sled diving within AIDA

[sross]

Well you see, skiing has 4 official disciplines plus combination, speed skiing is not one of them

Just a quick note, the FIS actually sanctions & organizes competitions in 5 Disciplines: Alpine, Nordic, Freestyle, Snowboarding and Others.




Events in the Others category include Speed Skiing, and the FIS organizes regular competitions in the Speed Skiing category. I suppose this is relevant to our discussions here, the FIS introduced a number of safety measures into speed skiing competitions:

• All competitors have to wear a back pad under their suit
• Courses have to be set by trained FIS homologation teams
• FIS events are competitions between athletes, not no-limits record-setting events. Courses are always designed to keep maximum speeds for the top seeded racers to 200 km/h or less (keeps speeds at just crazy levels, the nutbar no-limits pro world speed record is 251 km/hr held by Simone Origone of Italy) Yes, these guys can go faster on skis than your car can on its wheels
• Impermeable, low-drag speed skiing race suits can allow a skier who falls to slide uncontrollably. Before a racer can compete in the 'Classic' high speed events, they must earn placement points in 'Production' events on slower courses wearing Alpine racing suits that are desgned to reduce sliding in a fall

There are many more safety features, developed in response to the myriad ways speed skiers discovered to bang themselves up, but I think you get the idea.

I personally think the most important safety measure is the fact that skiers have to earn their way up to the skill level required to ski using top echelon equipment that lets you reach speeds that can kill an inexperienced athlete.

BTW, if you want to see a back pad in action at a speed skiing race, have a look here, around 6:37:

[ame="http://vimeo.com/3972310"]Intel World Cup speedskiing 2008 on Vimeo[/ame]

Anyhow, maybe there are parallels to the AIDA situation. If Speed Sking, or Downhill events are the equipment-heavy, ultra-dangerous analogues of the sled diving events, perhaps the analogue of the CW, DNF, etc. events would be Nordic skiing events.

Nordic athletes train for endurance and compete with minimalist gear, moving themselves both uphill and downhill using only their own power. The high tech involves strength/weight optimization using lots of carbon in the things attached to their feet- sounds kind of like hardcore finners IYAM. Maybe competitive spearos are analagous to the biathletes.

These two different very breeds of skiers manage to find a home, and get along, under the umbrella of the FIS. There is just an acceptance of the fact that only athletes with superhuman VOmax readings will reach the top of the Nordic discipline, while people who get off on defying death in the disciplines where strength and subtle nuances of equipment tuning make more of a difference, will reach the top of the "get pulled up the hill by a machine, then come down insanely fast" disciplines. Also, yes, everybody has to accept that in the ultra-high speed events there will be casualties: deaths, catastrophic injuries. The speed skiing, alpine skiing edge junkies wouldn't want to compete in a sport without serious risks, and they don't want to hear from the tut-tutting nannies who would deny them their adrenaline fixes.

 

[apneaboy]

I personally think the most important safety measure is the fact that skiers have to earn their way up to the skill level required to ski using top echelon equipment that lets you reach speeds that can kill an inexperienced athlete.

And a discussion on the safest way of doing the discipline(s) from the most experienced out there on sled diving.

It amazes me that we have reached such a limit that DCS may be the biggest problem. Eventually to go deeper we may see a situation where its the total distance travelled before getting into a bell for re compression.


Freedivers are amazing.

 

[Stephan Whelan]

A poll has been added to this thread for people to vote at the request of several contributors.

 

[Rik]

I don't get the poll question. A special assembly meeting, just based on the request, or an referendum among all AIDA members about this topic? It is also an suggestive poll, because it specifically calls for the removal of the sled disciplines, instead of giving a more neutral approach to the topic.

Further, I wonder that if the disciplines of No Limits and Variable Weight would be banned, how would this affect the current record holders in the depth disciplines? I wonder if the proposal committee had any ideas how to deal with the legacy of the current record holder in No Limits and Variable Weight.

Trux and Sross also noted some important aspects in Post #100 and #101. Does the proposal comittee have additional arguments in respect to these aspects and the perception of the disciplines?

 

[vali]

i don't understand why a personal best must be an official one?
ok...i have a witness and my computer and good sense....
if i try to foul someone, in fact i will be the one foulled....
everyone is free to use the sled...
i don't care if AIDA exist or not....for me as an individual, my limits and my pb's are even if AIDA are alive or not....
whatever...

 

[Will]

I would like to start this post to state that I am not in favor of the discipline of Variable Weight and No Limits at all. However, while I respect the intention of William Trubridge et al. article, I can’t agree with the document. Also I would like to challenge the wisdom to put such an request for the assembly before the official results of the research into the accident Adel Abu Haliqa are reported.

