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Spearfishing World Championship NOW!
- Thread starterspaghetti
- Start date
Thread Status: Hello
, There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
Strangeglove
No, the South African, JACO BLIGNAUT, would have been placed in SECOND place overall, and JOSEBA KERETEJA still first (Gold medal!) - a worthy world champ!!
The first ten divers are all world class and quite a few of the others as well. It was a difficult competition as I understand there was not many fish. It also can be seen in the number of weighers.
Spearfishing is an extreme sport and highly addictive. All spearos are to my mind craaaaazy!
No, the South African, JACO BLIGNAUT, would have been placed in SECOND place overall, and JOSEBA KERETEJA still first (Gold medal!) - a worthy world champ!!
The first ten divers are all world class and quite a few of the others as well. It was a difficult competition as I understand there was not many fish. It also can be seen in the number of weighers.
Spearfishing is an extreme sport and highly addictive. All spearos are to my mind craaaaazy!
IMO and a few others I have spoken too he is second in the World, he knows it and many others do too...I agree not giving him the opportunity to defend himself was down right wrong, as well as the other problems encountered in the show, but its all part of the game. I think at the end its best to enter a train of thought were you are competing against yourself, this will both allow you to focus, and accept your true position.
I dont want to spoil your debate by deviating from the subject but i cant help being amazed with the determination of someone who dives into a cave & breathes in air from a pocket, reloads his gun numerable times & shoots more fish!!
QUOTE]
No kidding!
CMAS Competition Rules 7.3.3
b) The fish holder will have to be fixed to the buoy or the official fishing board. They will be provided by the competitors. It is strictly forbidden to have a fish holder fixed to the belt, not even the point to kill or to thread a fish to the holder.[
This Rule has been around since the year dot to stop competitors leaving fish in the area before a comp.
It is imperative that the captain reads the rules from cover to cover and passes it on to his team.
A paragraph from my book No Sharks Today
Majorca World Championships 1984
The next cleft in the cliff face was four foot wide and posed a bit more of a problem. It went back a long way, all underwater with a large boulder stuck in the middle going down to forty foot. A lot of nerve was needed to go in under the rock, and up the other side to find out if it was possible to surface into air, knowing that if there was not I would have to get all the way back out on the same lung full of air. After taking three really deep breaths I swam in arriving on the surface at the far side of the boulder in the inky blackness of the interior and looked round with my torch for the big bass I had seen during scouting. Suddenly a voice with a broad American accent said, “It’s a bit crowded in here buddy”. Without realizing it I had come up right next to John Ernst, one of the Yanks, he had been in the cave for quite a while and had seven fish on the illegal belt stringer round his waist. No complaint was made in this case but John did come 12th to my 14th so it could have made a difference.
b) The fish holder will have to be fixed to the buoy or the official fishing board. They will be provided by the competitors. It is strictly forbidden to have a fish holder fixed to the belt, not even the point to kill or to thread a fish to the holder.[
This Rule has been around since the year dot to stop competitors leaving fish in the area before a comp.
It is imperative that the captain reads the rules from cover to cover and passes it on to his team.
A paragraph from my book No Sharks Today
Majorca World Championships 1984
The next cleft in the cliff face was four foot wide and posed a bit more of a problem. It went back a long way, all underwater with a large boulder stuck in the middle going down to forty foot. A lot of nerve was needed to go in under the rock, and up the other side to find out if it was possible to surface into air, knowing that if there was not I would have to get all the way back out on the same lung full of air. After taking three really deep breaths I swam in arriving on the surface at the far side of the boulder in the inky blackness of the interior and looked round with my torch for the big bass I had seen during scouting. Suddenly a voice with a broad American accent said, “It’s a bit crowded in here buddy”. Without realizing it I had come up right next to John Ernst, one of the Yanks, he had been in the cave for quite a while and had seven fish on the illegal belt stringer round his waist. No complaint was made in this case but John did come 12th to my 14th so it could have made a difference.
