2014 lunocet

[noa]

Look what the postman brought me today! A genuine Lunocet Pro... This is one gorgeous piece of work-the machine work is impeccable, anodizing is attractive...it is real eye candy in person. If it swims half as good as it looks we are in for a treat! Flukes are significantly larger than the standard ones. Nice packing job, stainless hardware and Allen wrench included. Still fits easily in my bag, too. I will hopefully be trying it out in the morning. Can't wait! View attachment 38086 View attachment 38087 View attachment 38088 View attachment 38089 View attachment 38081 View attachment 38083 View attachment 38084

A thing of beauty ! Oooh, got that big anticipation burn...
Looking forward to your swim report. Enjoy !

 

[neurodoc]

I did first receive a tracking number, and got the fin when it was supposed to get here. Tracking numbers are overrated IMHO, as on 2-day shipping it takes a whole day for USPS to start posting shipping progress updates to their tracking numbers. In any case, it got here when Ted said it would which is what matters. I'm still looking forward to ApneaAddict's swim review, so I won't pre-empt it with my own but will post some basic impressions after trying it out. Without a doubt it is both the prettiest and most serious looking fin I've seen in person so far.

 

[Fondueset]

Hi Fondueset,
Which fin are you referring to as a "sprint fin"?
Surely you didn't mean the hyperfin, as the angle of a hyperfin is proven to make monofins more hydrodynamic by aligning the fin with the body as opposed to the foot. This is great for dynamic whether you use the kick-and-glide technique or constant undulation.
If it's the Lunocet you are referring to, sprinting was just one of many exercises that I tried out with it. Another pleasant thing was that it produced very little lactic burn in my core and leg muscles (again, just speaking personal experience here). I also used it for hypercapnic exercises (8 x 25 m laps with diminishing recovery times from one minute to one breath), and I think that this exercise was less difficult as a result of using the Lunocet in the way I described above.
When it came to hypoxic exercises (2 x 50 m, 2 x 65 m, 2 x 75 m, 2 x 85 or 100 m with 75 second recovery times between each) I couldn't get past 65 metres. It just took too long to cover distances. This was what I meant when I wrote that it wasn't great for dynamic, which is measured in a competitive setting in terms of distance.
And no I haven't checked out the "extreme dolphinism" thread yet, but I will. Thanks for bringing it to my attention

Hi Raffy, Revan is right - I wondered why you use a hard fin for dynamics. My understanding is that hard fins are good for sprinting and depth, but that they are less efficient energetically for distance/recreational diving. ( I normally use a star fins hyperfin with about a 28 degree blade angle - medium/soft stiffness. Prior to it I had several Tritons of varying stiffness and a Tropol - which is around 15-20 degrees and quite stiff.)
I'm currently also working with a couple of Revan's foil-based fins. One of the things that I'm still getting used to is that because of the way these fins work you don't get the same kind of feedback as with a hyperfin - so there is a tendency to overpower them.

 

[neurodoc]

First swim report: only had a short time between dropping kids off at school/track practice and me getting to work, but I did about a dozen laps with half of them underwater and half on the surface with a snorkel. The Pro is markedly more powerful than the standard Lunocet, yet did not have the "wall of resistance" of my Glide fin or Nemo fin. I was able to go farther/smoother than with the standard, I felt, but did not really take any measurements or times. Easily did 50 yards underwater on fourth lap, whereas normally I have to do more laps to warm up/relax before I can do that without any discomfort at all. I did manage to loosen up and do a good dolphin kick faster; normally it takes me a half hour to really get my back/core engaged and the Pro seemed to shorted this time. I felt it was perhaps because it's easier to feel the resistance than with the standard. Overall, big improvement! I did not have the time to try different adjustments, pin positions etc. so I feel with some setup time I can get it tuned to my particular body even better. Oh, and yes it's a lot of fun and a great workout!

 

[Chipswim]

Fondueset!

I've noticed you are a master of expressing swimming in words. Enjoy greatly when you write!

"FEEDBACK" jumped off the page.

I find myself searching for a life like feel from the flex pattern of a fin. Wonder if that is a similar thought? Beginning to think that may be quite variable between swimmers and uses.

Wondering if Raffy is a large powerful swimmer. Maybe he easily flexes a firm fin.....

 

[Chipswim]

Neurodoc!
Great news! What did you choose for your initial stiffness setting. Sounds like it was a good choice for you.

Just noticed you liked that it was easier to feel the resistance....... = better feedback?

 

[REVAN]

Fondueset!

I've noticed you are a master of expressing swimming in words. Enjoy greatly when you write!

"FEEDBACK" jumped off the page.

I find myself searching for a life like feel from the flex pattern of a fin. Wonder if that is a similar thought? ....

Feedback: Measured or sensed states of a system used to modify or control its results or effects, e.g., in a biochemical pathway or behavioral response.

