2015 LUNOCET PRO

[finSailor]

First of all, thank you all for comments, I hope to contribute back to the community here.

Okay, some more info regarding "autopsy". I disassembled and assembled my unit entirely, filmed it also entirely but let's jump to the only finding I think might matter. I'll publish a timelapse of full process or something just for fun, but later on..

Bushings are ok. But those two plastic pieces between axles are not identical. From thinner end another is 7,5mm thick, while another partly 7mm and having most of the surface 6,5mm. I can clearly see that cutter/tool used in workshop has had 2 different depth settings, another 0,5mm deeper, but leaving the area partly 'drilled'..

Approx. 1 mm sounds small, but it's clearly visible in video too, and I have my doubts that it's the reason for looseness. I am really sorry about my video's low and boring pace while I take measures etc, but hadn't time to make it more Hollywood. While analysing the movement of the fin, those two pieces are the only ones seemingly loose. I can easily move them sideways now when fin is again assembled.

@Ted Ciamillo , why not increasing thickness of that part by 3-4mm more, it would eliminate side movement entirely? Or is there a design issue that is not so obvious? Just asking..

Measuring plastic pieces:



Regarding side-to-side movement, please tell me is this normal comparing to your Lunos? "Deadzone" still the same, no news regarding that..



Regarding my technique - I'll provide viseo as soon as I get my hands on a waterproof camera. I've been told that there might be one coming from Santa this year I'd love to get your feedback.

 

[Chipswim]

FinnSailor!

You do a nice job of documenting with your videos! I'm looking forward to your water shots. That last dry test video is interesting. I don't know if it's normal or nuts the ways it can move? Maybe some of the '15 owners can say. If I were guessing I wouldn't think it should be able to rock like that but I do not know that for certain.

There is No possibility my '14 could rock like that. Maybe it doesn't matter and it's normal with the extra vertebrae? On the other hand this one Luno of FinSailor's seems to be the only problem child. So far the rest seem to be on the straight and narrow..... Correct? Anyone else struggling to get going properly?

Had a chance to talk to Ted today. He is thinking about FS' Luno. It's difficulties not normal. The source of that issue is not yet clear to him either. Don't think he'd seen your latest post from today with those videos yet though.

Ted says feedback direct to him in addition to deeper blue has been quite encouraging thus far. You guys are helping some nice things happen at the company level. He is grateful for Luno swimmers. Still striving to catch up with orders.

 

[Sarcomere]

Mine does the same thing. I haven't swam with it yet but I can twist it by hand, exactly like the video.

 

[Sarcomere]

 

[Philip Fennell]

...There is No possibility my '14 could rock like that. Maybe it doesn't matter and it's normal with the extra vertebrae?...

I'd have imagined that with the extra joint (vertebrae) you'd have some movement in the system that'd allow for the twist (roll) but it would be the side-to-side play (yaw), that we saw in the first videos, that would be of more interest. If you have that then the twist would be more pronounced. Does that sound plausible?

 

[finSailor]

Just came home from my 4th workout with Luno, disappointed. This time it felt even more off-balanced, and I struggled to keep the speed above stalling speed. It is really flexible (still with 1 pin only), so maybe it has now 'broken-in' ?! Sure it can be also that my technique is not good enough for fully flexible fin. However, you can feel the difference already when standing in the pool before dive, it does not give side-support that much like it did.

So, the obvious thing would be to add 1 pin, maybe it feels great again and would be stiffer in other ways too?
However, I'm considering to add some washers between spring and those plastic pieces of 'vertebrae" to eliminate extra clap I noticed there. Maybe it eliminates also 'yaw' and I should try it at least once more before adding extra pin. Anyone used any lubrication in their Luno? Just thinking that it might be necessary to minimise friction between washers and spring.

But before anything, I'll take 3-4 days break. Maybe it helps to eliminate potential psychological factor in this test ?!