As part Chilean (full disclosure here) I am upset about the claim but feel it was just. There are so many variables in a comp. Budgets, effort, equipment, preparation etc that the playing field is never level. It is hard to see that Jaco did not have an advantage using his system, but again terrible that he could not contest the allegation. I know the Chilean team members and they are all completely sound guys that would save your life, or help you change a flat tire in a second. I'm sure they felt that they were doing t he right thing informing the judges, even though it may not seem very sporting (I agree there).
As to breathing from an air pocket, the guy was risking his life. Not a good idea.
OH YES. and congrats to Spain, Italy and the other big winners this year, and thanks to spag for posting
As to breathing from an air pocket, the guy was risking his life. Not a good idea.
OH YES. and congrats to Spain, Italy and the other big winners this year, and thanks to spag for posting
Hi Eric Aq
.
"Majorca World Championships 1984.....and had seven fish on the illegal belt stringer round his waist. No complaint was made in this case but John did come 12th to my 14th so it could have made a difference." ....Bad, VERY bad!:naughty
.
...I am sure someone else, who has indeed read the CMAS rules, might answer on your quote from the rules! If there isn't anyone, I will definitely come back to it!
...At least I see that you have read the CMAS rules & have them at your disposal. It is much more, I am sure, than most captains do! I also agree that it is imperative that the captains (AND the competitors themselves) read the rules thoroughly!
...The reason you give regarding stringers (prevent spearos leaving fish in the area before the comp) definitely makes some sense. There will always be someone trying to beat honesty!
Cheers
.
"Majorca World Championships 1984.....and had seven fish on the illegal belt stringer round his waist. No complaint was made in this case but John did come 12th to my 14th so it could have made a difference." ....Bad, VERY bad!:naughty
.
...I am sure someone else, who has indeed read the CMAS rules, might answer on your quote from the rules! If there isn't anyone, I will definitely come back to it!
...At least I see that you have read the CMAS rules & have them at your disposal. It is much more, I am sure, than most captains do! I also agree that it is imperative that the captains (AND the competitors themselves) read the rules thoroughly!
...The reason you give regarding stringers (prevent spearos leaving fish in the area before the comp) definitely makes some sense. There will always be someone trying to beat honesty!
Cheers
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Azapa,
You are addressing more than one issue. I do NOT agree with you that it was unsporting of the Chileans to report an infringement as they saw it! I think they saw the South African diver (Jaco Blignaut) when he put the stringer of fish into his boat and probably ASSUMED that it was a waist stringer that he had been using. Foulplay is NOT allowed and I am sure that NO spearo will use a waiststringer, at least not openly in front of other competitors and his own boat commissioner! How stupid would it be? The Chileans were right to report the use of a waiststringer - if a waiststringer indeed had been used! This was not proven nor was the South African given a chance to explain. As I understand it, he never denied that some sort of stringer (dropstringer?) was used, but understandably heavily upset, vehemently denied using a waiststringer.
...The second - having an advantage? Doing and using what is not forbidden is legal? Is using scooters when scouting an advantage?
Have a nice day!
You are addressing more than one issue. I do NOT agree with you that it was unsporting of the Chileans to report an infringement as they saw it! I think they saw the South African diver (Jaco Blignaut) when he put the stringer of fish into his boat and probably ASSUMED that it was a waist stringer that he had been using. Foulplay is NOT allowed and I am sure that NO spearo will use a waiststringer, at least not openly in front of other competitors and his own boat commissioner! How stupid would it be? The Chileans were right to report the use of a waiststringer - if a waiststringer indeed had been used! This was not proven nor was the South African given a chance to explain. As I understand it, he never denied that some sort of stringer (dropstringer?) was used, but understandably heavily upset, vehemently denied using a waiststringer.
...The second - having an advantage? Doing and using what is not forbidden is legal? Is using scooters when scouting an advantage?
Have a nice day!
It was interesting watching this story unfold and hearing different perspectives. I've found my view changing as I read more.
For my 2 cents, I think the Chileans did the right thing, reporting what they thought to be an infringement. The rules are part of the sport/competition and why should they sacrifice their own positions for somebody they believe is clearly ignoring the rules?
