Spearfishing World Championship NOW!

[spadefish]

To me its clear that people hide behind rule to justify incorrect decisions. The decision was incorrect PERIOD!

Since everyone refers to rules, they should be scrutiniesed and at an approved forum changed if needed. The rules need to be studied in their entirity and all the 'referees' in these competitions need to be TESTED on the rules to ensure they are competent. I feel that there were individuals who were to blame (I have personally discussed this with Jacu and Mark so have a fair idea as to what happened when the complaint was lodged and the arrogance of some individuals once they had been shown to be in the wrong!). How can a story change 3 times and still be held to be correct I ask? Surely once a version of the story has been disproved the integrity of the witness is compromised - they should not be allowed to change the story to suit the situation.

It is mentioned in an earlier post that a grey area was exploited. If rules are in place there is no grey area. When rules specify what cannot be done, then wahtever is NOT mentioned is allowed. This is the premise of every legal system world wide. Why now has it changed and 'new' regulations created to cover an officials incompetance?

Jacu deserved his second place and in my mind he WAS the runner up.:friday

 

[Mr. X]

Mr X
Thanks for commenting on this very serious issue. I will try to answer (from MY point of view and as I see it) point by point.
1....You are mischievously speculating when you say "Who knows what went on in the cave, or if tricks mentioned in Eric's story might have inspired Jaco or the SA team before hand?"
You are clouding the real issue by this type of speculation. I can speculate on the motives of the Chileans, even ask the question if it was Pedro Carbonel instead of Jaco Blignaut, would the Chileans still have lodged a complaint? Pure speculation and not worthy to be pursued further.

Yes, you're probably right but once you start getting into this sort of thing all sorts of things can come out. Polygraph? "Were you aware of Eric's story?" As to the Chileans lodging a complaint against others, my guess is that it would depend on what they had to gain or loose as a result, but some folks hold themselves to a higher standard, so maybe not.

2....For your 2 cents comment, I will add another 10 cent. Foul play should at no time be tollerated.
3....I rather not agree with your statement ".....and even breaking the rules without a reasonable expectation of not getting caught....is no doubt part of the game for some top sports competitors...". If it is indeed "part of the game" for some competitors as you say, I really am ashamed at the situation.

My comment wasn't aimed at spearing, it was an observation about competitive sports in general. I had a guy w/o a helmet drafting me in a triathlon once where helmets were mandatory and drafting was banned. In another race I saw a guy swim under the lane-marking line & swim straight to shore - eliminating 3/4 of the course! (It's possible he might have been struggling - I saw a guy almost drown once - but this one started running as soon as he reached shore!). There were cash prizes.

...
6....Mr X, I see you quote the SAME CMAS rule as Erik did. In fact I think you just took it over from Erik's posting! If you had done the trouble to go and read the quoted rule, then you would have seen that it is CLEARLY NOT RELEVANT. The main heading of Par 7.3 is, and I quote "7.3 Competition without the use of the boats - with swimming fins". Read the previous rule - Rule 7.2!
7....Those guys that say "It has always been the rule.." or "...as I understand or remember the rule.." you must please refer me to the rule - where it has been officially noted!
8....This is a serious issue and must be clarified before the next Worlds - indeed any major tournament.
Serious but interesting indeed!

Yes, I was just carrying on from Erik's post, just speculating. As I said, it is fascinating watching the details unfold. The section of the rules concerned does not seem to apply in the case described. So, it now sounds like an appeal is in order to me. Or do they have a clause that judges decision is final?

BTW The last part this rule unclear/grammatically incorrect/odd:
"It is strictly forbidden to have a fish holder fixed to the belt, not even the point to kill or to thread a fish to the holder."
I think it means that your can't have a belt stringer, not even if its sole purpose is to provide a spike to kill the fish. If so, it would be clearer it they just missed off the last two sections of the sentence & just said: "It is forbidden to have a fish holder fixed to the belt."

 

[Spaniard]

I am a mere simpleton when it comes to reading long lists of rules and regs but I can see that under boat comps with fins the stringer thing isn't mentioned as it is under non-boat competitions. Is the argument therefore that the rules need updating to clarify this? Please put me out of my misery before I become a lawyer!