 

[Chipswim]

Wow! More nice video! Thank you Sarcomere! Apparently this new form of dexterity or movement of the flukes is an unexpected (by me anyway) feature of the 2015 Lunocet. It does look life-like in movement....

Just when I was thinking it is great to see more of these fins surfacing in people's homes...BUT..... Let's see more submerged and actually being used!

POOF!!

A suggested video on u tube popped up behind Sarcomere's!!!! It is six minutes of great stuff.... Probably AA swimming himself or a male friend and also more of his female demonstrator from the earlier videos. Looks like the same pool.

The Luno looks like it's doing beautifully in DYN mode which is it's intended purpose. Lots to look at there from multiple speeds and angles. It does NOT appear that the Luno is going out of its proper movement patterns with either swimmer. The girl even swims a faster pass you can contemplate. Maybe he would post it here in case it doesn't automatically appear for others. I suppose a search for 2015 Lunocet on u tube would show it too.

I find that video to be the best assurance so far that things are really getting where we need them to be.

 

[Chipswim]

Just came home from my 4th workout with Luno, disappointed. This time it felt even more off-balanced, and I struggled to keep the speed above stalling speed. It is really flexible (still with 1 pin only), so maybe it has now 'broken-in' ?! Sure it can be also that my technique is not good enough for fully flexible fin. However, you can feel the difference already when standing in the pool before dive, it does not give side-support that much like it did.

So, the obvious thing would be to add 1 pin, maybe it feels great again and would be stiffer in other ways too?
However, I'm considering to add some washers between spring and those plastic pieces of 'vertebrae" to eliminate extra clap I noticed there. Maybe it eliminates also 'yaw' and I should try it at least once more before adding extra pin. Anyone used any lubrication in their Luno? Just thinking that it might be necessary to minimise friction between washers and spring.

But before anything, I'll take 3-4 days break. Maybe it helps to eliminate potential psychological factor in this test ?!

FinSailor!

I've had a few trips to the pool like that. Don't tolerate them well. Today though was fantastic as usual.

I like your intention to experiment to stiffen the Luno and to make the links behave as you wish them to. Lube is ok too. I use a spray dry lube infrequently if I hear something. Doc uses an automobile detailing spray called armor all. I'm not one to treat them like works of art that can't be messed with for fear of ruining them....(except when I hang it on the wall in the house)

If you can.. Take the psychological upper hand..... do it today and get back in the pool in the morning. Three days from now you will be it's master and you may be swimming the best one in the world... We've seen glimpses of your shop and tools.... Much more advanced than mine. Measure with your micrometer. Mark with a grease Pencil. Cut with an Axe! Strike fear in the thing's heart! Make it behave.. Trust your inspiration: Stick it! Drill it! Shim it! Lube it! Wrench it! Till it responds to your will! You are the doc. It is your patient. It's designed to work at or near perfection. Accept nothing less.

 

[Ichthys]

Mark with a grease Pencil. Cut with an Axe! Strike fear in the thing's heart! Make it behave.. Trust your inspiration: Stick it! Drill it! Shim it! Lube it! Wrench it! Till it responds to your will! You are the doc. It is your patient. It's designed to work at or near perfection. Accept nothing less.

LOL! I can just picture Ted scrambling for the phone to call Chip upon reading this!

 

[cdavis]

FinSailor, Best of luck with getting all this stuff straightened out. Your videos are a great tool.

If I understand it correctly, you are coming out of a bifin background with minimal mono experience. That is just like me. If/when you get to the point where you are comfortable with the Luno and it's performing as you think it should, I'd be very very interested in a comparison of how the fin feels/moves/performs relative to bifins. Which do you think is superior in a overall sense for the kind of diving you do.


By way of background, I've tried several, more normal monos. looking for something that was overall better than bifins. Normal monos just did not make the cut, but the Dol-fin did. Since the Luno shares many of the Dol-fin characteristics, I'd love to know how another bifiner views the Luno.

