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Vote to Ban Spearfishing in Wisconsin

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
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Whopperhead

Wisconsin Speargun Hunter
Mar 2, 2007
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EVERYONE> There is a proposal to BAN PANFISH SPEARING in wisconsin to be voted on at the spring conservation congress hearings on April 9th. (Question 76) It is imperitive that we all get together to keep this from happening. I urge all of you to attend your counties hearing and speak out in favor of kkeping panfish spearing legal in Wisconsin. Also, be sure to pass this along to other spearos in the state! WE CANT LET THIS GO THROUGH!
 
WTF????

I thought the state was moving in the opposite direction these days and I was almost hoping they were going to open up more species for us to shoot.
So now they're going to stick us with a shitty mine that's going pollute the northern part of the state AND take away our spearfishing rights?!:yack

Where did you find this out?

Jon
 
I found it here:

http://dnr.wi.gov/org/nrboard/congress/spring_hearings/2012/2012 Spring Questionnaire FINAL40pg.pdf


QUESTION 76. Prohibit the Spearing of Panfish by Divers (# 500211)
Presently, skin and scuba divers can spear panfish in the State of Wisconsin waters. Panfish daily bag limits have been reduced on 40 individual water bodies statewide and in St. Croix County over the past several years to protect panfish species. There are some who feel that it is relatively easy to spear panfish while diving and their ability to remove the largest of each panfish species has had a negative effect on panfish populations and size structure.

76. Do you support modifying the fishing regulations to include “panfish” as a fish that cannot be taken by spearing in all Wisconsin waters?

76. YES _____ NO ______
 
The DNR Spring meeting locations:

http://dnr.wi.gov/org/nrboard/congress/spring_hearings/2012/2012 locations.pdf

Should consider going to the one in your county or close to it. If you do go, don't say anything stupid, be prepared with facts. Find out the reason behind the Question 76. Where did it come from? what prompted it, was it simply someone submitting it and it gets entered. Keep in mind 99% of hook and line fisherman don't understand what we do. They thing we jump in the water and just blast every fish in sight. Remind them of how many fisherman LIMIT OUT and how many times a year they do that. Hook and Line Fisherman will take home more fish than a spearo......... Every Year. I think I get about 40-50 fish a year. Thats on a GOOD year. Otherwise I average 20-30. I'm not sure how many the average hook and line guy brings in. But I was talking to a guy this last weekend that he and his father-inlaw and bro-inlaw all went ice fishing the weekend before and had all 3 limited out on bluegills, 2 days in a row. That's 25 fish x 3 (guys) x 2 Days = 150 bluegills in 2 days. If hook and line guys say they have issues with how many fish we take, then maybe the FISHING Regs should be changed to lower the limit and that includes the hook and line guys too. There is no need to BAN the spearing of Panfish. The number of hook and line to Spearo ratio is like 200 to 1. (this is a complete guess)
 
Well My guess for the motivation of putting up the question at all is the fanatic green movements, who have seemingly unlimited funds to lobby, I mean bribe the politicians. The money is supporting the UN Agenda 21 project, where people eventually will be banned from nature and confined into a few compact, overcrowded cities. As I said to the guy who now is selling his gear; "it will be made illegal, unpractical and taboo" to selectively catch your own food.
I don't know who's going to decide, but you could start a campaign with a cool youtube video, where you show people you're just like every other nature lover and hunter, enjoying a healthy and very challenging activity and sometimes some real food, food you share with family and neighbors. You don't have waste - 'by catch', you don't loose fish lines, and your total catch is very modest. Show families living in harmony with nature and neighbors, and let them speak about the quality of character you spearfishermen have, and the things you consider for hunting (season, size etc.). Write out a 1 or 2 page article explaining what spearfishing is, how difficult it is, how environment friendly it is, and how long of a human tradition it is.

If you will we can work on these media pr projects here, I love to help, and I'm sure it will help others world wide, since Agenda 21 is a global UN program.

Oh btw it's useful to get to know / understand the people voting over this a bit, understand their motivation, fears, interest, so you can answer these shady feelings with clear knowledge and compassion. Sympathy is what we need my friend.

