous.

 

[trux]

Apart from the safety issues at WVT and NLT, I think that another question should be discussed when deciding about the future of these disciplines at AIDA.

CMAS abandoned depth disciplines around 20 years ago, and their apnea commission was limited to only dynamic apnea (and Jump Blue that is just another variant of dynamics). Last year the CMAS introduced a dozen of new disciplines, including Variable Weight with and without fins, and including a quasi-No-Limits discipline Skandalopetra. That sounds like exchanging of roles - AIDA is becoming the heavy-weight conservative elephant, calling for more and more restrictions and bans, while CMAS almost looks like a young enthusiastic avantgard organisation. Quite funny

The question is whether AIDA really wants focusing only on the purely sportive aspect of freediving, and let all other activities to the CMAS. I suspect that leaving to CMAS the activities that were the exclusivity of AIDA until recently, may just accelerate the disappearance of AIDA, and allow the overtake by the CMAS. Well, perhaps it is the ultimate fate of freediving anyway, so why not.