To Comp or not to Comp.. That is the question.

[podge]

Great fish there John!

Tell me though, as the people walked over to you, you knew that it could go two ways and I bet you were both relived and happy when the people acted positively towards you both...

We must all have a winter pairs dive and all that follows!

Winter pairs dive, umm sounds interesting.
Would that be with pies and beer?
Put my name down baby!
Power to the people and up the revolution comrades.

Good job we’re all spearo’s together and can take all this in our stride. :ko

 

[Davidocallaghan]

So why were you fishing for Wrasse then? And small Pollock..??

BRYN who are you asking about the wrasse/pollock

 

[Almostafish]

It was for who'ever Grunter saw ( Paul rositer ) but then I remember myself shooting wrasse to bait my lobster pots and I have in the past shot small pollock for fish cakes, so I have no moral high ground.

But I did use everything!

 

[Bill McIntyre]

Pastor,

I think you are trying to dress YOUR and the minorities opinion as a public opinion, which is very misleading to the say the least. We are still waiting for evidence of this public opinion/backlash. You give me real evidence and I will take notice.

Cheers Paul

The problem is that when you finally get concrete evidence of adverse public opinion, it may come in the form of some MP being goaded by his constituents into introducing legislation banning spearfishing, and then it be too late to do anything about it. Of course I'm not familiar with your political and regulatory environment- maybe it will come in the form of some regulatory decision in response to complaints by the public, but you get the general idea.

And BTW, could we all just stipulate to the fact that trawlers, long-liners, purse seiners, etc. are far more destructive to the environment, take far more fish, and result in far more bycatch than spearfishing?

It gets a bit old reading that repeatedly. You are preaching to the choir. We all know that to be true. Its just that its beside the point of how comps may or may not damage our public image.

Life ain't fair.

 

[Davidocallaghan]

It was for who'ever Grunter saw ( KKDavids? ) but then I remember myself shooting wrasse to bait my lobster pots and I have in the past shot small pollock for fish cakes, so I have no moral high ground.

But I did use everything!

but grunter saw nobody if you read his post i am lost . So reading your post you are a pro fisherman with pots as well as a pro Diver

 

[Almostafish]

Paul rositer, if it was you that got out of the water at broadsands and walked back, my girlfriend and two friends spoke to you as you got out of the water. They all live and spear in the area, one has a marine biology Bsc and a Msc in coastal management and works in the industry, and were very disappointed to see your catch of small Pollock and wrasse.

Ok.. Grunters girlfriend and their two friends. Sorry.

Pro fisherman? Not sure what makes you think that as anybody can run up to 3 pots around Portland as long as they don't use the catch for commercial means..??

Pro freediver.. Do you mean I am qualified in both freediving and medical care, cold water truma aid and all the other stuff that goes with it then Yep! If you mean me spending a few weekends trying to help the right people be safe and charging for my lost time then Yep also..


Hope this helps clear things up.

 

[Davidocallaghan]

Paul rositer, if it was you that got out of the water at broadsands and walked back, my girlfriend and two friends spoke to you as you got out of the water. They all live and spear in the area, one has a marine biology Bsc and a Msc in coastal management and works in the industry, and were very disappointed to see your catch of small Pollock and wrasse.

Ok.. Grunters girlfriend and their two friends. Sorry.

Pro fisherman? Not sure what makes you think that as anybody can run up to 3 pots around Portland as long as they don't use the catch for commercial means..??

Pro freediver.. Do you mean I am qualified in both freediving and medical care, cold water truma aid and all the other stuff that goes with it then Yep! If you mean me spending a few weekends trying to help the right people be safe and charging for my lost time then Yep also..


Hope this helps clear things up.

(1) IF you put pots down any where you need to have a reg number ie on you boat (2) you may be wright

 

[Almostafish]

I pot by lugging then down the cliffs and then swimming them out from shore!