Love, Courage and Water!

Kars
 
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Not the "greens" on this one. Every time I meet a person in halfway decent shape they ask about what I do and seem to appreciate everything we go through to spear in Wisconsin. It's the fat-ass slobs that sit in their boat drinking shitty beer that are always the loudest to complain.

Sometimes they follow me along in their boats far closer than the 100' state law says that they're required to give me. Once in a while I even take a picture of their boat registration numbers so my widow knows who to sue. ;) After following me around they start to bitch about how I'm cheating and scaring away all of "their" fish and I need to get off of "their" spots. It's one of the reasons I like to spear late in the season, after the first snow, because they are all too damn lazy to be out. The guys that do go out in those conditions usually have my mutual respect.

Ted (unirdna) and I had a guy threaten to call the cops on us because we were "garbage fishing" and he thought it was "his" lake. If anyone ones to go screw with someone up on Pearl Lake (near Red Granite) I can point his house out to you. In then end it was too late in the day to have the police show up, as I would have loved to have them straighten him out.

In all honesty, I have enough trouble with these guys even when I'm out teaching scuba classes. Take away my students and give me a speargun and they just can't contain themselves.

I know we've all posted videos on you-tube of our fishing exploits, and I'm now wondering if this has played into the sudden interest. I guess my videos are more like highlight reels and don't accurately show how many times we go out and get skunked- but, who would want to watch a video of that? In the end, I think it gives them the wrong idea of what it's really like.

We also have a long history of bad blood in the northern part of the state as it relates to Native American spearfishing rights granted through treaties. There were some tense moments at the boat landings 20 years ago and people haven't forgotten about that yet.

I may sound pessimistic, but there are over 1.4 million fisherman in Wisconsin (plus 300,000 non resident fishermen) and less than 50 spear-fisherman in the whole state. I don't exactly see the odds stacked in our favor. It doesn't matter what reality is (I even know of a couple of DNR wardens who spearfish) if the perception out there is that we are taking all of the biggest fish (according to them) and the hook and line guys can't compete, then there's nothing that a few of us are going to do to change their minds. :head

I'd be willing to speak, but I don't hold out much hope on this specific issue after looking at how they framed the question.

Jon
 
Well isn't it just sad that the state is used to grand the rich and powerful MONOPOLIES?

What happened to your recognized rights?

Are Americans so envious that like animals they eat themselves sick to prevent a hungry fellow men to eat?

When this barbarism start to shine and break through so painfully, you must be in a pivotal crises moment, where the people loose their cool and show their ugliest sides.

BTW I have little doubt that the fish ban will stop at this proposal. It's just the beginning, and they always start at the easiest targets first.

Can't you become a Native American and enjoy some of their privileges?
 
I notice that the bill doesn't include the exact bag limit and only includes the "feelings" of the anti-spearfishing element. It also doesn't include any scientific support either way. Best of luck to you on this one.

The money is supporting the UN Agenda 21 project, where people eventually will be banned from nature and confined into a few compact, overcrowded cities.
I've heard of that before. As much as it sounds like something from a movie, I can see how things are moving in that direction.
 
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Hey all - Just found out about the proposed rule changes a few days ago and I'm downright sick about it. I won't be able to attend the meetings, but I agree that everyone who can should attend the meeting, and utilize the 3 minutes we're alloted to make a case for our sport. We all know the proposed measure is ridiculous beyond measure, but they don't. Anyway, it boils down to Speech 101. I have friends serving as members on the WCC, so I'll be interacting with them in the next few days. I'm also drafting a short speech for my brother to read at the hearings on April 9th, laying out a foundation for why spearfishing for panfish is NOT detrimental, and if people think the panfish population is in dire straights, then why not just lower the bag limit for everyone?

Anyways, regardless, if you're not a public speaker and want to use my document as a template to read from, feel free to ask. I know we're few, and the likelihood of swaying minds is poor, but I'll give it my best shot.

