SWB: Reducing the Risk

[efattah]

Specific training is not always even possible. Imagine no-limits. Would anyone recommend a 200m dive every day? The diver would either die from DCS or suffer the long term chronic effects of nitrogen (bone necrosis, etc.)

My goal is to do 60m ENJOYABLE repeated FRC dives with deco hangs at 4m at the end of each dive. So what is the definition of specific training? If I can't even do one 60m dive with a thick wetsuit, then should I try to do one max? Or should I do repeats of the max depth I can do? If I want to do enjoyable dives, then specific training means I must do enjoyable dives, not stressful ones. Do you think I would improve by just doing enjoyable dives? Certainly doing enjoyable dives hasn't had much effect over the last few years.

Do 100m sprinters train by doing just one rep of 100m every day? I don't think their legs could ever get strong by doing that... since they are not doing specific training, one could argue that a sprinter doing specific training could run 9.20 seconds in 100m, which seems a bit unrealistic.

 

[fpernett]

This is a quite interesting thread.

I agree on specificity, but it can be a little bit different from doing the same thing all the time. I think we should teach our body to deal with hypoxemia, hypercapnia, hypothermia and hyperbarics in the right way. Well, the right way can be difficult to define...

In my case, for example, depth is impossible on a regular basis, so specificity can be, to find a way to train my body to depth in a shallow pool. If I want to train leg muscles to work with their own oxygen supply, then, stair climbing in exhale apnea can do the work. Of course I'm not training specific muscles but some of them.

When I started serious training I was aiming to be able to do recreational dives to 40 meters, but I turned to the "abyss" side and wanted to go deeper, after that I have found that doing 40 m recreational dives was near to achieve. So, I was not training for that but I reached that goal.
My point is that extreme freediving has a lot of different physiologic challenges (extreme hypoxia, oxidative damage, nitrogen supersaturation, cold stress, etc) so the best and safer way to approach it, is by developing gradual physiologic adaptation to that, and there are different paths to achieve this.
@Seb, How can you predict the final distance in dynamics by measuring the heart rate of the diver?

 

[GreekDiver]

You need water! You need the cooling effect of water, even better when it flows. (Hint: Statics with water flowing over the face)

Seb

I found a new breathhold training method!

Im going to hold onto a water ski rope as my friend tugs me underwater behind my boat Plenty of cool flowing water!

 

[trux]

Have a look at this clip - it may be the right solution:

​

 

[GreekDiver]

Have a look at this clip - it may be the right solution:

​

I do that to find new places to spearfish. Thats a good way of scouting.

 

[shoutatthesky]

Hey Seb,

Doesn't your story prove that cross training works? 7:04 after four days trying? Sounds like your non specific training worked exceptionally well.

Too old? rofl Give me a break! How old are you -30 something????

 

[GreekDiver]

someone buy him a walker!

 

[Bill]

"When I eventually figured it all out, just the other day (I think?),"

Great stuff Seb. Thanks. Please keep it up as much as possible. If you're feeling old, I'll ship you the walker that I used after the hip surgery last year. rofl
Since I only need a handfull of seconds more (static), I'll experiment with anything.
Aloha
Bill

 

[sebastien murat]

The fact that I started with long breath-holds and no specific training only demonstrates to me what might have been possible had I started when I was I toddler. You should remember I wasn no couch potato either. I could jump pretty high and sprint pretty fast too (10.3" for the 100m). Admittedly I could also run 5km in 18' flat too...don't know how, I just could). My restin HR was 35 bpm. Certainly, if I had someone of the caliber of cross-country skier with HR of say 27 bpm, he would have wipped me good. The point though, had such a person strated freediving and pushed as hard as they'd been pushed for skiing then that would be impressive I think.

I'm feeling old because of I've got two kids....I've just got to get organized and run it like boot camp I rekon.