 

[eric aqua]

Just to give you a different angle on this situation I have just completed the BSA magazine Crystal Clear and it is now available on lulu publishing, there is a link on the BSA website. In it is a full report from my British Team co-manager Alan Mills on the world championship, who sat on the CMAS committee that dealt with this complaint. As I said before, as a manager/captain you must listen at the captains meetings and keep your team informed on the rules that can be changed to suit conditions in the areas.

 

[Des B]

(Spearfishing World Championship 2008 - Venezuela - Jaco Blignaut incident)

Eric
NOW you've got me interested! In one of my first posts I mentioned that I would like to hear the judge's side of the incident. Surely the report is not secret. Can you provide a link to it?

 

[eric aqua]

This is the paragraph from our Venezuelan report in Crystal Clear written by our team manager who sat on the jury and I can assure you he is a stickler for getting things right.

Unluckiest athlete of the day was Jaco Blignault of South Africa. He was protested over the use of a fish stringer and was disqualified from Day 1 by the International Jury for gaining an unfair advantage. His first day catch would have put him in a medal position. The lesson to be learnt from this unfortunate episode is that all athletes need to have a thorough understanding of the CMAS rules and any clarification made at the Captains Meeting. It was made clear at this meeting that the fish had to either go straight into the boat or on a stringer attached to a athletes buoy.

 

[Des B]

Thanks Eric for the paragraph regarding the Jaco Blignaut (check the spelling) incident. Sorry, I am not familiar with the term "prosted" but I assume it means something like "accused"? I quote from your paragraph:
"....over the use of a fish stringer...." – note that they (judges?) do NOT SAY WAISTSTRINGER! Is this deliberate to get away from the true wording of the particular rule (the ONLY rule) that mentions the use of a stringer? BUT, the WORLD PRESS have reported that the South African was disqualified because he used a WAISTSTRINGER! If you do not believe me, Google "Jaco Blignaut" and you will find many magazines and other publications that have reported it like this!
I quote further:-
"...disqualified..... for gaining unfair advantage." Now I am not sure what the judges want to emphasise? The use of A stringer or the gaining of unfair advantage? Well, it would only have been unfair advantage if indeed a rule existed that banned ANY stringer! Jaco Blignaut did not use a waiststringer therefore the accusation against him is false and the judges, to my mind erred, when they found him "guilty of using a waiststringer". If they had all the facts at hand and had given the South African Team a proper and fair hearing, in fact if they had given them a hearing at all, the outcome would definitely have been different. BTW – by the way - CMAS rules do not require a fair hearing, nor the Particular Rules (Venezuela) for the competition.
Eric, the sneaking in, by means of "clarification", a new rule that is clearly contradictory, or at least different, from the existing written rules, is just not worthy of an occasion like the Worlds. The article further says: "It was made clear at this (captain's) meeting that the fish had to either go straight into the boat or on a stringer attached to a athletes buoy". If this is a "clarification" of the standing written rule regarding the use of waiststringers, then I am the next president of the USA!
I really am trying to argue the point from a legal perspective, but there is so much blurriness that I just can not put my hand to it!

 

[eric aqua]

My mistake the word was protested. You should download the whole report from the lulu publishing web page in PDF format, it is under Crystal Clear Autumn 2008 it makes interesting reading. Our lad was given a 1 hour penalty at the start of the second day for starting in the right place along with your captain. Best of luck with your mission we tried to contact CMAS over several months about a European spearfishing ban they never even acknowledged on letters.

 

[ALPacheco]

I am sure you don’t know, but the jury was composed by:

-I, António Luiz Pacheco (Portugal), designated the international jury of CMAS.
-The Competition Director (Venezuela) Alfonso Pochet
-The Captains of:
Great Britain
New Zealand
France
Tahiti
USA

Please note that for me, spear fishing competition is something more than to dive and spear fish! It is to know how to do it, to know and respect the sea, being able to go trough it! To know the behaviour of fish, and how to catch it. To know yourself and being able to do your best, surpassing natural limits, the discomfort, fatigue, cold, fear, and to be motivated to go on looking for your prey! And to know the antagonist, to be quicker, stronger and more motivated than they are. But, all of this must be done in the same conditions for all the competitors! That’s sport!
So, there are rules, in this case the CMAS rules, that every team must read and know very well, and when going to a CMAS competition they must understand they accepted!