I'd also encourage you to send emails to your local WCC representatives to make your voice heard, and take as many people as you can find and go vote on the issue. A list of members can be found here:

http://dnr.wi.gov/org/nrboard/congress/members/local/2011Delegate_Roster.pdf

best,

Thaddeus

i'll post the speech up in a couple of days. feel free to change whatever you want to, it's just a template.
 
Re: talking point

hey guys I'm about to cry :waterwork over this news. A good talking point for those who go to the meeting could be the fact that unlike line fisherman we help with lake quality a little by taking carp whenever we come across them unlike hook and line who rarely ever go out of their way to remove these fish.
 
I was talking to a relative who works for the DNR last week about this issue. They seemed to think we were pretty well screwed. I guess when this particular group of people makes up their mind on a topic no amount of data or reasoning will get them to change it. They also seem to yield quite a bit of power over the DNR so things don't look to promising.

I guess we have nothing to loose by showing up and expressing our opinions, but don't go in expecting to change many outcomes. I still wonder if this has come about as a result of YouTube videos that make things look much easier than it really is?

Jon
 
I was talking to a relative who works for the DNR last week about this issue. They seemed to think we were pretty well screwed. I guess when this particular group of people makes up their mind on a topic no amount of data or reasoning will get them to change it. They also seem to yield quite a bit of power over the DNR so things don't look to promising.

I guess we have nothing to loose by showing up and expressing our opinions, but don't go in expecting to change many outcomes. I still wonder if this has come about as a result of YouTube videos that make things look much easier than it really is?

Jon

The reality is that question 76 is part of a set of advisory questions, and will not begin a ban on panfishing for this year.

That being said, we are in trouble and need to act fast. I don't think that any amount of lobbying at the individual county meetings will have an impact on hook and line fisherman's opinions. The data that WDNR will receive on April 9th will be overwhelmingly in favor of banning spearing panfish.

Our real objective is to accurately portray the number of freedivers/spearos in Wisconsin as well as our average outing bags to the WDNR. They will be much less likely to care to argue the point of spearing panfish once they know how few of us there are.

I propose that we create a members section of this forum, and get as many people as possible who spearfish in wisconsin to join it. We then need to create a survey, asking our "membership" how many "outings" they went on last year, and other things such as number of dives, fish taken, etc. This way, we now have a club, can represent ourselves as such, and can report to WDNR that our club, which to the best of our knowledge represents a large percentage of wisconsin spearfishermen, how many fish we are actually averaging per outing. In said letter, we also need to explain that half of the enjoyment that we get out of spearing is derived from the diving portion. I'm sure there are many other great points to be made, such as how difficult it actually is to take fish, stressing that taking 2 or 3 perch, or 5 bluegills once a week is a great week for any one of the 50-60 people actively spearing in wisconsin. And an even better day is taking a handful monster carp, which are an easier target and provide us with great enjoyment. Also, we need to scour the internet for records of any tickets given to a spearo for overbagging fish. Showing that none of us have ever been ticketed is another BIG point for us to make.

Currently, WDNR doesn't have any facts about spearing. We need to provide that. I believe that after being enlightened as to how minimal of an impact we actually have, that this issue will be dropped.

Opinions?
 
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Indeed have a club, do the research.

If it's not effective you'll have at least a nice list of dive buddies.
 
The WDNR may have the over-limit citation statistics that you're looking for. They often keep track of such things. It may also help if you contrast the number of spearfishermen versus the number of hook and line fishermen, as well as a comparison between the two groups in terms of the amount of fish that they take.

Since the complaint is that spearfishermen "may" take the biggest and best, you may also search for information on the "population and size structure" that Question 76 mentions and see what the DNR's own scientists say about the fish population and size structure. Their studies may include other factors, such as the impact of carp on the fishery, which you can use to your advantage.

There's nothing more irritating than a group of people who want to ban something just because they "feel" that something "may" be negatively affecting the environment. I see it all the time and it disgusts me.
 
The reality is that question 76 is part of a set of advisory questions, and will not begin a ban on panfishing for this year.

That being said, we are in trouble and need to act fast. I don't think that any amount of lobbying at the individual county meetings will have an impact on hook and line fisherman's opinions. The data that WDNR will receive on April 9th will be overwhelmingly in favor of banning spearing panfish.