I have to agree with Frank: you can just think of it in terms of an athletic event, you must also allow for the effects of water (temp & pressure), assuming we're talking deep diving. If you recall, I said specificity, technique aside. I also said bite-size. This means developing the correct movement amplitude, speed, load, duration, etc.

No limits is a composite of static, being able to tolerate serious loads and some hyperbaric gas-exposure (don't require much of that if you can drop real fast). It requires no specific muscle training since you're essentially aiming to minimize movement.... nothing specific here. If you want to increase your static then increase your lung capacity and increase your blood volume and RBC count, etc. To tolerate serious loads go and do empties.

For constant-ballast displines, provided you can equalize, have sound technique and tolerate the environment (cold and pressure) then the analogy is more or less a max dynamic on the 'head'. We already know that max dynamics, I would argue, offer the best training approach. If you can'd do the technical stuff, then your next best option is to invest more training in technique and balance that with max pool dynamics.

100m sprinters do starts, rep 30m, 60s, etc., i.e., bite-size! 100m is very technical at a high level. But as techniques becomes less important or you simply become more competent, going the distance and 100% intensity is also more important. I would argue that to run 10,000m well in the long-term, you should go out and 'try' to run 10,000m flat out and then recover for as long as it takes before going again. Since the aim is to set new highs, say world records, the best strategy would be too run at world record speed for as long as possible. Of course you wouldn't make 10,000 but eventually you might. The point train for where you want to be, not for where you are now. Like wise for the 100m. Now that's specific! Motivation would eventually become an issue, so some introspection is required to dig that little deeper once the novelty wears off. There has to be incentive.
Many would disfute such ideas of course.


Heart rate stuff: its not the aboslute HR but the trends (up or down) that tell me whether you have anything left over Frank.

Seb

 

[sebastien murat]

Greek Diver,

Make sure its at the right speed. Otherwise its not specific. Ha! ha!

Seb

 

[amihov]

Some people are just looking for a good excuse to claim that training in water doesn't work. Because they have no access to it or they have no time to go to the pool. If you want to be a good diver you have to dive as much as possible.
Every training will help you whit the diving but that is the most important. You have to be a fool to say that training in water doesn't work.

 

[perow1]

100m sprinters do starts, rep 30m, 60s, etc., i.e., bite-size! 100m is very technical at a high level. But as techniques becomes less important or you simply become more competent, going the distance and 100% intensity is also more important. I would argue that to run 10,000m well in the long-term, you should go out and 'try' to run 10,000m flat out and then recover for as long as it takes before going again. Since the aim is to set new highs, say world records, the best strategy would be too run at world record speed for as long as possible. Of course you wouldn't make 10,000 but eventually you might. The point train for where you want to be, not for where you are now. Like wise for the 100m. Now that's specific! Motivation would eventually become an issue, so some introspection is required to dig that little deeper once the novelty wears off. There has to be incentive.
Many would disfute such ideas of course.
Seb

To be able to handle the specific training, training sometimes is inevitable. In the case of the 10 000m runner, most runners, even the talented ones would just get injured by doing that. Isn´t this why the runners train A LOT to make their bodies fit to handle this sort of training? Sometimes "recover for as long as it takes before going again" is best done by slight training aswell.

Often training to be able to train is very beneficial. The specific training in small portions as you describe is crucial to anyone who wants to be good at a special event. But to be able to cope with the precious and important specific training more often and at a higher workload a gradual buildup of the body is needed. I think the question of cross training is not wheter it can replace specific training, it simply cannot, cross training should be done to get more out of the specific training and to complement it by getting you redy for it. Sometimes cross training can bedone to isolate one specific movement and be specific in its own way.

 

[sebastien murat]

I use to hear the word periodization all the time when I was in athletics, i.e., build a general fitness base which becomes more specific towards the competitive season. The volumes of work involved are large and intensity not so high. You can also get ill from such large volumes of work because you hardly have time to recover. This is the approach used in the West for decades. The Russians of the 80s and 90s on the other hand worked out that highly specific training at close to maximum intensity + active recovery is where its at.