As responsible for a team and federation, I also call your attention to another detail, very important, but mostly disregarded:
Team strategy and the tactics!
As you know, spear fishermen are individualists… I don’t dare to give you any lessons but, the major reason of triumph I assisted, that makes some teams to be stronger, is the strategy and the tactics they are able to improve, and not only the capacities of their spear fishermen or time they spend there! And, also to know and use the rules, so, not being penalised, as it was with SA team, and Jaco!
He proved he is able to win, absolutely! And I am sure he will be a serious candidate to be Euro-African Champion in 2009, but he needs more experience, and understanding that rules of CMAS competitions are not to be understood by each one as they wants, as not to be surrounded by stratagems, has he pretended – what I understand for his youth. There are ethics and respect for the rules, what young people must learn and understand they exists to keep things in a fair competition.

About the happening, with Jaco, I can easily prove the decision has been thought and analyzed, and take with justice. These are the facts:
1- In the technical meeting, with captains, it was quite clear and understood by everybody, in 3 languages – including English – that for no misunderstandings, the fish should be kept only in the buoy or in the boat! No other place would be allowed! Regulations are quite explicit, but this point is always clarified, again and again!
2 – Jaco, was fishing in a cave, keeping the buoy outside. His boat and commissioner didn’t saw him for a long time and did not know what was happening. They were concerned about, and told that to other boats and commissioners. What is not reasonable however is not a major penalty. But call the attempting to him.
3- Jaco spear fished in the cave, where he can breathe. Every fish he caught (as he told us) was putted into a small rope attached to a weight, of those we use in the belt, in the bottom. THIS IS NOT ALLOWDED! Is a unfair and not considered way of keeping in the same place, when in competition an by CMAS rules!
4- Meanwhile, the Chilean spear fisherman was in the same place, taking fish, but coming out the cave, to put it the buoy, AS THE REGULATIONS SAYS!

We only need to watch this detail:
- Jaco was doing in total disrespect for regulations.
- Franco Bosquez was close to him, but doing as the regulations say.
So they were not competing the same way, and Jaco had the advantage of their “cleverness”, that to me can be called “to cheat”! So Jaco was disqualified!
Can you try to understand and explain why only Jaco did this? Manny other spear fishermen in the same conditions and out of competition do like that! But not in a competition! I would say he did it, because he didn’t know the regulations and because he had no experience! What means I do believe Jaco is not dishonest, but I do believe he needs experience and understanding of a CMAS competition, as all of we do!
Rules exist to allow all people to compete in a fair way!

About the developing of the competition, I honestly must say I do agree with you!
But I think it was not the organization, but a local problem! I assisted all the process and I saw how difficult the people were to organize and to discipline.

About the depart of 2Th day:
1- The director of competition was trying to get boats, to replace those who broke just when they went out the harbour.
2- He told everybody to congregate and wait in a place, what was not done!
3- When finally he approached the local he said it will be the concentration area, the boat saw him and moved to that place. Some thought the competition has begun…
So:
-Why only some (12 boats in 63) did started?
-When does a World Championship just start like that, without the director giving any instructions and without a general start?
-Can those who started say who gave the order?
-Did those that started, knew what time the competition would finish?
-Did they know the time of competition?
-Where they instructed about the place to go at the end?
The answer is: No!
So what happened was a completely disrespect for the regulations, again… however understandable for the delay and stress. That’s why, I myself advised the director of competition not to disqualify those competitors, what he accepted, however decided to penalize them with less one hour.

Gyulia, was unhappy and I do regret what happened to him! He is a good and strong spear fisherman and did not deserve what happened to him!
The director decided to give his boat to a Croatian that had no boat, (at the time he had decided to disqualify him because being one that had started). Gyulia left his equipment in the boat, later on, after reconsidering not disqualifying him, it was hard to find the boat and his equipment… the area of competition was quite large!
There was misfortune, disorganization, but no maliciousness in the happening, I can assure you.

I wish that Jaco will be in next competitions, that proves he is a winner and got the spirit. He will become a champion, but he has to learn how to fall down and to get up! A man who always wins, is a winner, but is he a champion?
I hope he will be able to take it like a sportsman because he is a fine young spear fisherman, strong and intelligent with the nerve! I know and have seen others before, not able to go beyond insuccess or failure, and those who still are in competition… these are champions and real winners!

Please do not understand my words as an enemy! We spear fishermen, have enough of them to fight between us.