You don't need to register them around Portland as long as its just for your use honestly!

 

[kale]

The problem is that when you finally get concrete evidence of adverse public opinion, it may come in the form of some MP being goaded by his constituents into introducing legislation banning spearfishing, and then it be too late to do anything about it. Of course I'm not familiar with your political and regulatory environment- maybe it will come in the form of some regulatory decision in response to complaints by the public, but you get the general idea.

And BTW, could we all just stipulate to the fact that trawlers, long-liners, purse seiners, etc. are far more destructive to the environment, take far more fish, and result in far more bycatch than spearfishing?

It gets a bit old reading that repeatedly. You are preaching to the choir. We all know that to be true. Its just that its beside the point of how comps may or may not damage our public image.

Life ain't fair.

Bill,
I respectfully disagree. Yeah we all know what commercials do, but does the general public? We can all help our public image by educating the tourists and people we see at the beach. Take the time to tell them that we have a great respect for the ocean and that we dislike the damage that commercial fishing does, so we choose to catch our own.
So what if a few people have a irrational emotional respone to a comp? Does that hurt us? No! And I don't think we should be afraid or hide from that small population. So the more people we can educate (maybe even at comps) the less we have to worry.
Kale

 

[spaghetti]

Its just that its beside the point of how comps may or may not damage our public image.

Life ain't fair.

Bill I made the opposite question but nobody seems to bother: if we, the spearos, start bashing and lashing spearfishing competions, under charges of potential destructiveness, how will it help the public image of spearfishing in general?
...
In my country it didn't help. For years we've been making comps in total secret: no press, no publicity, don't ask don't tell, stricter and stricter limits on bag, size and per species, boats reduced to minimal, no public weigh-ins.
We've made competitions virtually disappear from the public attention. So the attention of "abolitionists" shifted onto recreational spearfishing and, as a matter of fact we're very close to a ban on RECREATIONAL spearfishing over here. There's an extremely hard campaign going on, but "ban campaigners" never mention competitions.
...
When I say I've been boo'ed by passers by for a single fish speared on a recreational dive, this is what scares me: we kill animals, and this is not accepted by lots of people who don't even know that competitons actually exist. And now we should tell them that WE want to ban competitive spearfishing because it has a potential to deplete the reefs? First: it's not true. Second: reminds to me the story of the man who cut his own cock to give a sorrow to his wife.

 

[Davidocallaghan]

I pot by lugging then down the cliffs and then swimming them out from shore!

You don't need to register them around Portland as long as its just for your use honestly!

ok bryn i take you point for now o are you comming to the AGM i feel you have some good points to put forward cheers Dave o

 

[Bill McIntyre]

We've made competitions virtually disappear from the public attention. So the attention of "abolitionists" shifted onto recreational spearfishing and, as a matter of fact we're very close to a ban on RECREATIONAL spearfishing over here. There's an extremely hard campaign going on, but "ban campaigners" never mention competitions.
...
When I say I've been boo'ed by passers by for a single fish speared on a recreational dive, this is what scares me: we kill animals, and this is not accepted by lots of people who don't even know that competitons actually exist. And now we should tell them that WE want to ban competitive spearfishing because it has a potential to deplete the reefs? First: it's not true. Second: reminds to me the story of the man who cut his own cock to give a sorrow to his wife.

If I understand you, you are saying that only because there were not visible comps to oppose, the public shifted to banning all spearfishing. If so, that doesn't make much sense to me. If there were comps to oppose, isn't it likely that that those same people who want to ban all spearfishing would just include comps by default?

In any event, I'm thinking that we are talking past each other in some ways, possibly because competition in European countries is much more controlled by centralized bodies. In Southern CA at least, each competiton is simply put on by a club, usually for its own members. I'm not proposing that any central organization make a big deal of a public announcement that said "See, we are giving up competitions."