Our real objective is to accurately portray the number of freedivers/spearos in Wisconsin as well as our average outing bags to the WDNR. They will be much less likely to care to argue the point of spearing panfish once they know how few of us there are.

I propose that we create a members section of this forum, and get as many people as possible who spearfish in wisconsin to join it. We then need to create a survey, asking our "membership" how many "outings" they went on last year, and other things such as number of dives, fish taken, etc. This way, we now have a club, can represent ourselves as such, and can report to WDNR that our club, which to the best of our knowledge represents a large percentage of wisconsin spearfishermen, how many fish we are actually averaging per outing. In said letter, we also need to explain that half of the enjoyment that we get out of spearing is derived from the diving portion. I'm sure there are many other great points to be made, such as how difficult it actually is to take fish, stressing that taking 2 or 3 perch, or 5 bluegills once a week is a great week for any one of the 50-60 people actively spearing in wisconsin. And an even better day is taking a handful monster carp, which are an easier target and provide us with great enjoyment. Also, we need to scour the internet for records of any tickets given to a spearo for overbagging fish. Showing that none of us have ever been ticketed is another BIG point for us to make.

Currently, WDNR doesn't have any facts about spearing. We need to provide that. I believe that after being enlightened as to how minimal of an impact we actually have, that this issue will be dropped.

Opinions?

Good points. We sort of have a Club/Organization: Wisconsin Speargun Hunters. Basically it's a GROUP of people that spearfish in Wisconsin. I've never heard of a Spearo being ticketed/fined for anything. I also think that 50-60 spearos in Wisconsin is stretching it. I can think of about 20 and I don't know everyone, So I'd say about 40 spearos in Wisconsin and I only know of 1 that has EVER limited out on panfish. If I get 10-12 on my stringer it's FULL. There is no more room and makes for a great meal for my whole family of 5.

I can Create a Thread and post different POLLS on there and those who wish to say they belong to Wisconsin Speargun Hunters.
 
Been happy to see all the chatter going back and forth about #76. I called up a friend who serves on the WCC to get a better feel for what we're looking at. He sat in on some talks a few weeks ago, and #76 was talked over - basically it was a group of HandL folks up near St Croix that saw a spearo with nice stringer of perch, and that sparked the whole thing. The rest is history.

According to this same individual, should 76 pass it will be at least 1-2 years minimum before the law takes affect. Governor Walker also introduced more legislation that will possibly bog down the DNR's implementation rate of new laws, and might add an extra year to the process. Regardless, he assured me that we will most likely have at least this year to spear as usual.

As promised, I've attached a sample speech for anyone to use at their WCC meeting. It's by no means a world-changing speech, but I hope it hits a number a points. Please, BY ALL MEANS, feel free to take from/add to as you will. This is what will be read at Richland County's meeting. Owing for the surge of adrenaline, the average person should be able to get it all out in around 3 minutes.

I would also be in favor of the above-mentioned need for data and the creation a solidified group. I think we should IMPLEMENT OUR OWN spear-fishing measures for future WCC meetings as a unified body of spearos. Without a unanimous voice, we'll continue to get run over.

*******************

SAMPLE SPEECH:

Good evening,
I would like to speak with you tonight concerning measure 76, which seeks to implement a statewide ban on all underwater panfish spearfishing. As a long-time spearfisherman, I would like to address some items that measure 76 fails to mention.
First, a few facts. The current underwater spearing regulations allow for skin and scuba divers to harvest panfish and rough fish, such as carp and gar. Also, as it currently stands, no game fish is considered legal quarry for spear fishing in the state of Wisconsin, yet we spearfisherman purchase and pay the same price for a fishing license as any other fisherman. Many other states give spearfisherman and hook and line fisherman equal rights, but in WI we’re limited to panfish and carp.
The concerned citizens who created measure 76 would like you to believe that SCUBA and freedivers are single-handedly depleting Wisconsin’s panfish populations. However, they fail to provide one shred of scientific or statistical evidence to back up their claims. If anecdotal evidence is to be used for the shaping of WI’s fishing regulations, consider the following: anecdotally, less than one-tenth of 1% of Wisconsin fisherman who bought fishing licenses last year actually participated in spearfishing. Even if every spearfisherman in the state managed to collect a limit of panfish on every outing, the amount of harvested fish is nigh-on insignificant compared to hook and line, and especially ice-fisherman.
Measure 76 is also worded to make people think it’s relatively easy to spear a pan fish underwater – this is simply untrue. It takes an enormous commitment in cost, gear, and physical aptitude to dive, and pan fish are not easy targets for spear guns and pole spears. Furthermore, spearfishing has been widely embraced by conversationalists world-wide because it is zero-bi-catch. Zero bi-catch simply means that what you catch is what you keep. How many unwanted fish are needlessly killed each year simply from the trauma of catch and release? With spearfishing, the only fish taken are the one’s harvested. There is no upgrading, there is no waste. When practiced within the limits established by the natural resources department, there is no negative impact on the fishing industry.
Should measure 76 pass, the few hundred spearfishermen in the state of Wisconsin will be left to pursue only rough fish, and nothing for the table. Needless to say, it will mean the end of our sport. If you are truly concerned about the decline of panfish numbers, we would ask that you consider the other measure in this year’s ballot that promotes decreasing the statewide bag limit for panfish, for everyone. This move would have a far more reaching affect than banning spearfishing, which has comparably little impact on population numbers.
Wisconsin’s spearfishermen are ardent conversationalists and proponents of sustainability. The majority of us do our best to create a cleaner and healthier water system by continually removing its invasive inhabitants, such as the carp, which can reak havoc on panfish beds during their spawn. Measure 76 is based on the emotional feelings of a few, disgruntled fisherman who clearly misunderstand our sport. We would ask that you vote on measure 76 in consideration of facts and reality, not emotion. Saying that spearfishing gives divers an unfair advantage over hook and line fisherman would be as ridiculous as saying that bow hunting gives deer hunters an unfair advantage over gun-hunters. I can wholehearedly assure you that the banishment of spearfishing will have zero effect on improving the size and numbers of panfish in Wisconsin waters.
We would be more than happy to answer any questions you might have about spearfishing, and share more information about our sport with you. Thank you for your time and consideration of this matter.
**************
REGARDS,
T
 
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Hi thudspud,

I took the liberty to touch up your speech.

In general I think it's a nice base, but it could use a bit more spice and reworking here and there. I hope you like it.

A general tip, consider the words you use, each of them have feelings attached. In a way you're helping the politician to formulate his excuse for voting against. Also I must say that politicians here have grown to see themselves as a separate class, elevated above the naive slaves. The deal with numbers and seek to keep the hurt moving, by rod and hook. When an obstacle appears, or when a group of sheep form one, the first ignore it waiting for the sheep to forget or get distracted and only when pressed they pay some lip service in order to get the hurt moving and grazing again, because when you're bleating you're not eating and productive.

Now let's get to your speech.

*******************

SAMPLE SPEECH:

Good evening my representatives,
I'm x and represent the interest of The National Wisconsin Freediving and spearfishing club. I would like to speak with you tonight concerning measure 76, which seeks to implement a statewide ban on all underwater panfish spearfishing. As a representative of and being a long-time spearfisherman myself, I would like to address some key items the proposed measure 76 fails to mention.
First, a few facts. -
The current underwater spearing regulations allow for skin and scuba divers to harvest panfish and rough fish, such as carp and gar. Also, as it currently stands, no game fish is considered legal quarry for spear fishing in the state of Wisconsin, yet we spearfishermen purchase and pay the same price for a fishing license as any other fisherman. Please consider that many other states give hook and line fisherman and spearfishermen equal rights. Wisconsin does not recognize fishermen equal rights, hence spearfishermen are limited to ONLY panfish and carp.

