SWB: Reducing the Risk

[sebastien murat]

Have no illusion: its going to hurt!

Sorry!

Though the methods differ, its the intensity at which you train at that reaps, or not, the rewards. Freediving as in life: little effort = little reward, big effort = big reward.

What is serial diving ability? It is a loose term. There are several training parameter to consider: surface recovery duration, dive duration, number of divesdiving mode (wait, chase or a bit of both?) & depth. Throwing-in the varying ingredients, in various doses and sequences will result in different outcomes.

The question one needs to ask one's self is what is the objective? Is there a short-term and, or a long-term objective to consider as factoring for each will produce different results.

Unless you tell me your objectives I can't tell you which recipe to employ. So, throw me your objective(s) and I'll give you the best recipe I know.

Seb

 

[sebastien murat]

PS: they have to be measurable objectives, no vague goals please! You'll only confuse me more than I already am!

Seb

 

[fabrice]

Really great thread & info Seb !

Here are my goals :
Recreationnal diving down to 35m, 2min diving time, both wait and chase (mainly to do some photography). I'd like to be able to do it during 3/4 hours with as few recovery as possible (say 4min recovery).
I don't know what you call long term objective, but let's say I want to reach this goal in a year... Today I'm able to do serial FRC to 20m, 1min30 with 3min recovery.

Fabrice

 

[laminar]

Fondueset - beware my Ling Cod Kung Fu! It's a DB article reprinted with permission and minor alterations.

Fabrice - 35m serial dives on 4 min intervals may get you bent, my friend, if you don't do a deco stop. Ask efattah about that....

Seb - I asked the question on behalf of freedivers wondering if the theory and practices you are talking about can benefit them and how. But you are right, we need specific goals.

Currently, I can do FRC to 25-35m with a dive time of 1'30"-2'10" for fun. I would normally only do 2-3 of those and then have fun in depths less than 25m for fun for the rest of the session.

Increasing bottom time by 30 seconds or depth by 5m on average (I'm fine with sacrificing one for the other) would be great as more and more of my time underwater is spent crawling along the bottom and taking photos/video.

In another completely separate goal, I'd like to dive deeper than 42m no fins with FRC. But I already know what you'd tell me to do... :crutch

Pete

 

[sebastien murat]

Pete,

I know...I asked for effect.

Seb

 

[efattah]

So I wonder if it might not be possible to, with practice, directly evoke the DR by repetedly exposing oneself to the feeling of it via the various natural stimuli that bring it on, until it can be brought on by will even outside of those condition by, for example, recalling the feeling of cold water flowing across your face etc. etc.

I am convinced this is possible, in fact I have been talking to Laminar about it for nearly a year. Almost any unconscious response can be made conscious with enough practice. The person who can voluntarily evoke a powerful dive reflex would have unimagineable dive ability. That single ability would overwhelm everything else.

The question then becomes how to train to develop a conscious-will induced dive response. I have some ideas, but I haven't had the time to try them yet. I think the best approach is to follow methods that other pioneers have used in bringing unconscious functions into conscious control. The two most famous of which are Jack Schwarz and Yogi Ramacharaka.

Another path would be to use the 'autogenic' method which was attempted by Pelizzari.

 

[fpernett]

Heart rate stuff: its not the aboslute HR but the trends (up or down) that tell me whether you have anything left over Frank.

Seb

Let me guess...

If my HR is going up during a max attempt, then improving my DR will take me more meters ahead, on the other side if my HR is going down, then there is little room to improve unless I can get a huge increasing of Myoglobin in my muscles...I'm wrong?

I also believe that the long and hard road is the best way to get "real" physiologic adaptation to freediving

 

[sebastien murat]

I think that your only allocated a certian number of heart beats on a dive. The way you allocate them is important. All, the litterally hundreds of single-case study tests (on myself) indicate that the number one deteriming factor is your perception of the dive and your motivation. If you perceive the dive as really, really hard but your motivated to go the distance then HR will be really high initially but very low and quickly. Depending on the thoughts you have during the dive will determine where you end up. And, you cannot chop and change and hope to go far if you have negative (bail-out) thoughts.