Re. Jaco, he came up with a clever trick - too clever perhaps. However, there is nothing wrong with him gaining advantage from creative thinking and planning. Playing grey areas and even breaking the rules with a reasonable expectation of not getting caught (as in Eric's story) is no doubt part of the game for some top sports competitors BUT inevitably sometimes they will come a cropper. I think he should have been able to, briefly and promptly, make an appeal. However, from the information presented here, it sounds to me like Jaco did break the rule "CMAS Competition Rules 7.3.3 (b) The fish holder will have to be fixed to the buoy or the official fishing board." As that rules also covers the use of body stringers, it is not unreasonable that participants & official might use "body stringer" as a convenient way to refer to the entire rule.
So even without evidence of intended "foul play", it sounds to me like Jaco may have fallen foul of the rules.
Who knows what went on in the cave, or if the tricks mentioned in Eric's story might have inspired Jaco or the SA team before hand?
For my 2 cents, I think the Chileans did the right thing, reporting what they thought to be an infringement. The rules are part of the sport/competition and why should they sacrifice their own positions for somebody they believe is clearly ignoring the rules?
Re. Jaco, he came up with a clever trick - too clever perhaps. However, there is nothing wrong with him gaining advantage from creative thinking and planning. Playing grey areas and even breaking the rules with a reasonable expectation of not getting caught (as in Eric's story) is no doubt part of the game for some top sports competitors BUT inevitably sometimes they will come a cropper. I think he should have been able to, briefly and promptly, make an appeal. However, from the information presented here, it sounds to me like Jaco did break the rule "CMAS Competition Rules 7.3.3 (b) The fish holder will have to be fixed to the buoy or the official fishing board." As that rules also covers the use of body stringers, it is not unreasonable that participants & official might use "body stringer" as a convenient way to refer to the entire rule.
So even without evidence of intended "foul play", it sounds to me like Jaco may have fallen foul of the rules.
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Whatever we might think, rules is rules and Eric has pointed out the rules in question. Eric has represented/been around world and euro championships for a few years now, read his book! I will always take my hat off to those who push the limits but rules are there so what can you say?
in all fairness it sounds like the rule in question was indeed broken. however, what does upset the average spearo here is that Jaco wasnt given a fair hearing.
im sure that there is a certain burden of proof that the judges have to meet, otherwise everyone would be runing around claiming infractions of the rules from other teams.
im sure that there is a certain burden of proof that the judges have to meet, otherwise everyone would be runing around claiming infractions of the rules from other teams.
Mr X
Thanks for commenting on this very serious issue. I will try to answer (from MY point of view and as I see it) point by point.
1....You are mischievously speculating when you say "Who knows what went on in the cave, or if tricks mentioned in Eric's story might have inspired Jaco or the SA team before hand?"
You are clouding the real issue by this type of speculation. I can speculate on the motives of the Chileans, even ask the question if it was Pedro Carbonel instead of Jaco Blignaut, would the Chileans still have lodged a complaint? Pure speculation and not worthy to be pursued further.
2....For your 2 cents comment, I will add another 10 cent. Foul play should at no time be tollerated.
3....I rather not agree with your statement ".....and even breaking the rules without a reasonable expectation of not getting caught....is no doubt part of the game for some top sports competitors...". If it is indeed "part of the game" for some competitors as you say, I really am ashamed at the situation.
4....I do not know if and how the South African team appealed or how their objections were handled. From information I got they were not given a hearing! At no stage was Jaco Blignaut (the 'offending' competitor) given a chance of a fair and proper hearing (we in South Africa, although a third world country, subscribe to "due process of the law") in other words FAIRNESS!
5....The South African, Jaco Blignaut, was informed at the weigh in, that he had been disqualified because he USED A WAISTSTRINGER. This was reported worldwide in all the media. Now to go back and say "Yes, he might not have used a WAISSTRINGER, but the stringer he did use actually is also forbidden! (Making rules on the fly?) Hey guys, I once again ask you to point me to the rule or regulation that forbids a dropweight stringer or in fact any other stringer than a body or waiststringer????? (I have NOT come across it but it may exist somewhere, where I and others have not looked or have knowledge of). Again, good spearos seem not to make good lawyers?