I can't speak for the Lunocet, but my DOL-Fin's have almost no delay in the feedback, and the force sensed tends to be lower (when economizing energy). These two things combined create quite a different feel from the hyperfin (which to me feels heavy, but squishy by comparison). The difference in feel can lead people to want to overpower the foil, whereas backing off some would result in better economy.

 

[neurodoc]

The feedback from a Lunocet feels immediate, and definitely a lower force than from a hyperfin. I would agree on the heavy/squishy feel of a hyperfin in comparison. The feel of a Lunocet is much cleaner, and after getting my back/core in gear I can feel the fin working quite well-but it is a more subtle feeling than the huge force applied/feedback from a carbon Glide.At first I did find I had to back way off on the force I used, and the fin would actually respond better to a clean technique with less force (with original lunocet 2014 model). It is particularly noticeable after a limbering-up/loosening up period, as my spine and core tend toward stiff from years of road cycling. I probably would benefit greatly from yoga and need to do that! It is indeed very different than a hyperfin, in a good way.

 

[neurodoc]

Neurodoc!
Great news! What did you choose for your initial stiffness setting. Sounds like it was a good choice for you.

Just noticed you liked that it was easier to feel the resistance....... = better feedback?

I would say more feedback, which helped me to loosen up and engage my core sooner in the swim. It is an amazing fin. I'll post more about different stiffness settings later when I have more time to experiment.

 

[Raffy]

Hi Raffy, Revan is right - I wondered why you use a hard fin for dynamics. My understanding is that hard fins are good for sprinting and depth, but that they are less efficient energetically for distance/recreational diving. ( I normally use a star fins hyperfin with about a 28 degree blade angle - medium/soft stiffness. Prior to it I had several Tritons of varying stiffness and a Tropol - which is around 15-20 degrees and quite stiff.)
I'm currently also working with a couple of Revan's foil-based fins. One of the things that I'm still getting used to is that because of the way these fins work you don't get the same kind of feedback as with a hyperfin - so there is a tendency to overpower them.

Hi Revan, Foundueset and Chipswim,
Thanks for your comments. Fondueset, now I see why you are calling my extra-stiff hyperfin a "sprint fin." Clearly you've used many more fins than I have, and have more experience with them, so I can see why you would categorize it in that way. I bought it two years ago for constant weight and then I got used to wearing it for everything else. You are right that it's not the ideal fin for dynamic, though I rarely use it for sprinting. It's also slightly negatively buoyant, which isn't ideal for pool disciplines either. 4 kg also makes a difference when I turn and push off the wall, but it also works, coincidentally, with my training wetsuit. I use an Orca S4 with a 1.5 kg neckweight and an internal pocket (homemade) at the level of the sacrum for 1 kg. I think that one of the reasons why I get more distance from the 4 kg. monofin is because its weight offsets the thicker neoprene on the level of the legs. I can maintain a good even line from my fingertips through to the end of the fin this way. I do see its hindrances - turning and pushing off the wall is one of them - and one of the reasons why I am open to the idea of using a Lunocet is that I'm trying other things out to see what works better.
You are also right that that foil type fins take some getting used to and relearning, especially when one is conditioned to getting that "feedback" from traditional monofins. I think that the other people who tried my Lunocet remarked on the feeling of "kicking in the air." The tendency is, as you said, to overpower the fin, but this can be corrected with practice.
Chipswim, I'm not a big muscular guy, though I've got strong legs from cycling, which I do every day. Over these years I've developed something of a symbiosis with my ex-hard hyperfin and can work with its powerful snap. If you want to see it in action, here is a video from the first day I got to try it out it in open water:

 

[Fondueset]

Hi Revan, Foundueset and Chipswim,
Thanks for your comments. Fondueset, now I see why you are calling my extra-stiff hyperfin a "sprint fin." Clearly you've used many more fins than I have, and have more experience with them, so I can see why you would categorize it in that way. I bought it two years ago for constant weight and then I got used to wearing it for everything else. You are right that it's not the ideal fin for dynamic, though I rarely use it for sprinting. It's also slightly negatively buoyant, which isn't ideal for pool disciplines either. 4 kg also makes a difference when I turn and push off the wall, but it also works, coincidentally, with my training wetsuit. I use an Orca S4 with a 1.5 kg neckweight and an internal pocket (homemade) at the level of the sacrum for 1 kg. I think that one of the reasons why I get more distance from the 4 kg. monofin is because its weight offsets the thicker neoprene on the level of the legs. I can maintain a good even line from my fingertips through to the end of the fin this way. I do see its hindrances - turning and pushing off the wall is one of them - and one of the reasons why I am open to the idea of using a Lunocet is that I'm trying other things out to see what works better.
You are also right that that foil type fins take some getting used to and relearning, especially when one is conditioned to getting that "feedback" from traditional monofins. I think that the other people who tried my Lunocet remarked on the feeling of "kicking in the air." The tendency is, as you said, to overpower the fin, but this can be corrected with practice.
Chipswim, I'm not a big muscular guy, though I've got strong legs from cycling, which I do every day. Over these years I've developed something of a symbiosis with my ex-hard hyperfin and can work with its powerful snap. If you want to see it in action, here is a video from the first day I got to try it out it in open water:

The sacrum weight is an interesting idea. I've been working on flattening out my glide - as well. I noticed I tend to be a little sway backed in some videos I shot recently - though how much this actually effects glide at slow speeds I am not sure. Typically I have pretty good glide in terms of distance. I used to use my Tropol for everything - did my deepest dive with it. It is very heavy. It's made from some kind of strange moulded polymer. The blade sure has a lot of authority though. Fyi - I use an aqua sphere swim skin - it's .5 and 1.5 mm neoprene and contributes very little to buoyancy. (it was also pretty inexpensive ) Finswimmers seem to be pretty good at blasting off the wall - I personally just don't do it.

 

[Ted Ciamillo]

Another dolphin encounter with an energetic dolphin researcher Noel Kassewitz:

 

[Fondueset]

The resistance - aka 'squishy' of a hyperfin distributes force across time - that is the blade loads up with what you put into it - then unloads across time - parts of the blade store energy - while other parts generate immediate thrust. The foil based fins, as noted, are immediate and store less. They generate thrust pretty much instantly. But, particularly with a softer fin - there is a lot of nuance to swimming with a hyperfin. My star fin can propel me with very little effort. I can also swim with it using ankles only or, swimming very softly, hardly load the blade at all and just let it slide through the water. The only regime where my star fin is lacking is a hard core sprint - I can do 25m in 10 seconds or so, but it feels like I'm whipping the blade. Otherwise it feels good across a pretty good range of paces, frequencies and amplitudes. I would rate the foils as different but not better in terms of feel. If you are using a stiff mono fin the difference is apt to be more dramatic and I could see how it would be a relief not to have to load up a hard blade to get going - particularly in dynamic.

 

[Billfish]

Another dolphin encounter with an energetic dolphin researcher Noel Kassewitz:

Ted, has anyone had difficulty with placing an order online at the web site? Presently I can't complete the transaction after entering my information.

 

[Ted Ciamillo]

Ted, has anyone had difficulty with placing an order online at the web site? Presently I can't complete the transaction after entering my information.

Please give me a call at 770-364-7933.

Thanks,
Ted

 

[noa]

First swim report: only had a short time between dropping kids off at school/track practice and me getting to work, but I did about a dozen laps with half of them underwater and half on the surface with a snorkel. The Pro is markedly more powerful than the standard Lunocet, yet did not have the "wall of resistance" of my Glide fin or Nemo fin. I was able to go farther/smoother than with the standard, I felt, but did not really take any measurements or times. Easily did 50 yards underwater on fourth lap, whereas normally I have to do more laps to warm up/relax before I can do that without any discomfort at all. I did manage to loosen up and do a good dolphin kick faster; normally it takes me a half hour to really get my back/core engaged and the Pro seemed to shorted this time. I felt it was perhaps because it's easier to feel the resistance than with the standard. Overall, big improvement! I did not have the time to try different adjustments, pin positions etc. so I feel with some setup time I can get it tuned to my particular body even better. Oh, and yes it's a lot of fun and a great workout!

I'm very much liking your first impressions. Even more so knowing my fin is traveling over to Greece right now.
Looking forward to hearing more from you. Until I can finally start using my own of course...

 

[divebike]

Why don't the dol fin or lunocet offer an option to connect via the clipless pedal system, it seems it would be easier to connect to . And im surprised by both of these producers patenting there products with the costs involved,

 

[divebike]

The lunocet pro looks the shit, why didn't ted do a 3d scan of a tuna tail, and then start injection moulding, a lot easier coming by a tuna tail then a dolphin tail, build a few different size tails to figure out which thrust to drag worked out best for most people ? im not in the manufacturing business yet so I could be way off base. Is the flex of the dol fin adjustable ?

 

[marginatus]

The lunocet pro looks the shit, why didn't ted do a 3d scan of a tuna tail, and then start injection moulding, a lot easier coming by a tuna tail then a dolphin tail, build a few different size tails to figure out which thrust to drag worked out best for most people ? im not in the manufacturing business yet so I could be way off base. Is the flex of the dol fin adjustable ?

So we don't need to swim side ways

 

[marginatus]

Why don't the dol fin or lunocet offer an option to connect via the clipless pedal system, it seems it would be easier to connect to . And im surprised by both of these producers patenting there products with the costs involved,

My guess: Another part to add unnecessary complexity/weight/cost and reduce the efficiency of the power transfer... but I'm sure one can mount some pedals on the footplates...