S

 

[GreekDiver]

multiple cold showers every day for the winnar~

 

[fogish]

I have done the cold showers every day thing. It wasn't for diving, it was after 45 min. of military PT and then running 5 miles, I was not allowed warm water for a shower (even if I had not exercised). After about a week I got completely used to it and no longer rushed my showers and later in life it took me a while to get comfortable with warm showers again. The one thing I remember about it was I had to totally and completely relax otherwise it was just horrible. As soon as I relaxed, I guess accepting my situation, things were fine and I could barely register that I was cold.

I have no idea what that has to do with anything, for some reason my brain just had to get that out, maybe it was a traumatic experience. To this very day I take luke warm showers instead of hot and occasionally go all the way cold again.

If anyone seriously has ideas on ways to train for a conscious DR I will be a guinea pig. I am a blank slate right now, haven't been diving in 7 months, haven't done any apnea training for 6 months. I can handle any type of cold, just send me a message.

 

[shoutatthesky]

Inducing the DR by will - brilliant stuff. Being a mere beginner student of this weird and exceedingly wonderful world of freediving I am not fully schooled in the exact nature of the dive response but I understand it mainly consists of these elements - lowered HR, peripheral vasoconstriction, splenic contraction, immersion diuresis. Any more?
I certainly notice the immersion diuresis more when a dive seems to be going well- i.e. good down times, relaxed feeling. This is also more pronounced on ocean dives compared to pool sessions.
I do little to no warmup except stretching and maybe 10 mins or so of meditation. (I achieved my PB static of 4:15 with a 30 second hold as warmup so favour the 'straight into it' approach)
How do I really know if I am fully in DR mode?

 

[laminar]

I have done the cold showers every day thing. It wasn't for diving, it was after 45 min. of military PT and then running 5 miles, I was not allowed warm water for a shower (even if I had not exercised). After about a week I got completely used to it and no longer rushed my showers and later in life it took me a while to get comfortable with warm showers again. The one thing I remember about it was I had to totally and completely relax otherwise it was just horrible. As soon as I relaxed, I guess accepting my situation, things were fine and I could barely register that I was cold.

That's exactly how you need to approach no suit freediving - plus knowing that pushing it too far leads to dangerous arrythmias in the heart.

It really is a great feeling when you are in the water during the winter and completely relaxed and calm, even if it is for only five or six minutes or so.

 

[cdavis]

Fondueset,

Anderson York put together a training program designed to take you in and out of DR quickly and more deeply. Might be something in that which you would find useful. Look in Beginner freediving, "A freediving question" about Feb, 07, 13th post. If its interesting, PM me and I'll share my results.

Connor

 

[Fondueset]

My shower work has been very hot to suddenly ice cold (during the winter, in particular, the water is VERY cold) with the idea to not sort of clamp up around the shock but just stay relaxed. Sometimes I do a little kapalabhati and try to maintain the rythm right through the transition. other times I just to a sort of pensive/open retention and work the breath around in my body as the water hits it.

Will do, Connor - sound interesting.

In theory it should be possible to work with imagination/feeling attention or even more directly.

 

[shoutatthesky]

[ame=http://www.spearboard.com/showpost.php?p=60524&postcount=20]Spearboard Spearfishing Community - View Single Post - Freedive training[/ame] - Courtesy of Anderson York
Warm-up:
· Hop in pool w/out mask or fins. Swim slowly on your back for a few laps. Work on slow, concise movements and focus on stretching a bit. Take your time on these laps.
· Next, flip over and get your face wet. Do a couple laps like this. Do them however you feel comfortable getting back and forth across the pool. Trick is to do them slowly and smoothly(ie. don’t be splashing all over the place).
· Objective in warm-up is to work on stretching, controlling your movements with gliding(not constant kicking or paddling) and getting used to the water temp and surroundings.