6....Mr X, I see you quote the SAME CMAS rule as Erik did. In fact I think you just took it over from Erik's posting! If you had done the trouble to go and read the quoted rule, then you would have seen that it is CLEARLY NOT RELEVANT. The main heading of Par 7.3 is, and I quote "7.3 Competition without the use of the boats - with swimming fins". Read the previous rule - Rule 7.2!
7....Those guys that say "It has always been the rule.." or "...as I understand or remember the rule.." you must please refer me to the rule - where it has been officially noted!
8....This is a serious issue and must be clarified before the next Worlds - indeed any major tournament.
Serious but interesting indeed!
Thanks for commenting on this very serious issue. I will try to answer (from MY point of view and as I see it) point by point.
1....You are mischievously speculating when you say "Who knows what went on in the cave, or if tricks mentioned in Eric's story might have inspired Jaco or the SA team before hand?"
You are clouding the real issue by this type of speculation. I can speculate on the motives of the Chileans, even ask the question if it was Pedro Carbonel instead of Jaco Blignaut, would the Chileans still have lodged a complaint? Pure speculation and not worthy to be pursued further.
2....For your 2 cents comment, I will add another 10 cent. Foul play should at no time be tollerated.
3....I rather not agree with your statement ".....and even breaking the rules without a reasonable expectation of not getting caught....is no doubt part of the game for some top sports competitors...". If it is indeed "part of the game" for some competitors as you say, I really am ashamed at the situation.
4....I do not know if and how the South African team appealed or how their objections were handled. From information I got they were not given a hearing! At no stage was Jaco Blignaut (the 'offending' competitor) given a chance of a fair and proper hearing (we in South Africa, although a third world country, subscribe to "due process of the law") in other words FAIRNESS!
5....The South African, Jaco Blignaut, was informed at the weigh in, that he had been disqualified because he USED A WAISTSTRINGER. This was reported worldwide in all the media. Now to go back and say "Yes, he might not have used a WAISSTRINGER, but the stringer he did use actually is also forbidden! (Making rules on the fly?) Hey guys, I once again ask you to point me to the rule or regulation that forbids a dropweight stringer or in fact any other stringer than a body or waiststringer????? (I have NOT come across it but it may exist somewhere, where I and others have not looked or have knowledge of). Again, good spearos seem not to make good lawyers?
6....Mr X, I see you quote the SAME CMAS rule as Erik did. In fact I think you just took it over from Erik's posting! If you had done the trouble to go and read the quoted rule, then you would have seen that it is CLEARLY NOT RELEVANT. The main heading of Par 7.3 is, and I quote "7.3 Competition without the use of the boats - with swimming fins". Read the previous rule - Rule 7.2!
7....Those guys that say "It has always been the rule.." or "...as I understand or remember the rule.." you must please refer me to the rule - where it has been officially noted!
8....This is a serious issue and must be clarified before the next Worlds - indeed any major tournament.
Serious but interesting indeed!
I admire Jaco Blignault and I think he deserves to be world champion, but in my humble opinion "a stringer is a stringer is a stringer". How in the world would anyone be able to argue before a judge that any stringer was not actually used as a "waist" or "belt stringer". Stringers are not allowed, period. And by the way, another good and valid reason for banning stringers is to prevent competitors to pass some fish to other team member who could be in better position to win the championship. So the rules should be applied very strictly, and it is always suspicious when a competitor shows up at the boat with several fishes at once. I agree, however, that the judge in the boat should have comunicated this immediately to Jaco, and give him time to appeal, instead of waiting to shock him at the weigh in.
This is what I have gleaned from CMAS rules...
The fish holder will have to be fixed to the buoy or the official fishing board. They will be provided by the
competitors. It is strictly forbidden to have a fish holder fixed to the belt, not even the point to kill or to
thread a fish to the holder.
Where is the argument?