Connor

 

[Chipswim]

[/QUOTE] However, you can feel the difference already when standing in the pool before dive, it does not give side-support that much like it did.
[/QUOTE]

FS! Just reread you earlier message. This part about standing in the Luno caught my attention.

I've had a sense that standing on one is OK, BUT I've felt diving forward from a standing position would really hyper bend everything.... Much more.... 90° more even than pushing off walls which I do regularly. I fear losing my set up by standing then diving so I don't do that. I rest on the deep end hanging from the ledge and rest on my knees on the shallow end.

Maybe I'm reading too literally trying to figure this out but if you did dive from a standing position the resulting overflex could explain the situation? I think something would be likely to loosen permanently! .... Just searching for what may explain the difference?

Ichthys! It IS a little funny when I get after my fin with power tools.... Unless you happen to be Ted of course, but I think he knows by now my fin torture sessions are ultimately benevolent acts.

My 2014 Pro is my third Luno, each better than the last and they get swam nearly every day in an attempt to keep myself out of therapy. The first Luno replaced my favorite biffins which were in taters after years and a couple thousand miles in the pool. I swim poorly with no fins maybe due to multiple broken ankles.

My Luno HAS to answer the bell every morning! It's led to a lot of fun! I'm looking forward to my 2015 with great anticipation.

 

[Philip Fennell]

...Maybe I'm reading too literally trying to figure this out but if you did dive from a standing position the resulting overflex could explain the situation? I think something would be likely to loosen permanently! .... Just searching for what may explain the difference?...

@Chipswim I think this is a very good observation, if the spring has been over-flexed then a distortion of the holes in the spring, or a weakening of the spring itself, would quite possibly lead to the observed dead spot behaviour and that weakening of the spring would allow other, unwanted, flexing to occur.

@finSailor I know it's difficult when you don't know the starting point but can you recall what you saw of the spring when you disassembled the fin, were the holes at all distorted?

Philip

 

[finSailor]

FinSailor!
If you can.. Take the psychological upper hand..... do it today and get back in the pool in the morning. Three days from now you will be it's master and you may be swimming the best one in the world... We've seen glimpses of your shop and tools.... Much more advanced than mine. Measure with your micrometer. Mark with a grease Pencil. Cut with an Axe! Strike fear in the thing's heart! Make it behave.. Trust your inspiration: Stick it! Drill it! Shim it! Lube it! Wrench it! Till it responds to your will! You are the doc. It is your patient. It's designed to work at or near perfection. Accept nothing less.

Man, you are a great motivator and supporter!

 

[finSailor]

Regarding "standing" (as @Chipswim & @Philip Fennell pointed out), let me clarify a bit. When I said "standing", I meant really just standing in shallow end of the pool, the fin in resting position, NO flex/tension/whatever to spring, most weight on shoes/heels. While standing , time to time you tilt sideways (that heavy lady in the next lane causing waves) and flukes touch the floor. No force, just gravity affecting you and when tilting, flukes gave you some support. Previously it was so stiff so that you could correct your tilting with the help of flukes, but now they do not give you that support and you had to use wall to straighten you up. Sorry my english, it is a bit hard to explain with my limited vocabulary.

What comes to my style when taking a dive: I use same the technique I've used during my good old swimmer-days; I make a small "hop/jump", bend my knees, raise the fin against the wall, let gravity take me down to a position where I'm mostly submerged, stop breathing , a little help with hands to adjust the position and finally use my legs to push myself gently from the wall to the diving position. Still no excessive flex/bend/tension to the fin. I'm very sure that this is not stressing the fin over it's purpose. Argh, I need that waterproof video camera..

And @Philip Fennell, I inspected the spring holes, and they are just perfect, no signs of any wear&tear, only some excess rubber from the mold I guess.