Drills:
· Put on mask, fins and weight belt and start 4 laps/reps of dynamics, but come up at the slightest bit of discomfort. Note: THIS IS NOT A TEST TO SEE HOW GOOD YOU ARE AT DYNAMICS! I DON’T CARE IF YOU CAN DO 10 LAPS ON YOUR FIRST ATTEMPT! Listen to your body and come up for air as SOON as you feel stress in your lungs/throat. You will defeat the purpose here if you push pass this discomfort.
· Return to your "starting side" and take a few minutes to breath up. Slow breaths, please. Diaphramatic if you know how(belly breathing).

Levels:
· If you experience excessive discomfort in any of these sets, remain at the previous set until you have become comfortable with completing it correctly. If you are unable to progress to the next set, you may repeat the same set as many times as you like in order to fulfill a workout. Allow your body to adapt to these routines over several workouts. I promise you will notice improvements in just a few sessions.

Training

Sprint set:
· Breath up adequately and sprint underwater to other end with arms extended. Eyes should be focused 30 degrees up from straight down. (ie. 45 degrees would be halfway between straight down and straight forward, so less than halfway.) Upon reaching the other end, surface and proceed to take 5 long hard breaths. Immediately sprint to the other side.
· Apnea Recovery (AR): Upon reaching the starting side, surface and take 2 long hard breaths. Upon the 2nd inhalation of these 2 breaths, immediately submerge face back in water. (Tip: hang on to side w/ both hands and let your body float back behind you. You should not be supporting yourself in anyway other than your hands. And, try not to hold yourself up too high in the water. Let your face submerge w/ the weight of your body like people do in static apnea). While submerged, count to 10 (personally, I like to count ten heartbeats.. this interval should be pretty short this way and should lengthen as heart rate comes down). Come up for 1 long hard breath and resubmerge for another count of 10. Repeat two more times with single-breath AR’s. (Note: if a count of ten is too easy for you, you didn’t sprint hard enough.) Total AR reps should be 4. First one with 2 breaths and final three with 1 breath(ie. one exhalation, one inhalation).
· Note: always adequately catch your breath before starting each rep in all these sets.
· Repeat sprints for 4 more reps (one rep equals two laps, one up followed w/ five breaths and one back followed with AR.) Total sprint set reps: 5

Wall sprint set:
· Breath up adequately and slowly swim to other end with arms extended. Work on streamlining your body. Upon reaching the other end, do not surface, but proceed to swim "against" the wall (in place) in a sprinting fashion(hence, wall sprints). Come up at first sign of discomfort and take 5 long hard breaths. Immediately swim to other side slowly and repeat wall sprints. Push past comfort level, but surface only seconds into this. Once surfaced, start AR(4 reps). Note: AR’s should always be performed at "starting side" of pool.
· Repeat wall sprints for 4 more reps. Total wall sprint reps: 5

Static sprint set:
· Breath up adequately and submerge face down(body in position similar to AR’s w/ hands on side of pool). Remain face down for a count of 10, then turn and sprint underwater to opposite side. Surface and take 5 long hard breaths. Immediately sprint back to other side underwater. Once surfaced, start AR(4 reps).
· Repeat static sprints. Start static with a count of 20. Sprint to other side. 5 long, hard breaths. Sprint back. Upon returning sprint to "starting side", remain submerged for a count of 10. Then surface and start AR(4 reps).
· Repeat static sprints. Increase static counts by 10 on each leg. Therefore, your reps should look like this: Rep#One-10count start, 0count finish; #Two-20count start, 10count finish; #Three-30count start, 20count finish; #Four-40count start, 30count finish. (Note: adjust sprint speed to accommodate static ability. Subsequent training sessions should facilitate abilities to accomplish these numbers.)
· Total static sprint reps: 4

Static wall sprint set:
· Breath up adequately and submerge face down for a count of 10. Turn and swim slowly to the other end, underwater. Upon reaching the other end, do not surface, but proceed with wall sprints. Surface. 5 long hard breaths, immediately followed by slow swim underwater back to starting side of pool. Finish with AR(4 reps).
· Repeat static wall sprints. Start static with a count of 20. Slowly swim to other side underwater. Repeat wall sprints. Surface at first sign of discomfort. 5 long hard breaths. Slow swim back. Wall sprint to discomfort. Hold static for a count of 10. Surface. AR(4 reps).
· Repeat static wall sprints(follow static times for static sprints). Follow each with AR(4 reps).
· Total static wall sprint reps: 4