The fish holder will have to be fixed to the buoy or the official fishing board. They will be provided by the
competitors. It is strictly forbidden to have a fish holder fixed to the belt, not even the point to kill or to
thread a fish to the holder.
Where is the argument?
Surely each boat carries a designated official to curb exactly what has happened here ! Jaco took what was a grey area in the rules and used it to his advantage,he informed the official of his intentions and was given the go-ahead,if the official had told him immediately that it was against the rules,he would have used another method.This is not rocket science.
Spaniard
PLEASE READ rules 7.2 and 7.3 of the CMAS rules! (I really do not want to quote the whole and all CMAS rules here). Do not quote sub rules out of context! Also see my point 6 of my posting - posting #33.
This argument has come a long way and still NOBODY has pointed to the rule that forbids stringers except waist/body stringers? I deem it not to be even a grey area!
Yes, I can appreciate the rationale put forward for a rule not to use stringers, but then it will have to be thoroughly discussed worldwide by the spearo community and then incorporated as a written rule in the CMAS Spearfishing rules. As the rules are written at present, there is NO rule (that I am aware of) regulating the use of stringers except the forbiddance of waist stringers!
Happy spearing
PLEASE READ rules 7.2 and 7.3 of the CMAS rules! (I really do not want to quote the whole and all CMAS rules here). Do not quote sub rules out of context! Also see my point 6 of my posting - posting #33.
This argument has come a long way and still NOBODY has pointed to the rule that forbids stringers except waist/body stringers? I deem it not to be even a grey area!
Yes, I can appreciate the rationale put forward for a rule not to use stringers, but then it will have to be thoroughly discussed worldwide by the spearo community and then incorporated as a written rule in the CMAS Spearfishing rules. As the rules are written at present, there is NO rule (that I am aware of) regulating the use of stringers except the forbiddance of waist stringers!
Happy spearing
So you are basically saying that because it was a boat competition then the rule does not apply i.e. if it had said that stringers are OK in a boat competition then all clarified? I'm just playing Devils Advocate here - you are suggesting that the rule should be changed to clarify boat and non-boat competitions?
I do not suggest anything. Make up your own mind. You force me to quote the relevant regulations of CMAS:
"7 COMPETITION
7.1 General Information
7.1.1 Once the Competition starts, the replacement of the athletes is forbidden.
7.1.2 If an athlete withdraws himself, before the end of the competition the boat commissary will have to inform, as
soon as possible, the Head of the Judges.
7.1.3 If an athlete cannot participate in the competition for the second day, the captain will have to inform, in writing and under his signature, the International Judge, at the latest one hour before the start of the second day competition.
7.1.4 The athletes cannot move away more than 25 meters from their official buoy.
7.1.5 In the event of a swell and if the athlete goes into the surf, it will be allowed that he can leave his buoy anchored behind the line of the braking waves.
7.1.6 After the signal for the end of the competition, the competitors will be allowed to recover the material which would have possibly remained on the Seabed
7.1.7 Fish brought to the surface after the end of the competition will not be considered valid for the weighing.
7.1.1 Once the Competition starts, the replacement of the athletes is forbidden.
7.1.2 If an athlete withdraws himself, before the end of the competition the boat commissary will have to inform, as
soon as possible, the Head of the Judges.
7.1.3 If an athlete cannot participate in the competition for the second day, the captain will have to inform, in writing and under his signature, the International Judge, at the latest one hour before the start of the second day competition.
7.1.4 The athletes cannot move away more than 25 meters from their official buoy.
7.1.5 In the event of a swell and if the athlete goes into the surf, it will be allowed that he can leave his buoy anchored behind the line of the braking waves.
7.1.6 After the signal for the end of the competition, the competitors will be allowed to recover the material which would have possibly remained on the Seabed
7.1.7 Fish brought to the surface after the end of the competition will not be considered valid for the weighing.
7.2 Competition with the use of boats
7.2.1 A support boat will be given to each competitor and to each captain. Four (4) boats for Country will be attributed of preference, but if the organizer Country found difficulties in the attribution of this quantity of boats, it will be able to reduce to 3, eliminating the one attributed to the Captains, being them able to move itself, during the Competition, in the boat of any of its Athletes.