 

[Des B]

Dear Antonio

You mention "CMAS or CMAS RULES" about seven times in your posting, but it is VERY clear that you, and probably the whole of the jury, had not read the CMAS rules! Out of this whole discussion on this website/thread it has been PROVEN that CMAS does not have a rule/regulation prohibiting dropweights - or for that matter stringers when in competition with boats!!! I really do not want to spoonfeed you! Please read the whole discussion regarding the use of stringers & waiststringers. If CMAS does have a rule regarding the non-use of stringers, please quote or refer me to it!
I quote from your post: ".....to put it the buoy, AS THE REGULATION SAYS!" WHERE is that CMAS regulation or AM I BLIND??? I have the FULL CMAS regulations printed & NOWHERE is such a rule regarding stringers! Please do not suck things out of your thumb!
I am just a supporter of spearfishing, but I will fight for fairness in any game! What the judges have judged has been done, but I dare any one of the captains that insists that there exists a CMAS (or Particular Venezuelaun) written rule that prohibits stringers except waiststringers, to show or refer me to such written rule!
Fairy Fairness

 

[octopus]

Calm down mate. It is not good for health.

You are putting all your heart into defending a technicality.

Personally, I prefer common sense to formalities. This is why we have judges rather than robots.

 

[azapa]

the simple fact that a point is made in the captains meeting before the comp. is good enough to make it a defacto rule for the event.

"1- In the technical meeting, with captains, it was quite clear and understood by everybody, in 3 languages – including English – that for no misunderstandings, the fish should be kept only in the buoy or in the boat!"

Despite my tiny comp. experience, the captains meetings do raise issues that are outside (or not) the rule books that must be respected on the day of the event

 

[Des B]

Thanks Octopus, I will try. :t:t

But idiocy gets to me! What does your common sense tell you? Get hammered for a non-existing rule is OK?

All the guys that got penalised for starting early - where were the boat judges/"commissioners"? AND starting late both days of the comp? Me thinks people in charge not so bright!

Really trying!

 

[octopus]

What does your common sense tell you?

This is how I see it.

The rule has been introduced in order to prevent people breathing in caves (safety issues and unfair fishing conditions for all).
The rule is saying that you should keep your fish on buoy or in a boat.
End of story.

So, instead of using words like "idiocy" (it is not nice really...after all, all these people are your mates, you might go diving with them tomorrow...no need for that just because of difference of opinions), perhaps you can be more clear as what your point is.

Is it that section "7.2 Competition with the use of boats" is missing such rule?

 

[ALPacheco]

Dear Desby

"But idiocy gets to me! What does your common sense tell you? Get hammered for a non-existing rule is OK?"

So have nothing more to tell you... maybe "idiocy" is not only in the others ...please
consider the idea other people are rigth, and are not idiotics because they don'y yhink as you do...

Only: If you are able to understood why I talk so many times about CMAS Rules, because it was a CMAS championship, and all those teams went there they were
obliged to accept those rules...
And it is the Sperfisihing Comission job to make or to understand the rules, and what
we decided, is that fish only in the buoy or the boat, as decided in the captains
meeting, and told several teimes to everybody in 3 languages, I repeat.
Just because of this kind of cleverness: fish in a stribg in the bottom, under the jacket, etc. etc. etc. The spearfishermen are obliged to be near the buoy, and this
is also to keep them near it, and to avoid this kind of dangerous behaviour because
bobody knews where Jaco was, he did not tell the boat or the comissionar and if there were an accident how to find him?
Please d'ont talk abou common sense... just try to understand things and that there other people they lnow what they are doing. You are not obliged to agree or to go to CMAS competition, your choice, but you d'ont have the rigth to call me an idiotic or
a person without sense... maybe you had better to look at yourself!

End of conversation... if you understood what happen, very well! If you d'ont... very well also... it is your problem.

I will be pleased to discuss with everybody this or other matters, but not this way with insults or no education.

 

[azapa]

i am sure the rule was not invented to stop people from entering caves. it was invented, and is there, to stop people leaving a bunch of fish tethered to the bottom, hidden, before the comp...

also, secondarily, for the safety issues of having fish on the waist in sharkey waters,

thirdly, maybe, the cave issue

my two pesos

 

[Des B]

Thanks for your input Azapa

At least you do not keep on referring to "...the rules that say this and the rules that say that..." - and when asked where are the specific rules, it cannot be provided.

