Sorry, but how exactly do someone mess up his residual volume by extreme packing? I'm bit concerned couse i do bit of that myself... from my normal 7l whit out packing to 12l with packing...
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Tom Sietas: new website / new record attempts
- Thread startertrux
- Start date
Thread Status: Hello
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Sorry, but how exactly do someone mess up his residual volume by extreme packing? I'm bit concerned couse i do bit of that myself... from my normal 7l whit out packing to 12l with packing...
Interesting stuff there trux... maybe that's one of reasons why some people are affected with "blood spitting" after deep dives... that was always a mystery to me, why that happens? I was seeing people doing relative shallow dives to approx 50m, equalizing with no problem, doing the dive with easy, being relaxed all the way, and still spit blood after... And I just can't explane why that happens...
Oh yes, there are many signs and a very serious suspicion that lung squeeze (or blood spitting, lung edema, or simply pulmonary/tracheal barotrauma) is very closely related to packing. Read more about it for example here:
lung squeeze @ APNEA.cz
or this thread in DB is quite interesting too:
http://forums.deeperblue.net/specialist-advanced/65690-depth-pressure-squeeze.html
lung squeeze @ APNEA.cz
or this thread in DB is quite interesting too:
http://forums.deeperblue.net/specialist-advanced/65690-depth-pressure-squeeze.html
Well trux, tanx for this, this is now whole another ballgame... Like most i was on completely wrong road, and under completely wrong impression what relay happens when one had lung squeeze. I will study this carefully.
Well, the documents do not claim that packing is the primary reason of lung squeeze, or that you won't get lung squeeze if you do not pack. They only tell packing may be an important and a frequent factor in many lung squeeze cases, although it sounds paradoxical.
Previously I expressed also another suspicion (though absolutely not supported by any research) that some cases of lung squeeze may surprisingly actually happen during the final stage of the ascent. Imagine a freediver who strongly packs on the surface - the overpressure serves to stuff his/her lungs with some extra air to be used for equalizing, and to allow descending to a greater depth before reaching the negative pressure (hence actually preventing lung squeeze). I see no reason why it should not work for this very purpose. On my mind the risk it much greater at the very beginning of the dive, when the lungs are under the full pressure (higher than the environment) - a sudden move during the duck dive, or the first strong kicks may induce an injury.
When descending just few meters, the risk should be eliminated, because the pressures are now in equilibrium. Now what happens during the dive: both due to the the depth, and due to the increasing diving response, the progressing vasoconstriction moves blood into the veins and capillaries in the lungs, reducing so their inner volume and preventing so the negative pressure in the lungs and avoiding barotrauma in the depth (Blood Shift). So far so good.
Now you start ascending, the environment pressure decreases, and the lungs expand. You'd think you are now safe from the barotrauma, but on my mind the worst moment only comes as you approach the surface - the pressure inside the lungs starts to raise over the level of the environment, not only because of the initial packing, but the overpressure is amplified by the still progressing vasoconstriction, and reduced lung volume. So actually you finish with even higher pressure in the lungs than you started when fully packed. And of course, adding the fact that the blood pressure is much higher at the end of a breath-hold, and that there may be quite strong contractions in this phase of the dive, on my mind it increases the risk of a barotrauma (lung squeeze) very seriously. And especially at those divers who use a nose-clip or closing their epiglottis, or the soft palate+mouth on the ascent - which does not allow the overpressure to leave by the nose or mouth.
The earlier mentioned loss of elasticity of the alveoli tissue due to frequent extreme packing may be another factor that may increase the risk of a barotrauma during the ascent - if the alveoli walls collapse due to the lost elasticity, instead of shrinking, touching so each other, I imagine it can happen that they stay collapsed (sticked together) either during the whole ascent, decreasing so again additionally the lung volume (and increasing the resulting overpressure), or at some point will explosively fill with the high-pressured air from the non-collapsed parts, potentially damaging them.
I repeat that all of this is solely my uneducated hypothesis based only on my reading of posts of others on DB, and the reading of some other sources, and that I have no scientific backing for it. There were also some discussions on DB, where others did not agree with it. I am still persuaded that some (when not many) of lung squeezes actually do not happen in depth due to a negative pressure, but rather due to the packing, either at the moment of the immersion, or in the final phase of the ascent.
That told, I apologize for the lengthy off-topic post in this thread, but since the question was raised, I felt obliged replying in as much details as I could - hopefully helping someone avoiding an injury.
Previously I expressed also another suspicion (though absolutely not supported by any research) that some cases of lung squeeze may surprisingly actually happen during the final stage of the ascent. Imagine a freediver who strongly packs on the surface - the overpressure serves to stuff his/her lungs with some extra air to be used for equalizing, and to allow descending to a greater depth before reaching the negative pressure (hence actually preventing lung squeeze). I see no reason why it should not work for this very purpose. On my mind the risk it much greater at the very beginning of the dive, when the lungs are under the full pressure (higher than the environment) - a sudden move during the duck dive, or the first strong kicks may induce an injury.