As a sidenote - if a Luno is indeed "very durable", I do not see how 4-5km could make the spring "weakened" beyond standard already. I observed the deadzone already after approx. 1km, so I'd say it must be something else.

Currently I'm thinking that before the spring was "broken-in", it was so stiff that small gaps/unevenness in plastic parts didn't matter. Now when it's "broken-in", those gaps causing mechanical "play" starts to show and I'm experiencing unintended looseness, which result "yaw" and more rocking than intended, which results sensitivity to my technique errors.

I'm more than happy to work my way through this by learning it by diving, actually that was my strength back in old days . However, I'm sensitive to the thought that the fin is not working as it should. Once I'm convinced that everything is okay, I promise to shut up and go diving that extra hour per day or so.

 

[Chipswim]

Hmmmmmm....... While swimming this morning I will go over all this with my weird, lonely, imaginary friend who is great at getting to the heart of such problems..... By isolating the most unusual clue....

He wonders if you could get for him..... an introduction to.... Or (after Christmas) an underwater video of the lady making waves in the next lane?

 

[divebike]

Regarding "standing" (as @Chipswim & @Philip Fennell pointed out), let me clarify a bit. When I said "standing", I meant really just standing in shallow end of the pool, the fin in resting position, NO flex/tension/whatever to spring, most weight on shoes/heels. While standing , time to time you tilt sideways (that heavy lady in the next lane causing waves) and flukes touch the floor. No force, just gravity affecting you and when tilting, flukes gave you some support. Previously it was so stiff so that you could correct your tilting with the help of flukes, but now they do not give you that support and you had to use wall to straighten you up. Sorry my english, it is a bit hard to explain with my limited vocabulary.

What comes to my style when taking a dive: I use same the technique I've used during my good old swimmer-days; I make a small "hop/jump", bend my knees, raise the fin against the wall, let gravity take me down to a position where I'm mostly submerged, stop breathing , a little help with hands to adjust the position and finally use my legs to push myself gently from the wall to the diving position. Still no excessive flex/bend/tension to the fin. I'm very sure that this is not stressing the fin over it's purpose. Argh, I need that waterproof video camera..

And @Philip Fennell, I inspected the spring holes, and they are just perfect, no signs of any wear&tear, only some excess rubber from the mold I guess.

As a sidenote - if a Luno is indeed "very durable", I do not see how 4-5km could make the spring "weakened" beyond standard already. I observed the deadzone already after approx. 1km, so I'd say it must be something else.

Currently I'm thinking that before the spring was "broken-in", it was so stiff that small gaps/unevenness in plastic parts didn't matter. Now when it's "broken-in", those gaps causing mechanical "play" starts to show and I'm experiencing unintended looseness, which result "yaw" and more rocking than intended, which results sensitivity to my technique errors.

I'm more than happy to work my way through this by learning it by diving, actually that was my strength back in old days . However, I'm sensitive to the thought that the fin is not working as it should. Once I'm convinced that everything is okay, I promise to shut up and go diving that extra hour per day or so.

Regarding "standing" (as @Chipswim & @Philip Fennell pointed out), let me clarify a bit. When I said "standing", I meant really just standing in shallow end of the pool, the fin in resting position, NO flex/tension/whatever to spring, most weight on shoes/heels. While standing , time to time you tilt sideways (that heavy lady in the next lane causing waves) and flukes touch the floor. No force, just gravity affecting you and when tilting, flukes gave you some support. Previously it was so stiff so that you could correct your tilting with the help of flukes, but now they do not give you that support and you had to use wall to straighten you up. Sorry my english, it is a bit hard to explain with my limited vocabulary.

What comes to my style when taking a dive: I use same the technique I've used during my good old swimmer-days; I make a small "hop/jump", bend my knees, raise the fin against the wall, let gravity take me down to a position where I'm mostly submerged, stop breathing , a little help with hands to adjust the position and finally use my legs to push myself gently from the wall to the diving position. Still no excessive flex/bend/tension to the fin. I'm very sure that this is not stressing the fin over it's purpose. Argh, I need that waterproof video camera..