It would simply be a matter of not scheduling the competition this year. I doubt that any members of the public would have their calenders marked and conclude that they had the competitions on the run when the comps didn't happen. They just wouldn't happen to walk by a park or beach where a bunch of guys had a bunch of fish all in one place, with whatever adverse consequences that might have.

 

[paulrossiter]

I do apologise if I’ve hurt anyone’s feelings regarding my earlier post, which was not my intention. Just to clarify a few points Re: the BSA the observations and comment that I have made are mine not the BSAs. I am a paid up member of the BSA but not a member of the committee or involved in ay official capacity within the organisation. When individuals respond to my posts and wag their finger about the BSA, they should actually be wagging their finger at me.

Grunter, no, it was not me that you spoke to on the beach. I was a spectator on the day due to an injury so spent the day wandering around the area, that’s why I questioned you story about the negative responses from people on the beach other than your party of friends.

Unfortunately, it appears that we (you and I) are at point where we can’t move past the current position regarding our apposed point of view of the perceived public perception of spearfishing.

 

[grunter]

Paul, I apprreciate this discussion could go on and on but just to clarify there were other people who complained apart from the 3 people that I know. The letters to the gazette were from other local people.

I am not totally against all competition just feel that the methods of competing at S. Milton on that day were not condusive to enhance the public perception of British Spearfishing.

 

[Mr. X]

I have mixed feeling about this. Competitions & "governing bodies" are not for me (everybody wants to make rules these days it seems). I spear for food and that brings a high degree of satisfaction, that's enough for me. However, I don't think that means that others who feel differently should be stopped. The competition spearos seem keen to improve their sport and that's to be commended. They certainly appear to be proficient. As long as it remains small and infrequent, it seems relatively harmless. It's not a sport that would scale-up well though.

I was at Thurlstone (great location) after the competition this year & the few people present were quite enthralled by the whole thing. So, I guess it varies from year to year and person to person. There were still fish around when I dived there immediately afterwards.

 

[spaghetti]

If I understand you, you are saying that only because there were not visible comps to oppose, the public shifted to banning all spearfishing. If so, that doesn't make much sense to me.

No I didn't say "only because", and I didn't mean any consequential link.
...
Forgive me Bill, but I'm trying to speak simple about a complicated problem in a foreign language. Could be I didn't make it to reach the point.
...
However I just meant that the public hostility against competitive spearfishing is only a small problem. The big problem is the raising hostility of the public against spearfishing in general....We're under crossfire not because of competitions, but because we kill wild animals.
...
In this situation, I don't think it's convenient for us to say that comps have a potential of destructiveness on fish stocks or even on local reefs fish populations. This can be used by our "enemies" against recreational spearfishing too.

 

[ILDiver]

Education is the key imho. If you want to compete, then compete. If not, stay home. But when it comes time to defend the sport in general, everyone needs to stand together. It's not sport fishers, it's not spear fishers that cause the problems with fish stocks around the world.

Are the oceans under attack? Yes, but it's easier for people to attack what they see rather than the true problem. People don't want to think that the fish they just bought in the store came from the cause. It's like conspiracy theories, the stories are easier to believe than the facts, because they are spoken louder and closer to what they want to hear.

 

[Robbo66]

No I didn't say "only because", and I didn't mean any consequential link.
...
Forgive me Bill, but I'm trying to speak simple about a complicated problem in a foreign language. Could be I didn't make it to reach the point.
...
However I just meant that the public hostility against competitive spearfishing is only a small problem. The big problem is the raising hostility of the public against spearfishing in general....We're under crossfire not because of competitions, but because we kill wild animals.
...
In this situation, I don't think it's convenient for us to say that comps have a potential of destructiveness on fish stocks or even on local reefs fish populations. This can be used by our "enemies" against recreational spearfishing too.