7.2.2 The boats will be as similar as possible in type and in motor power.
7.2.3 The boats will have to circulate at a low speed during the competitions and to approach the competitors with the engine idling, at a maximum range of thirty meters (except in the case of absolute necessity).
7.2.4 On each support boat, only the competitor the captain, the boat commissary, the pilot and if possible, a passenger having his national licence, will be allowed at the request of the competitor or the captain.
7.2.5 On the captain’s boat the team’s registered doctor will be allowed.
7.2.6 If a competitor calls for a boat, whatever it is, it will have to answer in priority with this call.
7.2.1 A support boat will be given to each competitor and to each captain. Four (4) boats for Country will be attributed of preference, but if the organizer Country found difficulties in the attribution of this quantity of boats, it will be able to reduce to 3, eliminating the one attributed to the Captains, being them able to move itself, during the Competition, in the boat of any of its Athletes.
7.2.2 The boats will be as similar as possible in type and in motor power.
7.2.3 The boats will have to circulate at a low speed during the competitions and to approach the competitors with the engine idling, at a maximum range of thirty meters (except in the case of absolute necessity).
7.2.4 On each support boat, only the competitor the captain, the boat commissary, the pilot and if possible, a passenger having his national licence, will be allowed at the request of the competitor or the captain.
7.2.5 On the captain’s boat the team’s registered doctor will be allowed.
7.2.6 If a competitor calls for a boat, whatever it is, it will have to answer in priority with this call.
7.3 Competition without the use of the boats - with swimming fins
7.3.1 Each competitor will have to be provided with a fishing board of distinctive colour (yellow, orange or red), provided by the organization.
7.3.2 The competitor can use his personal fishing board if it meets the official standards, described below.
Length: 70 to 120 cm overall
Width: 40 to 60 cm
Thickness: 7 to 30 cm
Propulsion: swimming fins only.
7.3.3 The fishing board must be provided with a suitable rope line for anchoring. One mast in front with 40 centimetres in height and 12 to 18 millimetres in diameter, being used to receive the flag provided by the organization.
a) The flag carrying the number of the competitor will have to be placed on the mast in order to be readable.
b) The fish holder will have to be fixed to the buoy or the official fishing board. They will be provided by the competitors. It is strictly forbidden to have a fish holder fixed to the belt, not even the point to kill or to thread a fish to the holder.
c) The official fishing board is used as support for the fish holder and the materials for replacement. No fish holder or material for replacement should be placed on board the support boat except for the masks, fins and snorkels.
d) All the spears fixed on the official fishing board will have to be provided with protections for the points.
e) The installation of a rope to the back of the official fishing board is authorized on the condition that it does not exceed twenty meters in length
....etc"
7.3.1 Each competitor will have to be provided with a fishing board of distinctive colour (yellow, orange or red), provided by the organization.
7.3.2 The competitor can use his personal fishing board if it meets the official standards, described below.
Length: 70 to 120 cm overall
Width: 40 to 60 cm
Thickness: 7 to 30 cm
Propulsion: swimming fins only.
7.3.3 The fishing board must be provided with a suitable rope line for anchoring. One mast in front with 40 centimetres in height and 12 to 18 millimetres in diameter, being used to receive the flag provided by the organization.
a) The flag carrying the number of the competitor will have to be placed on the mast in order to be readable.
b) The fish holder will have to be fixed to the buoy or the official fishing board. They will be provided by the competitors. It is strictly forbidden to have a fish holder fixed to the belt, not even the point to kill or to thread a fish to the holder.
c) The official fishing board is used as support for the fish holder and the materials for replacement. No fish holder or material for replacement should be placed on board the support boat except for the masks, fins and snorkels.
d) All the spears fixed on the official fishing board will have to be provided with protections for the points.
e) The installation of a rope to the back of the official fishing board is authorized on the condition that it does not exceed twenty meters in length
....etc"