And @Philip Fennell, I inspected the spring holes, and they are just perfect, no signs of any wear&tear, only some excess rubber from the mold I guess.

As a sidenote - if a Luno is indeed "very durable", I do not see how 4-5km could make the spring "weakened" beyond standard already. I observed the deadzone already after approx. 1km, so I'd say it must be something else.

Currently I'm thinking that before the spring was "broken-in", it was so stiff that small gaps/unevenness in plastic parts didn't matter. Now when it's "broken-in", those gaps causing mechanical "play" starts to show and I'm experiencing unintended looseness, which result "yaw" and more rocking than intended, which results sensitivity to my technique errors.

I'm more than happy to work my way through this by learning it by diving, actually that was my strength back in old days . However, I'm sensitive to the thought that the fin is not working as it should. Once I'm convinced that everything is okay, I promise to shut up and go diving that extra hour per day or so.

I see the play you have in your fin which surely makes it harder to keep going straight I just didn't see the deadzone, I think you mean that the spring has a section where it loses it's ability to spring back, like maybe there's another force resisting it in someway i.e like something rubbing that increases friction enough to prevent the spring working properly through it's full range of motion or maybe the deadzone was referring to the point where the fin is close to the midpoint of your fins stroke where the springs resistance is at it's minimum, in this latter meaning, if this is what you meant, is it a case that you feel no resistance in the spring at all till you move it substantially, i'm a little confused.

 

[Chipswim]

Thankfully, your English is wonderful. I did make a six week trip through Finland in June 1980 or so right after getting a cast off my leg and a couple of screws removed holding the bones together. So I could muster a conversation in Finnish. Something like: "Good morning! How's it going?" Unfortunately that would be about it ¡

Supposedly, there were only three barefoot water skiers in all of Finland at the time. My most memorable occurrence at a lake in Vaasa was to watch them do a ski show. There was a crowd on the beach gathered to watch them. To my astonishment the girl sitting next to me chose to get a sun tan during the show... Whithout her shirt! I did get to barefoot with them after the show. Never saw her again .....Was hoping she might by now be swimming in the lane next to you.....

..... Like Philip says... Maybe your spring has weakened.... On the Luno. It's the most likely problem. There have been examples in the past of the small balls of rubber the spring is made of not completely melting in the mold. Then the spring looks fine but has a very short life.... Just as you describe.

Short term I'd do just as you intended adding a pin or pins to see if that helps. Being me I'd also get some nylon ties and wrap tightly around the rubber spring and the aluminum frame four or five places along its length. Very front, very back, and two or three spaced in between. This essentially grips the spring from the outside doing the same thing the pins are doing on the inside. This will take some, maybe all slack out of a weakening spring and protect it to a degree from further weakening. This could get you swimming well again immediately and if the problem isn't too severe last indefinitely! It is very easy to do and only takes a few minutes. It won't hurt anything (except a bit of the beauty) and may help a lot.

I think this is the best chance to get you going again right away. Good luck FinSailor!

 

[divebike]

y

Hmmmmmm....... While swimming this morning I will go over all this with my weird, lonely, imaginary friend who is great at getting to the heart of such problems..... By isolating the most unusual clue....

He wonders if you could get for him..... an introduction to.... Or (after Christmas) an underwater video of the lady making waves in the next lane?

your friend shouldn't be lonely he's got you

 

[divebike]

I hope she was a mermaid with water fully supporting her the whole time otherwise with 34 years of gravity it's a bit mean to finsailor to wish her to be in the lane next to him.

 

[Chipswim]

This is a photo posted by Connor... ie. Cdavis on deeper blue. Our resident Orca X18 swimmer.

We are the same age.... He is my inspiration!

As you can see Connor remains timeless though others may age...