As we've stated previously, this proposal is independent of the result of the report on the most recent accident. The view of those who wrote it and support it is that no matter how much time and energy AIDA's limited pool of volunteers invest in incident investigation and writing guidelines, sled diving will continue to tarnish the reputation of our organisation.

Overall, the article is about both No Limits and Variable Weight, but it doesn’t recognize that there are less accidents in variable weight compared with No Limits. Since the document is about both disciplines, the arguments should also discuss both disciplines separately.

It may help to treat them independently, as it's true that there are less accidents in VWT. If NLT was removed as a discipline, we expect that there would just be a shift of the attention and accidents to VWT, though this is speculation.
However even if VWT is perceived as having an acceptable level of risk then the second part of the argument, that both sled-diving disciplines detract from the true athletic disciplines practiced by >99% of freedivers, still applies.

While the presented numbers are impressive, they are not complete, and it isn’t “hard” evidence at all, in contrary to its presentation.

We used as objective a method as possible to retrieve data and analyse risk. Even if the results were somehow exaggerated by 200% they would still show a HUGE difference in relative risk (>100 times more) in the sled-disciplines.

Chris Engelbrecht's point about the historic significance of the sport is the only supporting argument that has any substance.
However, to reiterate, if it wasn't already a discipline then NLT definitely wouldn't be added to AIDA operations now. What does this say about its value?
NLT was once freediving's main vehicle for publicity. This is no longer the case: the sport is outgrowing its origins as a stunt, and becoming something truly athletic, pure and beautiful. Now not only is sled-diving holding it back from reaching its true potential as an athletic discipline, but it is also casting a pall of deaths and controversy into the mix.

 

[deepRelax]

Freediving is more than an athletic discipline, there's a huge psychological part to it.
The athletic part of freediving is not essential.
Freediving is at its essence about harmony between your body and mind, i.e. understanding, control, acceptance, ...
You don't need to do anything to enjoy the essence of freediving, static breath-hold in a pool is enough.
If you add depth to the breath-hold, you definitely add a big dimension to it.
This is why NLT especially is so essential to freedivers, you have both the breath-hold inner part and the depth or outer part.
NLT is FANTASTIC and BEAUTIFUL !
Freedivers need more education and understanding of their physiological abilities, and federations need more guidelines to make NLT and VWT more secure.
But freediving in general is a dangerous activity if performed without proper security. Compare it to car racing, speed skiing, ... You can minimize risk but you can't eliminate it if you're pushing the limits.
Aida could help and contribute making NLT and VWT more secure for more people.

 

[Aber]

Well, deepRelax, I don't think you will get anywhere in any major sport without tuning both body and mind. If you are not focused and mentally as well as physically prepared, Bolt would e.g. not get anywhere near his best times in a sprint, nor will a marathon runner be able to get close to his potential. The importance of mental training and focus is not something specific for freediving. That's a myth. But of course, some sports are more mentally challenging than others and some are more physically challenging than others. CW demands that you are in top shape both mentally and physically.

I think almost all divers can appreciate a good NL dive, but many of us value a CW dive more for obvious reasons pointed to in many posts in this thread.

I agree with those who think that a NL record dive gets more attention than deserved compared to the attention a CW record dive gets. Herbert Nitsch's 124m CW dive is a much greater athletic achievement than his 214m NL dive. It's easy to understand why divers like Dave Mullins, Martin Stepanek and Will Trubridge wants to change this. And so do I.

 

[deepRelax]

Well, deepRelax, I don't think you will get anywhere in any major sport without tuning both body and mind. If you are not focused and mentally as well as physically prepared, Bolt would e.g. not get anywhere near his best times in a sprint, nor will a marathon runner be able to get close to his potential. The importance of mental training and focus is not something specific for freediving. That's a myth. But of course, some sports are more mentally challenging than others and some are more physically challenging than others. CW demands that you are in top shape both mentally and physically.

I think almost all divers can appreciate a good NL dive, but many of us value a CW dive more for obvious reasons pointed to in many posts in this thread.

I agree with those who think that a NL record dive gets more attention than deserved compared to the attention a CW record dive gets. Herbert Nitsch's 124m CW dive is a much greater athletic achievement than his 214m NL dive. It's easy to understand why divers like Dave Mullins, Martin Stepanek and Will Trubridge wants to change this. And so do I.

You didn't understand what I wrote.
Let me help, from your reply:
1) "CW demands that you are in top shape both mentally and physically" ...
=> Sure, like all other freediving disciplines. Couldn't agree more.
2) "I think almost all divers can appreciate a good NL dive"
=> Sure, isn't it great
3) "many of us value a CW dive more for obvious reasons pointed to in many posts in this thread"
=> That's ok, do what you wanna
=> I like all disciplines
3) "Herbert Nitsch's 124m CW dive is a much greater athletic achievement than his 214m NL dive. It's easy to understand why divers like Dave Mullins, Martin Stepanek and Will Trubridge wants to change this. And so do I."
=> good for you but NO !
And that's the essential part of my post. You don't represent the majority of AIDA's freedivers.
=> AIDA could bring a major contribution to safety and education in NLT and VWT
=> if AIDA want's to stop recognizing WR/NR that shouldn't be of any harm but stopping education especially is a pity
4) "Well, deepRelax, I don't think you will get anywhere in any major sport without tuning both body and mind."
=> Read the post with more care before writing nonsense.