You imply that a NEW rule was created at the captain's meeting when the rules regarding stringers were mentioned/clarified. Well, as long as it is admitted that it is a totally NEW CAPTAINS MEETING RULE that was in force (as you said de facto) I will have to live with it. I was not at the meeting to judge when and how this NEW CAPTAIN"S MEETING RULE was decided upon and how it was announced? The South African was disqualified because of - using a "waiststringer" which is totally false! This NEW CAPTAINS MEETING RULE thing seems just to be too handy to get the judges off the hook? I think in English law (and other law) if you are found guilty of one offence & it is proven that that specific offence was not committed (the offence was not proven at all at a fair hearing) then......do I have to spell it out?

Antonio gave an answer to a posting from me to Octopus. If he feels guilty and gives a lot of irrelevant explanations insinuating that the rule is there because of possible cheating ("under coat") by spearos, non disclosure where you are, etc. etc I think he must rather explain the details of the incidents to the Spearfishing Authorities/Community of South Africa. The same goes for his NEW CAPTAINS MEETING RULE. If the rule was created at the meeting then it stands! As I have said in an earlier post - CMAS rules do not require a fair hearing.

 

[ALPacheco]

Azapa said:

"I am sure the rule was not invented to stop people from entering caves. it was invented, and is there, to stop people leaving a bunch of fish tethered to the bottom, hidden, before the comp...

also, secondarily, for the safety issues of having fish on the waist in sharkey waters,"

Dear Azapa
Yes, you do have a good vision of the problem... and we can find much more reasons why not to allow carrying fish in other places than buoy/put it in the boat!
And everybody knows that!
It was not an invented or a new rule to Venezuela or made in the captains meeting
... what is perfectly regular! The particular rules of the Championship, if are not against CMAS rules, can be aproved and used!
And all the captains must know it! Is not so difficult to understand... it has allways been like that!
Imagine in SA: the organization, du to safety reasons could oblige everibody to put immediatly at the boat, every fish caugth! It should be done! Of course!
In a competition the interest of safety and justice (equal modus operandi) are not
easy to attempt, but are the target of organizations. And we can find others, like you said, not leaving dead fish without weight in the bottom...

P.S. Note that 3 people had written that Jaco had fish attached to her body:
- The comissionar of Chile, the captain of Chile and Franco Bosquez who has been in the water and in the cave with Jaco. The Captain, went to talk with Jaco and looked him in the eyes and asked me to translate when he said Jaco that he saw him with fish in a string and weight belt, in the body, and told him he was sorry but expecting Jaco could learn the lesson.
How can the jury ignore this behaviour and the word of 3 men?
Can you answer that?
However I accepted Jako word that he had no fish in the belt, has he explained me
that was in the bottom... but as I told him: What is the difference?
In the bottom 2 meters from you or in yhe belt?
Or to swim out and put it in the buoy as regulated?
Well Franco Bosquez did it, because he is an experienced and well known competitor, with several CMAS championships, and he knew what he had to do!
The desqualifying has been right and fair... no matter what some people can think or say...
Thank you for your patient on reading me, even if you do not agree - but please let's talk like gentlemen.

 

[Des B]

ALPACHECO wrote:
"It was not an invented or a new rule to Venezuela or made in the captains meeting ... what is perfectly regular!" Now you are really confusing me. Well, the rule was NOT there before the captain's meeting? So it IS a NEW "Captains meeting Rule"!

"The particular rules of the Championship, if are not against CMAS rules, can be aproved and used!" I agree. The Particular Rules of the Championship had been approved and posted on the official website MONTHS before the competition and the ONLY rule regarding stringers was that no WAISTSTRINGER may be used! (Until the captains NEW rule!)

"Or to swim out and put it in the buoy as regulated?" - AGAIN, AGAIN, AGAIN, where is this regulation? (O, I forgot, it was created by the captain's meeting!)

"The desqualifying has been right and fair... no matter what some people can think or say..."
Thanks for your kind of justice! (3 witnesses against 0)

 

[ALPacheco]

My dear Des B:
You are not confused, you are trying to prove your point!
If you were ever in a CMAS Championship, you should know the rule is fish in the buoy or into the boat. Period! What is not new and was again and again told and
clarifyed in the captains meeting... d'ont try to confuse things.
Besides there is no need to explain you anything because you already knows everything! As I understand...
As I told you before I will no longer discuss this subject with you. I came here to tell people what happened... and to explain things, so people can make her own idea and decide about, what you take as a sign of weakness and a confession of not knowing what we were doing.
There is nothing more to tell you.
Best regards

António Luiz Pacheco