Static sprint + wall sprint set:
· Breath up adequately and submerge face down for a count of 10. Turn and sprint to the other end, underwater. Upon reaching the other end, do not surface, but proceed with wall sprints. Surface. 5 long hard breaths, immediately followed by a sprint underwater back to starting side of pool. Proceed with wall sprints. Finish with AR(4 reps).
· Repeat Static sprints + wall sprints. Follow static counts from preceding sets and repeat Static sprints + wall sprints. Finish at "starting side" with increasing counts in static. 2nd through 4th rep should end in wall sprints, followed by statics.
· Total static wall sprint reps: 4

Supreme set:
· Breath up adequately and submerge face down for a count of 10. Proceed with wall sprints for a count of 10, turn and sprint to other end, wall sprint for a count of 10, static for a count of 10. Surface. 5 long, hard breaths. Down for wall sprint(10 count), sprint to "starting side", wall sprint(10 count), static(10 count). Surface. AR(5 reps, after 5th rep inhalation, submerge for 60 count static).
· Increase all counts by 5 each successive rep for 3 more reps. 4th rep should have all 25 counts in each phase.

Cooldown:
· Remove mask and fins.
· Swim a few laps or so to stretch and recuperate.
· Get out of the pool and take a hot shower.
· Go home and pass out on your most comfortable couch.



Training theory

What I’m trying to accomplish here is to force your body into and out of the dive reflex. It seems that the harder you push yourself into it, the more difficult it is to get out of it. Yes, this is a good thing, but in order to train your body to obtain a deeper level of the reflex, I believe you need to oppose the human and aquatic instincts with increasing levels of proponents AND stress. I’m trying to accomplish this by increasing the stress with increasingly more difficult routines and increasing the reflex adaptability by building on the body’s recognition of the lack of available O2 during exertion by following everything with these recovery drills(AR). I believe the body DOES want to adapt to a deeper level of the reflex, but only after it has been forced to work harder to get there. This training is quite complex and has required a more dynamic approach than the simple "hold your breath and suppress the contractions" method. Coincidentally, this training routine is "fun" and quite a bit less stressful than the aforementioned. Over the past two years of basically only having a pool at my disposal, I have put these theories to test and have come up with these routines. I feel they have produced amazing results with not only myself, but several other guinea pigs, ahem… I mean, "People"… in all different levels of apnea ability.

Please feel free to email me with questions, comments or suggestions. I came up with these drills with the help of many others, so I’m still open to any logical or scientific reasoning from all of you.

Enjoy!
Anderson York

 

[Mullins]

Good grief, is somebody paying him by the word?

A common training session for me is:

- Get in
- Swim 70% dynamic (150m)
- Rest 5 mins
- Repeat another 2-4 times
- Get out

or, for variety:

-Get in
-Swim 95% dynamic
-Get out

 

[laminar]

Good grief, is somebody paying him by the word?

A common training session for me is:

- Get in
- Swim 70% dynamic (150m)
- Rest 5 mins
- Repeat another 2-4 times
- Get out

or, for variety:

-Get in
-Swim 95% dynamic
-Get out

rofl rofl rofl

 

[laminar]

Seriously, any info on what results people are achieving with Anderson's program? Seems quite involved.

Seb, you should describe what you used to do to train for your CNF pb... now that was intense (and hilarious in the telling).

 

[fpernett]

Good grief, is somebody paying him by the word?

A common training session for me is:

- Get in
- Swim 70% dynamic (150m)
- Rest 5 mins
- Repeat another 2-4 times
- Get out

or, for variety:

-Get in
-Swim 95% dynamic
-Get out

I think is serious, similar to mine (not in the distance)

 

[amihov]

Every thing is very interesting . I don't get what is the point of mixing tow types of exercise in the same day. Isn't it better to train one day for endurance and one day for strength. It will be better for your hard .