 

[pehtran]

I think the essence of freediving is to go deep. It is just this. It is from this single point that all other disciplines evolved. It is why we freedive! To go deep: be it with fins, with monofin, with bifins, with a stone, with a sled.... but always to go deep. Sure all other disciplines may be more demanding but only NL can grasp the meaning of freediving in its basics sense. It is by far the deepest and that is why we love it. Danger factor should be addressed in another way - removal of sleddiving will not solve anything. My opinion.

 

[Aber]

DeepRelax wrote: "Freediving is more than an athletic discipline, there's a huge psychological part to it.
The athletic part of freediving is not essential.
Freediving is at its essence about harmony between your body and mind, i.e. understanding, control, acceptance, ...
You don't need to do anything to enjoy the essence of freediving, static breath-hold in a pool is enough".(end of quote)

I might have misunderstood you, but what you write is a bit confusing. What do you mean when you write "The athletic part of freediving is not essential"?

I don't agree that you can "enjoy the essence of freediving" in a static performance. I think you have to go to the depth disciplines to do that. And among depth disciplines, CW is a much more demanding discipline, both mentally and physically than NL. Or, don't you think so, deepRelax?

 

[deepRelax]

DeepRelax wrote: "Freediving is more than an athletic discipline, there's a huge psychological part to it.
The athletic part of freediving is not essential.
Freediving is at its essence about harmony between your body and mind, i.e. understanding, control, acceptance, ...
You don't need to do anything to enjoy the essence of freediving, static breath-hold in a pool is enough".(end of quote)

I might have misunderstood you, but what you write is a bit confusing. What do you mean when you write "The athletic part of freediving is not essential"?

I don't agree that you can "enjoy the essence of freediving" in a static performance. I think you have to go to the depth disciplines to do that. And among depth disciplines, CW is a much more demanding discipline, both mentally and physically than NL. Or, don't you think so, deepRelax?

My post is maybe confusing. I wanted to state in my previous post that you don't have to MOVE to enjoy a dive (ex: STA and NLT).
Freediving is not only effort on breath-hold.
The effort of swimming up and down makes the relaxing trip of "pure breath-hold+depth" a bit less enjoyable, by blood acidosis or heart rate increase for example.
Don't get me wrong, I love CW and NLT represents maybe 5% of my dives.
Obviously, performances are much better if you're well trained.

About the topic "sled diving within AIDA": I think everyone should be free to choose for him/her self of how they wanna go up/down, in the most safest possible way. AIDA, by its international scale, could help freedivers to make NLT and VWT safer.
Banning NLT and VWT performances as proposed by Trubridge et al could lead to a general banning of recreational NLT and VWT, which leave AIDA freedivers on there own for such dives and creates a gap between AIDA and other federations.
AIDA could contribute to general guidelines and standards which optimize security, on for example mechanical/technical aspects of the sleds, enhanced safety protocols and education on deep dives.
Maybe NLT is ridiculously easy for the current WR holders in CW, and "Herbert Nitsch's 124m CW dive is a much greater athletic achievement than his 214m NL dive" for sure.
But, from my point of view, freediving is more then CW/FIM performances and I definitely like to see deep performance without any external apparatus, coke bottles or whatever ...

 

[cebaztian]

Good discussion

I have done 101 NLT. It was one of the greatest freediving "kicks" of my life. But I dont see it even being close to (in a sportive sense) to my performances in CNF and FIM and CWTbifins.

I have been the project leader of one 100 meter NLT record and one 126 meter VWT record.

I say this: VWT/NLT is a stunt. In its essence something else than the six competitive categories

The people that performs in the six competitive disciplines (soon some 25.000 dives been made) have lots to gain if their governing body cut lose from the stunt disciplines.

2000 divers or more have done the competitive disciplines. Only a handful go for sledrecords. The sled is a burden for AIDA´s main activity.

Leaving the NLT/VWT arena will help AIDA portraying freediving as an athletic sport.

Having said this, I love the sled. I do it on a weekly basis myself.

Lets start talking about a separate governing body that deals with NLT/VWT.
Imagine how this small sharp organization could "sell" the activity as truly the most dangerous "sport" in the world.

