• Welcome to the DeeperBlue.com Forums, the largest online community dedicated to Freediving, Scuba Diving and Spearfishing. To gain full access to the DeeperBlue.com Forums you must register for a free account. As a registered member you will be able to:

    • Join over 47,943+ fellow diving enthusiasts from around the world on this forum
    • Participate in and browse from over 531,990+ posts.
    • Communicate privately with other divers from around the world.
    • Post your own photos or view from 7,455+ user submitted images.
    • All this and much more...

    You can gain access to all this absolutely free when you register for an account, so sign up today!

sled diving within AIDA

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 90 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.

Should AIDA hold a Special Assembly/Referendum on sled freediving?

  • Yes

    Votes: 66 55.0%
  • No

    Votes: 46 38.3%
  • Don't Mind

    Votes: 8 6.7%

  • Total voters
    120
  • Poll closed .
sorry christmar but every ones input and feelings are rellevant, you will get this response from an open forum.
im sure the call for special assembly to consider sled diving by AIDA NZ to all AIDA nationals has been agreed and after findings are reported back from santorrini and findings from other incidents and near misses have been gathered it will be discussed by people best placed to do so.
 
AIDA has no power to ban sleds. The only power it has is to choose what gets recognised in competitions and record attempts that are held under the AIDA banner.
 
Yes, but as I told it will not help to clear its name at all, if sled accidents continue to happen. The public knows nothing about freediving, and does not care whether the accident happened during a VWT/NLT record attempt training, or during a regular training. Much better than removing the disciplines would be making it safer.
 
Trux, what I mean is that they have rules that will make a competition very hard and very expensive to organize and I doubt we will see any competitions under the current rules:


2.1.5.6
Another line must be installed near the main line, where a robot or an array of cameras fixed so as to cover the entire path of the athletes.

.
2.1.14.2.1


Up to 35 meters; one judge at 15 (fifteen) meters, one at 25 (twenty five)

one at 35 (thirty five) meters.
2.1.14.2.2


After 35 meters; one judge at every 15 (fifteen) to 20 (twenty) meters is to

be positioned. In case of low visibility that distance can be less.
2.1.14.2.3


If the organization offers a system for the safety of the athletes without the

depth judges after 35 (thirty five) meters and if that is approved by the main judge then

there might be no need for those judges.




One doctor who is a specialist in reanimation, who is responsible for the

manifestation, and who is always in the competition area,


An ambulance reserved for the competition area, with a doctor on board, which must

be located on land, close to the Health Centre,


An official hospital facility which must be easily accessible for the ambulance,



A decompression chamber which is already alerted of the competition and has given
its availability for emergency actions,



2.1.7.1


A pontoon or a boat of adequate dimensions should be located close to the

start island to take the athletes participating in the competition.
2.1.7.2


A second pontoon or boat of adequate dimensions must be located in the

vicinity of the competition area for the activity of the judges and for the support of the
services of assistance and first aid.
2.1.7.3


It is indispensable that the pontoons and/or boats have anchoring independent

from that of the competition areas.
2.1.7.4


Apart from the boats at the disposal of the Main Judge and of the Doctor, it is

necessary that there should be:
2.1.7.4.1


One first aid boat with oars can be located in the competition area (this may

be the same as the boat).

2.1.7.4.2 Two boats for transport or rapid evacuation. At least one of these boats must


at all times be in the area.
2.1.7.4.3


One boat for the competitors who are waiting to take part.

2.1.7.4.4


One support boat, for the assistants and equipment (this may be the same
as the boat mentioned in).




All is taken from this document: http://cmas.org/document.php?fileId=1433&language=1


Back on topic:
One (in my opinion) elegant way of solving the question about AIDA and sled diving is just to stop allowing record attempts.​

Cheers!​
 
Last edited:
surely if AIDA does not ratify the sled disciplines any longer, another agency will then do it creating competition for 2 agencies who can't put their heads together on regulation of the sports disciplines as it is . I don't see a problem with AIDA no longer ratifying the records personally as a national record and a world record will still be what they are. AIDA nationals are calling for the cessation of all official diving until reports are given I think this is a statement of intent , interesting ..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Yes, the loose safety and the insufficient evidence at the competitions and record attempts of AIDA were always in the center of criticism of others. The CMAS rules are very close to the ones of F.R.E.E., which, although quite strict, did not prevent the record attempts. On the other hand it is sure that it will limit the possibility to organize local competitions on a shoe string budget. In the same time the CMAS has a huge infrastructure and has a better chance than AIDA to create an ambulant competition equipment or a team that could then assist to events worldwide. Also the CMAS national federations, unlike at AIDA, have often very expensive tech scuba equipment in their property, and employ teams of scuba divers and maintenance personnel, hence do not necessarily need to make any big investment.