The citizens who drawn up measure 76 would like you to believe that SCUBA and freedivers are single-handedly depleting Wisconsin’s panfish populations. This fear is based on Nothing and you know it for sure when they fail to provide you with any shred of scientific, statistical or verifiable piece of evidence to back up their incredulous claims. If anecdotal evidence is to be used for the shaping of WI’s fishing regulations, you may just as well consider the following: Less than one-tenth of 1% of the in total xxx Wisconsin fisherman who bought fishing licenses last year actually went out spearfishing. Even if every spearfishermen in the whole state managed to collect the allowed limit of panfish on every outing, the amount of harvested fish is nigh-on insignificant in comparison to hook and line technique of fishing!
Measure 76 is also worded to steer people into believing it’s easy to spear a pan fish underwater – however as a experienced spearfisherman I can assure you this is simply untrue. It takes an enormous investment in learning, patience, gear, and physical aptitude to dive. The well camouflaged, shy, xxft deep and fast pan fish makes for a hard target. We spearfishermen are selective and well disciplined. We always check the fish size and type before catching. Our appreciation and care for nature is why spearfishing has been widely embraced by conversationalists world-wide as the most ecofriendly. Why? because we have zero bi-catch. No fish is thrown away. Zero bi-catch simply means that what you catch is what you keep. In contrast, how many unwanted fish are killed as bi-catch or simply from the trauma of 'catch and release' every year?
With the method of spearfishing, the only fish taken are the one’s harvested.
There is no upgrading, there is no waste. When practiced within sensible limits established by the natural resources department, spearfishing has NO no negative impact on the fishing industry.

Should measure 76 pass, our few hundred spearfishermen in the state of Wisconsin will be left to pursue only rough fish, and no fresh healthy fish for the family diner table. Needless to say, it will mean the end of our ecofriendly sportive underwater hunting tradition. If you are truly concerned about a decline of panfish numbers, we should work together, recognize all the facts and then consider the non discriminating measure in this year’s ballot that promotes decreasing the statewide bag limit for panfish, for all the fishermen. This move would have a far more reaching affect than banning the very small numbers of spearfishermen which in turn has a next to NO impact on panfish population numbers.
We Wisconsin’s spearfishermen are ardent conversationalists and proponents of sustainability. The majority of us do our best to create a cleaner and healthier water system by continually removing its invasive inhabitants, pests such as the carp, which often reak havoc on panfish eggbeds during their spawn. We think measure 76 is totally based on the emotional feelings of a few, who clearly misunderstand our most environment friendly way of fishing. We trust you to vote on measure 76 in consideration of facts and reality, not baseless emotion. Knowing the numbers, you know the method of spearfishing has no yield advantage over the hook and line Method. To me it sounds as ridiculous as saying that bow hunting gives deer hunters an unfair advantage over gun-hunters. The only advantage diver have is the spearfishing method is the most ecofriendly. In conclusion I can wholeheartedly assure you that any banishment of the spearfishing method will have zero effect on either the size nor on the number of panfish living in Wisconsin waters.
We of The National Wisconsin Freediving and spearfishing club would be more than happy to answer any questions you might have about spearfishing, and share more information about our sustainable tradition with you representative. Thank you for your time and consideration of this for us important matter.
**************
REGARDS,
T

hmm I see I changed a lot, and in the end I see some repetition as well as the 'afterthought' of anglers feeling disadvantaged. Maybe you can build and explain that a bit to the politician. Diversity is what they like to preach, why not have it in fishing? Well I hope it helps to work for you!

ps. others will call me crazy spending hours on helping a small minority in some place 1/2 way around the world. Well it's because you guys have also helped me, even with material support.:thankyou

Love, Courage and Water,

Kars
 
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Kars - interesting spin on my words. Unfortunately, we only get 3 min to speak, and we're not convincing politicians, but fellow outdoorsman.

I admire your spirit, though! Thanks for your support.
 
Ok, then you'll need a rewrite with shorted sentences, more clear, less redundant with less fashionable political words. Perhaps have paragraphs explaining separately, problem, what's spearfishing, numbers and ecology, true nature of the conflict, the win-win just way out.
 
If I may ask, how many hook and line fisherman posses licenses in Wisconsin? It would be useful to mention that number in addition to the tenth of a percent. It could add some much-needed perspective to the debate.
 
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