When I refer to specific, specific depends on your goals. Here's two examples.

Joe sais his aim is to one day run the 400m in a hypothetical 40" flat. He can't do that now, but has the potential. His best now is 46" and he has a perfect technique under stress. I would say to him forget about running 400m for now, and forget about wasting those extra 6 seconds of endurance you think you need, it only interferes with your speed.

Joe then sais, let's forget abou the longer-term carer goals, I now want to win the champioinships this summer. I have to do a heat before the final, and on the same day. I would say to him: what's the minimumtime required to qualify? Go an do no more than that. What time in the day do you have to qualify and run the final? Go and run then just like in the event program but allow for the 1 second improvement, i.e., cut maybe 6-7m off the 400m ... that's specific.

Some of you will say, yes but if he has no build-up in general fitness he wont recover quickly enough to compete well again in the finals. I say, no point competing in the 400m if you can't run it fast, even if you have a good recovery rate (aerobic capacity). My view, the better investment is in developing your speed and speed endurance even if you lose a bit in time in the finals, because you surely wont get by, by being a work horse instead of a thoroughbred.

Truly, life isn't so complicated, there are no magical freediving programs involving weight, running, cycling, etc. You just need to go out and do the very thing you want to achieve (specificity), no more (plenty of rest) and no less (motivation and intensity).

Seb

 

[perow1]

Still, specificity can be cut down into very small pieces. Joe, already having a god given perfect technique under stress, finds that explovivness stops him on his path towards 40 flat. He isolates one movement and trains explosiveness in that movement in the gym, far from the track. Specificity?

If you want to increase your static then increase your lung capacity and increase your blood volume and RBC count, etc.

Increasing lung capacity by doing stretching on dry land miles away from a pool. Specificity?

I just don´t want do be fooled by the word specificity. It can simply mean. Do exact copies of what you try to do. Or it can mean; isolate your weakness and train that specific alongside with the complete thing.

Just like you I do not beleive in a magic bullet and specificity in its simplest form is no magic bullet either. At least I get that feeling intuitively. Still, it might take you very far and since it is such a simple recipie it might not be wise to replace it with some strange diet or prayers, but I sure beleive it can be improved.

 

[Fondueset]

This morning as I was taking a shower - I allways take a long hot shower, followed by all-the-way-cold - I was thinking about the DR. It seems to me it is more or less a reflex - like flinching - or at least has an aspect that is reflexive (cold water over the face, pressure etc. etc.) Now - all this other conditioning - good as it is - aside - I was thinking the ideal would be to be able to consciously engage the DR; directly and intentionally. This is done with the 'flinch' reflex in internal martial arts. That is; instead of repressing it by imposing structured patterns on the body, as in many 'external' styles, we learn to go with it and channel it.

So I wonder if it might not be possible to, with practice, directly evoke the DR by repetedly exposing oneself to the feeling of it via the various natural stimuli that bring it on, until it can be brought on by will even outside of those condition by, for example, recalling the feeling of cold water flowing across your face etc. etc.

 

[sebastien murat]

My definition of specificity:

Replication, in training, of movement positions, range of motion, movement intensity (frequency, speed & load), movement duration and temporal application (time of day) as found in the actual performance.

Ideally, the various pieces of the performance are trained in the sequence found in the formance and as a complete whole. But this depends on your technique, without which your simply installingand reinforcing the worng program.

seb

 

[fogish]

Fondue: I think it would be possible to train to make the DR come faster or easier. Have you heard of Lewis Gordon Pugh? He swims in cold water, long distance with only a speedo, cap and goggles. This is a quote from his website: "Second, I am also able to elevate my core body temperature by as much as 1.4°C (3.5F) before I even get into the water. This phenomenon, now known as "anticipatory thermogenises", has to our knowledge not been noted in any other human being." I think that is the other side of the coin that you are going for, but I am not sure if that is something he has trained (anticipatory part) or if it is the bodies natural reaction after consistent exposure to cold water for long periods of time. He does note that the blood is shunted from the limbs to his core upon entering the water as well.