So yes, one possibility is to ban disciplines that become too dangerous like suggested here (today VWT/NLT, tomorrow CWT/FIM, next CNF), the other possibility is making them safer, although perhaps more difficult to organize.
 
Last edited:
dynamic under ice is not banned by AIDA, but since AIDA doesn't ratify the discipline a death won't impact it and require the AIDA president and entire board to be involved answering journalists' questions etc, as was the case for this recent tragedy.
 
One doctor who is a specialist in reanimation

Zombie freediving!

Oh, and what Will said. Despite public perception of freediving being fairly undifferentiated, there is still room for distinctions to be made, i.e. AIDA sanctioned vs unsanctioned. Plus the public, at least over here, seem to be getting gradually more clued up. Gotta anticipate a bit more awareness on their side in future, since that is what we're working on. I do have people who barely know me say: "you don't do that sled stuff, eh?" The reporters certainly know the difference.
 
Last edited:
another thought I keep having is , If AIDA or CMAS don't have VW or NLT in comps then why have they ever ratified records . cost implications must be immense for a start , obviously met by the person attempting record I presume? it's not a ban it's washing it's hands of the mess it has caused which is fair comment .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I do have people who barely know me say: "you don't do that sled stuff, eh?" The reporters certainly know the difference.
But you do, don't you? Or did you already scrap the sled you were describing in the thread http://forums.deeperblue.com/variable-no-limits/89729-variable-weight-dives-hydro-drag.html ? I see no difference in terms of risk in comparison to sancioned record attempts. Actually I do - I consider training dives much more risky that the record attempts.
 
Yep - but I don't plan to go deeper than my CWT pb and, perhaps more importantly, I don't claim it as any kind of achievement.

Remember, this is about official recognition and promotion of the discipline rather than the general use of sleds. NZ freediving has taken a stance that we think has benefited the sport locally. It would be easy for me, or Will, or Guy, or Chris or probably the old bloke down the road with a dicky heart and a taste for good single malt, to set the national NLT or VWT records. But nobody wants to go there (Kerian did a 75m VWT for sh*ts and giggles) because few of the kiwi freedivers respect it and most would consider it bad for the sport to move away from the (relatively) athletic image we have so far fostered.

I even have doubts about the effect of static on people's perception of the sport, but that's mainly because I'm bitter and twisted about the fact that I suck at it.
 
Last edited:
Trux, I will back Mullins up on this one by confirming that we deliberately cut the (very expensive) descent line for 'our' sled at a sensible (for Mullins) CWT depth.

In truth the sled has never gone past -40m or so, but that limit is mainly because the logistics of a sled dive off a small boat are difficult.
 
Yep - but I don't plan to go deeper than my CWT pb and, perhaps more importantly, I don't claim it as any kind of achievement.

Remember, this is about official recognition and promotion of the discipline rather than the general use of sleds. NZ freediving has taken a stance that we think has benefited the sport locally. It would be easy for me, or Will, or Guy, or Chris or probably the old bloke down the road with a dicky heart and a taste for good single malt, to set the national NLT or VWT records. But nobody wants to go there (Kerian did a 75m VWT for sh*ts and giggles) because few of the kiwi freedivers respect it and most would consider it bad for the sport to move away from the (relatively) athletic image we have so far fostered.

I even have doubts about the effect of static on people's perception of the sport, but that's mainly because I'm bitter and twisted about the fact that I suck at it.

I gave you a "Like" for this post, but it added a bloody heart icon so I "Unliked" it.

Papa Smurf, are you running a dating site here?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Stephan Whelan
AIDA should either work seriously to make it 100% safe, or have it removed. I DO NOT wish to lose another good friend in Greece due to AIDA's obliviousness as to the true meaning of safety measures.

Ashraf
 
On timing the proposal.

If it really didn’t made any difference for the proposed paper to be published before or after, why not publish it after the accident report when everyone has been able to cope with the accident? To me, it seems that the proposal committee wanted to ride on the emotionally driven anti-sled wave that always seems to pop up after an accident. This doesn’t feel right, nor sympathetic for its cause.

On the social effects on AIDA.