Hi Spaghetti,

Do you not think that PART of the reason you may be facing a total ban in Italy is PARTLY due to the fact that you did hold comps/public weigh-in's that highlighted to many the less attractive side of spearfishing ?.
Again, I have not heard one nugget of evidence that comps enhance our sport to the general public in any way, just the same old argument that trawelrs/long liners do more damage etc....believe me we are aware of that.

I am struggling to understand that as you were booed yourself, with one fish, how you think that comps will enhance our position as a recreational group ?.

You admit that 'public hostility to comps is a small problem', and seem to be contradicting your pro comp argument when admitting that the public already have a 'hostility to spearfishing in general'.
How on earth do you expect the public, who are already booing at a lone spearo with one fish, to suddenly change their opinion, clap enthusiastically and crack open the champagne at some comp weigh in ?.
Just give me ONE good reason how comps benefit the sport and the publics perception of the sport and I and many others would listen, evaluate the point(s) and consider.

 

[spaghetti]

Robbo what we're all struggling to understand is how to save our sport, and we're not finding an agreement on the best strategy.
This discussion is becoming like a table tennis game. You keep on asking me how comps might benefit the image of spearfishing, while I keep asking you how attacking competitions may benefit spearfishing. None is answering each other's question.
That's why I decided to answer my own question to make my thought clear. The answer is:
NO, attacking competitions won't help the public image of spearfishing in general. Because if we admit that comps have a potential heavy impact on fish, we admit that recreational spearfishing too has the same destructive potential, or even more.
First, you have to know this.
In my country, for recreational spearing, a single spearo has a legal total harvest limit of 5 kilograms per day. This limit doesn't apply to competitions: comps do have size and per species limits, but the harvest is virtually unlimited in terms of total weight. So, in theory, competitions are more destructive than recreational spearfishing. But this is not necessarily true.
Let's see if mathematics help a bit:
Comps: At the 2006 italian national championship for teams, sixty (60) of the most skilled spearos of the country took part to the comp. At the end of the day, the total harvest of the championship was about 35 kilograms of fish. Definitely, it wasn't a fishy day: it was not 35 kg individual, it was 35 kg TOTAL. And the average of the other comps is not much higher than this.
Recreational: put together seven recreational spearos for a group dive. On a lucky day, they all reach the harvest limit of 5 kilograms. How much is 7x5? It's 35. Now you see that just 7 recreational spearos can be, virtually but possibly and legally, as "destructive" as the whole lot of competitors of a National Championship. With a big differnce: the national chanmps are just an annual event, it occurs once in a year. While the recreational guys can dive and hunt every god blessed day: how much fish can they potentially take off the sea compared to the competition guys?
To resume: Numbers, even virtual and theoretical numbers like those I gave, could be used against us if we say that comps are heavy impact, because the same numbers show that recreational spearfishing has a bigger impact, potentially and substantially.
--
ALL we have to say to those ladies and gents is: NO, spearfishing has no serious impact on fish stocks in any form, competitive or recreational, and there is no ground at all to push for a ban of spearfishing AT ALL. We must be united in saying this loud.

 

[Robbo66]

Hi Spaghetti,

I do understand and respect your views entirely, but we cannot simply ignore the comp issue for fear of raising the issue.
Attacking competitions that will at best result in a universal agreement that they are indeed a potential threat to the whole sport and should be stopped, or at worst some legislative agreement on catch numbers or max weights to be implemented into the comp book regulations, is a positive move in protecting the sport IMO.

The publics perception of comps is that they are pretty distastful for all previous reasons stated. They are not interested in how many fish recreational spearos catch in one day, what the regs are in Italy/France or anywhere else. What they are interested in is whats there...in front of them...glassy eyed, in the car park.

We all know that in reality, even comps once or twice a year have little impact on fish stocks in the area....but for the last time, joe public doesn't get this and as such will write, as has happened, to the local gazette and raise negative publicity about comps and by association then link this to the whole sport.

At least we've had a debate...but I'm afraid I'm calling it a day.

All the best,

Rob