When descending just few meters, the risk should be eliminated, because the pressures are now in equilibrium. Now what happens during the dive: both due to the the depth, and due to the increasing diving response, the progressing vasoconstriction moves blood into the veins and capillaries in the lungs, reducing so their inner volume and preventing so the negative pressure in the lungs and avoiding barotrauma in the depth (Blood Shift). So far so good.
Now you start ascending, the environment pressure decreases, and the lungs expand. You'd think you are now safe from the barotrauma, but on my mind the worst moment only comes as you approach the surface - the pressure inside the lungs starts to raise over the level of the environment, not only because of the initial packing, but the overpressure is amplified by the still progressing vasoconstriction, and reduced lung volume. So actually you finish with even higher pressure in the lungs than you started when fully packed. And of course, adding the fact that the blood pressure is much higher at the end of a breath-hold, and that there may be quite strong contractions in this phase of the dive, on my mind it increases the risk of a barotrauma (lung squeeze) very seriously. And especially at those divers who use a nose-clip or closing their epiglottis, or the soft palate+mouth on the ascent - which does not allow the overpressure to leave by the nose or mouth.
The earlier mentioned loss of elasticity of the alveoli tissue due to frequent extreme packing may be another factor that may increase the risk of a barotrauma during the ascent - if the alveoli walls collapse due to the lost elasticity, instead of shrinking, touching so each other, I imagine it can happen that they stay collapsed (sticked together) either during the whole ascent, decreasing so again additionally the lung volume (and increasing the resulting overpressure), or at some point will explosively fill with the high-pressured air from the non-collapsed parts, potentially damaging them.
I repeat that all of this is solely my uneducated hypothesis based only on my reading of posts of others on DB, and the reading of some other sources, and that I have no scientific backing for it. There were also some discussions on DB, where others did not agree with it. I am still persuaded that some (when not many) of lung squeezes actually do not happen in depth due to a negative pressure, but rather due to the packing, either at the moment of the immersion, or in the final phase of the ascent.
That told, I apologize for the lengthy off-topic post in this thread, but since the question was raised, I felt obliged replying in as much details as I could - hopefully helping someone avoiding an injury.
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I just can's grasp how someone can decent to great depth's on a FRC dive, ok I'm clear about equalizations and squeeze -- moutfill properly done, and bloodshift working... But I'm still confused how one have enough air to do that long swim on FRC dive?
There is (very roughly) around half of the usable oxygen stocked in the blood, and half of it in the lungs (if you train well empty lung breath-holds, you'll soon reach empty lung times around half of your full lung max). So from this point of view you should be able keeping at least half the time (or more, since FRC is not equal to completely empty lungs) when e-diving. But since the diving reflex kicks in much earlier and stronger in with an e-dive, the meatabolism switches into the anaerobic mode, and the average consumption goes far below the one at your full lungs dives, you may be able to keep the same time in this way too. Better told, if you are properly trained, you may keep even longer. Unfortunately, for myself it is still just the theory too - I still did not dedicate my training to the FRC methodology, but am definitely very much interested about it. However the performances of Sebastian Murat, Eric Fattah, or others using this method clearly show it is not just a theory.
For those interested in FRC vs. packing comparisons, I can give you my own stats (for monofin dives):
Best recreational dive w/packing: 51m 2'08"
Best recreational dive FRC: 45m 2'20"
Longest recreational dive w/packing: 12m 5'12"
Longest recreational dive FRC: 12m 4'06"
Longest 20m semi-active recreational dive w/packing: 3'54"
Longest 20m semi-active recreational dive FRC: 3'26"
Deepest FRC dive w/5mm suit: 57m
Deepest packing dive w/5mm suit: 72m
Deepest full-exhale negative pressure dive during the days of 'packing' dives: 15m (limited by chest discomfort)
Deepest full exhale negative pressure dive after training FRC: 30.5m (limited by chest discomfort)
Best recreational dive w/packing: 51m 2'08"
Best recreational dive FRC: 45m 2'20"
Longest recreational dive w/packing: 12m 5'12"
Longest recreational dive FRC: 12m 4'06"
Longest 20m semi-active recreational dive w/packing: 3'54"
Longest 20m semi-active recreational dive FRC: 3'26"
Deepest FRC dive w/5mm suit: 57m
Deepest packing dive w/5mm suit: 72m
Deepest full-exhale negative pressure dive during the days of 'packing' dives: 15m (limited by chest discomfort)
Deepest full exhale negative pressure dive after training FRC: 30.5m (limited by chest discomfort)
I am vary interested in all new and innovative things. I am now, in pool disciplines, around 7min static and 200m dyn, all done with wormup, and big ones too, everyone laughs to me becouse I'm doing almost entire training before final attempt, even in competitions 
From next year I'll try to focus on first attempt max performance, both in static and dynamic. I know it will be hard at the beginning, especially for static, but I see some crazy times and lengths done in that way so I'll definitely try.