I don’t know how the press works in New Zealand. But I do know that with the recent accident in Nemo, even the press commented that the diver didn’t follow safety standards. No-one was blaming the sport of freediving of even mentioned AIDA. If a sled diver would fail safety procedures in an attempt or training, it might have an much lower impact than the proponents of the removal of the disciplines seems to think. Sled diving might become more expensive, but that is the problem of those who wants to do it, not of the organization body that put forth the safety rules.

Safety rules might be followed if it is still an practiced discipline. There is no use for safety rules if you are not expected to do the disciplines attached to it. If AIDA wouldn’t have detailed safety rules with an practice like no limits or variable weight, AIDA would not taking responsibility of the deaths caused by sled diving. And the lack of proper safety rules could be something which AIDA could be held responsible for as “World Freediving Organisation”. This won’t change if the discipline wouldn’t be recognized, unless AIDA would actively ban any sled diving and would persecute divers and instructors involved with it. The latter could push more people to the organization that does take its responsibility: CMAS. Please read Trux posting about how CMAS seems to overtake AIDA in its goals.

What are sportive disciplines?

That a discipline isn’t “sportive” doesn’t sound like a strong argument to me. Why not just ban all depth disciplines, and do constant weight without fins, without a suit, fluid goggles or dive line? Isn’t that how mother nature would want it? I can see why people would consider sled diving less sportive, but isn’t that just an opinion? And as mentioned earlier, an world organization should respect all opinions. And yes, I might even consider to become an proponent to recognize diving under ice :).

Did AIDA made sled diving safer?

Over the last 16 years, No limits resulted in 4 deaths, each accident with almost 4 to 5 years in between. At the same time, the use of variable weight and no limits seems to increase. Nowadays, even in the Netherlands, some divers have made their own rigs and are diving with it. And somehow, the death rate stays the same over all those years. Sounds like an achievement to me.

Relative risk

Relative risk is an nice example how statistics can be used to proof something without having clear proof. Some years ago, reports emerged that Nitrox was 100% safer to dive with compared with compressed air. Compressed air however, is safe. So this “100%” safer doesn’t mean anything because the absolute risk wasn’t large to start with.

You need absolute risk to be able to tell how risky an procedure is. For sled diving, you would need an total amounts of dives and the amounts of dives that would turn out into an accident. Sadly we don’t have those numbers, so we can’t say anything substantial how unsafe no limits and variable weight diving really is. Any statement regarding to its relative safety is a guess, not a fact.

The second problem with the used statistics is the effects of low numbers. We have only four cases with each distinct causes of death. The cases are not comparable, and therefore are not eligible to be clustered. It would be different if you would have fifty ascent black-outs in spearfishers or twenty samba’s in dynamic apnea. That is something to do statistics on. But four black-out deaths on different circumstances with different causes cannot be used to make statements about the disciplines safety as described in absolute or relative risk.

Even if you have gathered objective numbers, you still can use it for bad science. Often, this isn’t done by purpose. People want to make a point, and work with the limited information they have. However, it is dangerous make all kinds of statements and “facts” about such few numbers.

The paper of the proposal committee doesn’t held anything substantial against sled diving with the exception of the opinion about the disciplines of no limits or variable weight. Nevertheless, I am willingly to assist the proposal committee to help to gather significant evidence, if they would want that kind of assistance.
 
That's nice for you folk over in NZ, people here generally don't know the difference between No Limits and No Fins.
Mystiach: Personally, I think the vast majority of New Zealanders are exactly the same. They haven't heard of AIDA either.


Rik: Your post is excellent and very easy to read.


Folks wanting more NLTs controls: Expect a significant increase in your AIDA fees to fund the professional guideline preparation and policing of this minority activity.



I must admit two things: 1) I am not an AIDA member so my opinion is worthless in this matter, but I give it as a supporter of Freediving, 2) I would love to have a ride on a NLT sled, but only to a depth I could swim back from if the lift failed.
 
Last edited:
DeeperBlue.com - The Worlds Largest Community Dedicated To Freediving, Scuba Diving and Spearfishing

ABOUT US

ISSN 1469-865X | Copyright © 1996 - 2026 DeeperBlue Global Media Limited.

DeeperBlue.com is an independent digital media platform dedicated to Scuba Diving, Freediving, Ocean Advocacy, and Dive Travel.

Since 1996, we’ve been informing, educating, and inspiring the global diving community through trusted news, features, and shared community experience.

ADVERT