Sebastien: I was always taught to train at 80% of whatever my end goal was and occasionally perform the full 100% to see where you stand in relation to your goal. I had to play around a bit to find my own personal recovery time depending upon my previous workout. Sometimes you push yourself too far, other times not far enough, in both cases you do not progress as quickly since you did not get the optimal rest in between sessions. My own experience with soccer (football) training and your definition of specificity seem to go hand in hand.

 

[sebastien murat]

Adequate recoveries between sessions is a hard thing to determine. My rule of thumb: better to hold off until you're hungy to do it. Between reps: when your mind stops drifting all over the place and you can concentrate.

Seb

 

[laminar]

Hi Seb!

Great thread!

It seems to me there are two goals common among freedivers that are in some degree of opposition here. Number one is deeper, longer, further - those who want to keep bettering their personal bests in line diving situations at MAX intensity. Number two is to become confident and adept at recreational/spearo/photo freediving enough to achieve significant depth or bottom time and surface with a huge margin of safety.

I think among those of us who are dedicated to the second form of diving, our enjoyment and progression often comes from a stint as a competitive line diver. Of course, there are many who have always just been diving in a self-dependent environment (no direct supervision or safety). But I think the line diving phase in my experience was crucial in many ways to becoming an efficient recreational diver.

Specificity is the mot du jour. I can think of several specific elements of diving that line diving, if approached well, can develop:

1. Surface preparation (ie.maintaining full energy stores)
2. Swimming technique
3. Pressure compensation / Equalizing / Chest wall adaptation
4. Buoyancy management
5. Hydrodynamics
6. Psychological reaction to depth, pressure, darkness, breathing reflex, hypoxia, narcosis, etc...
7. Descent/Ascent profile (ie. speed)
8. Mental preparation
9. Body sensitivity (developing sense of when to abort a dive)
10. Surfacing technique (how to stay conscious when deep in hypoxia)
11. Energy conservation (using the minimum energy required)
12. DCS avoidance strategies
13. Experiencing the edge of your limit

These really are best learned in the water. This list is not exhaustive, obviously.

Even if recreational divers want to avoid line diving altogether and max effort dives, they would do well to cover as many of these specific elements as possible.

I think the challenge in diving to your potential in a competitive setting is to isolate which element of the athletic act of diving is holding you back the most. For swimmers, it is minimizing drag. And so the best technicians succeed more often than the best athletes. Alex Popov would spend most of the day drilling back and forth at slow speed to imprint perfect technique. He still holds the world record for 50m sprint. He did very little "training," and instead practiced swimming as perfectly as possible. Physical conditioning is important, but the fittest person in the world has no chance of swimming well if their technique sucks.

So what element holds freedivers back from achieving their potential limit? I'd say most would find their limit on the list above. Once those elements are mastered, I think most would say that apnea ability is the limiting factor.

But I think now it's our knowledge of how the body works in deep dives that is the limiting factor. :rofl I think what you are essentially saying, Seb, is that most people are diving without taking full advantage of the body's reaction to pressure and water. And that before you can even start to say "this is how to train" definitively, we all need to understand it much, much better.

On the other hand, I would also like to know what you think about preparing and training for serial recreational dives. I feel that maximizing DR is possible to do to a high enough level without great stress and anxiety. Any other thoughts on how to maximize potential for serial dives? Ideally, without going the route of line diving to max effort.

Another way of putting it: If I only have access to a pool most of the year and want to become a better all around freediver, perhaps entering a competition once in a while, but mainly enjoying good recreational dives to depths and times deeper and longer than last year, what should I do?

And is it going to hurt? :crutch

Pete

 

[Fondueset]

Hey Pete,

I just read the excellent article on monofinning you have up on LearnFreediving.com. Your writing ability is starting to piss me off; I might have to kick your ass.