As for depth disciplines, I am not that sure about FRC, but I'm gonna consider that option, for sure. Sounds wherry interesting and make a lot of sense. I just think i need bit more experience id deep diving before that.
From next year I'll try to focus on first attempt max performance, both in static and dynamic. I know it will be hard at the beginning, especially for static, but I see some crazy times and lengths done in that way so I'll definitely try. As for depth disciplines, I am not that sure about FRC, but I'm gonna consider that option, for sure. Sounds wherry interesting and make a lot of sense. I just think i need bit more experience id deep diving before that.
Yes, but that was not in a 5mm suit, it was in an Orca triathlon suit (in which I did 88m).
I was comparing max depths in 5mm wetsuits.
Eric, what kind of dive was that? FRC or packing dive?
And would it be a problem if I ask you to put max FRC\packing depths no mether of suit or competition... Just max for various disciplines?
Thank you.
Not to abrubty distord this very intresting discussion, but has anyone an Idea what Tom Sietas is up to?
After Stig's and Dave Mullins impressive efforts, and not to forget the 10' of Stefan Mifsud I'm very intrested in what our very talented and hard working friend is up to!
Personally I've heard he has done the 200 without fins in training. On top of that I'm sure many remember the photo showing tom with a new Static PB of 10'05".
Perhabs he is secretly training with a monofin? LOL
What is Tom up to!?
Love, courage and water!
Kars
After Stig's and Dave Mullins impressive efforts, and not to forget the 10' of Stefan Mifsud I'm very intrested in what our very talented and hard working friend is up to!
Personally I've heard he has done the 200 without fins in training. On top of that I'm sure many remember the photo showing tom with a new Static PB of 10'05".
Perhabs he is secretly training with a monofin? LOL
What is Tom up to!?
Love, courage and water!
Kars
Perhabs he is secretly training with a monofin? LOL
Kars
LOOOL rofl
I am vary interested what will Tom do with a monofin, but I somehow think bifins suits him bather... I sure hope that we will se Tom's answer to all this.
Personally, I've heard Tom did 225m DNF and +250m DYF in training, but it may be just rumors. However, he seems to be doing much better performances in training than in official attempts anyway - I've read an interview with him, where he told that for doing a ~10min official statics attempt he needs to be able doing 11 min reliably in training first. That interview was couple of years old, but anyway it shows that his physical barrier is far beyond his psychical limits.
Goran,
For several years I haven't had a chance to do any 'max' attempts under no-suit diving conditions (which is my best situation). However, based on recreational performances and 5mm suit performances, I can extrapolate what my theoretical 'maxes' would be. According to my calculations, the best I could do FRC (no-suit) CW+monofin would be about 80-90m, and for packing would be about 100-104m. The new 2nd generation angled monofins make a huge difference, and I have never had a chance to try a max dive with them (either packing or FRC). Interestingly, I find that my 'max' depth capacity is approximately equal to two times my maximum 'solo' diving safe recreational depth. Using this formula, FRC 45m x 2 = 90m, and for packing, 51.5m x 2 = 103m. However, those recreational dives were still done with classical monofins. The other factor is equalizing. For packing dives equalizing is very easy for me, but for FRC, my air equalizing limit is around 80-90m (hypothetically), so there is also a chance I would be limited by equalizing unless I used a water equalizing method.
Anyway, I think that a well trained FRC diver could come close to the current world records in CW and CNF, but not quite break them. Perhaps the science of FRC diving/training will advance in the next few years, and possibly at some point it will be feasible to break the records with an FRC dive... but not quite yet. I would also comment that doing packing dives makes you better at doing packing dives (and worse at doing FRC dives), and doing FRC dives makes you better at FRC dives (and worse at packing dives).
Yes, I admit that couple of the later posts were completely off-topic here in this thread, but since I found the discussion very interesting too, I did not resist participating in it. In fact, I agree that this kind of information would be much beter placed in another thread, subforum, or a category, but unfortunately an appropriate sub-forum is still missing on DB. Maybe now, when you are a moderator, Sanso, you could help tp create a new category for physiologic discussions here on DB. In fact, I'd very much welcome a whole new section (perhaps under General Freediving) that would be dedicated to science, with several sub-forums for physilogy, biology, physics, atronomics/cosmology, computer science, etc - in past there were so many interesting topics here on DB concerning these topics, but they got very quickly lost in the general freediving or beach bar sections under the daily load of "chit-chat" (Jorg's expression) type of posts who are fun, but have no informative value.