Sebastian
VWT 44.8 today

 

[deepRelax]

Good point but isn't the creation of a "separate governing body that deals with NLT/VWT" completely unrealistic ?
Who would govern such an organization ? Why would they do it ? Why would they do a better job than AIDA ?

 

[trux]

As I wrote earlier in this thread, in December 2010 CMAS introduced a dozen of new disciplines, including Variable Weight with Fins, Variable Weight without Fins, and Skandalopetra (which is a kind of a rudimentary No-Limits dive), so if AIDA decides abandoning these disciplines, CMAS can do the job (as it did already in the past).

 

[pehtran]

Realy don't see a point why create a separate organization for NL when we have AIDA. As mentioned before by someone - practicaly no one of the general public has ever even heard of AIDA so nobody associate it with freediving anyway.

 

[Chrillepille]

Trux: Yes it is true that CMAS have in theory accepted competitions in deep diving. However, after a quick look at their rules, it is quite clear that they will never be practiced. That is how I read the CMAS-rules, at least.

I firmly agree with the proposal of AIDA NZ. And I can only concur with Sebastian - NLT and VWT from a record point of view is a stunt, a circus act. Something very impressive, but something I would choose to separate from AIDA.

 

[trux]

Trux: Yes it is true that CMAS have in theory accepted competitions in deep diving. However, after a quick look at their rules, it is quite clear that they will never be practiced. That is how I read the CMAS-rules, at least.

Could you elaborate? Frankly told, I doubt too that someone will organize competitions in VWT, but I do not see anything in the CMAS rules preventing them. In contrary in all the documents, even in the VWT document, they explicitly speak about competitions.

But even if CMAS does no VWT competitions, finally AIDA also does not organize any. In any case, CMAS can ratify VWT records just as AIDA does. And Skandalopetra competitions already do exist - I am not sure yet whether the next one will have the CMAS seal, but I would not exclude it. And as for competitions in other depth disciplines, those are in fact already reality since several years at several CMAS national branches (i.e. at the Spanish FEDAS, at some South American CMAS federations, and at others), so with the green light from the international headquarters now, I would definitely not bet against international depth CMAS competitions.

 

[chrismar]

I would definitely not bet against international depth CMAS competitions.

I would.

Last two world games cancelled. This year's CMAS freediving champs only in dynamic and jump blue. CMAS still massively in debt and run by cronies.

Care to put money on it?





Back on topic. The recurring theme of "I like sled diving. It makes me feel zen" keeps popping up. Sorry, but this is irrelevant to the discussion on whether AIDA should ratify records in the sled diving discipline. We are not suggesting that AIDA should stop putting out sled diving guidelines, nor will we be flying around the world confiscating your sleds. You can still do all the zen no limits you like. We propose only that AIDA not recognise record attempts - where people are by the very nature, doing something they couldn't do without a sled. That means the comments about limiting sled diving to their max CWT depth are irrelevant too.

Forget anything about how fun no limits is or how people will still sled dive. Lets focus on the actual question: Should AIDA continue to ratify no limits and variable weight records, given the safety record, limited number of athletes, financial burden and public relations difficulties?

 

[trux]

Last two world games cancelled. This year's CMAS freediving champs only in dynamic and jump blue. CMAS still massively in debt and run by cronies.

World Games cancelled but Apnea WC organized anyway (both times). This year's WC is in Dynamic, Jump Blue, and one of the NEW disciplines: Static Apnea! No other disciplines for apparent reason - they were approved only in December, and rules created during the following months, hence they were not available during the event planning - neither to the organizers, nor for the nations. Despite it, STA was operatively added, which shows that CMAS is serious about expanding the competitions.

CMAS is indeed massively in debt, but that's exactly the reason why it needs nations to issue more international licences that (unlike national licences) are their source of funds. And since the international licences are needed only for international competitions, organzing more of them is one of the ways out of the debts.

As for the cronies - they are everywhere, and as such they may not be necessarily a problem. The problem is rather that at CMAS those who manage the organization and national branches, are scuba divers, not freedivers. In contrary, the new managment of the CMAS Apnea Commission is young, active, effective, and I am relatively confident that they will do the maximum possible for the development of the sport.

Back on topic. The recurring theme of "I like sled diving. It makes me feel zen" keeps popping up. Sorry, but this is irrelevant to the discussion on whether AIDA should ratify records in the sled diving discipline. We are not suggesting that AIDA should stop putting out sled diving guidelines, nor will we be flying around the world confiscating your sleds. You can still do all the zen no limits you like.

I still do not get how it will help AIDA to improve its image when it does not ban the use of the sled completely. If it does not ban sleds, it is likely more accidents will happen anyway. And since the accidents will no more happen during a training for VWT/NLT record, but in regular preparation for depth, on my mind, it will shed even worse light on AIDA than now. So either we ban sleds entirely, or keep it as it is (and work on the safety), but it makes no sence to do it only half way.