2015 LUNOCET PRO

[finSailor]

I'm going to ask some other questions that've come to mind recently...

1. The type of lubrication used on the all aluminium 2015 Pro, are people using anything specific like Teflon based dry lubricants, like those used on bicycles or something more marine oriented or heavier duty?
2. Has anyone found the need to apply lock-thread to either the shoe bolts or the fin bolts?
3. If you're not using lock-thread have you used any grease/lubricant on the threads in the shoes to protect them from corrosion?
4. A long time ago, in a thread far far away someone talked about treating their shoes with some water-proofing agent but I don't remember what or how.
5. I've heard mixed stories, way back then, about the success of various makes of shoe used in this context so as time has moved on I'm wondering what the latest thoughts are on this from those people who have been actively using their fins of more recent times.

Philip

5. I tried 3 different shoes:

Lake: On dry, felt best on my feet, thanks to Boa system. Bolt-holes didn't match with Luno. Strangely, AA seems to have it fitted with Luno based on his video.

XLC: Fits with Luno bolt-holes, felt awful in water. Okay for me when biking.

Shimano: Fits well with Luno, okay for my feet too. Nice hydrodynamic bottom, but straps on the top quite elevated, so I'm worried about drag. I thought I felt increased drag comparing to XLC, but you know, I'm not reliable instrument to measure that

 

[divebike]

Doc, does your vertebrae parts move sideways like in the following video?

On it's own it doesn't matter , but if there are other other weak spots that allow rotation side to side then having these parts hold in against the rubber can help stabilise the fin sideways. You must have a decent dolphin kick and be reasonably coordinated if your a former high level competitive swimmer ,right ?

 

[Philip Fennell]

On it's own it doesn't matter , but if there are other other weak spots that allow rotation side to side then having these parts hold in against the rubber can help stabilise the fin sideways. You must have a decent dolphin kick and be reasonably coordinated if your a former high level competitive swimmer ,right ?

We tried a trick last time I was training where we had to swim a length apnea, dolphin-kick, with our eyes closed. Accompanied by a buddy of course who can tap you on the shoulder if you're going off course. This seems a good indicator of how symmetrical your action is. In my case I was using a pair of rubber training fins which, because they're not connected would probably amplify any issues you might have. That said, from the middle lane I managed to hit the side wall of the pool by half way!!! Not that that was my buddy's fault, I compounded the problem by misinterpreting their signals and actually corrected the wrong way.

Anyway, suffice to say, it might be a good test to see how you're laying down force into your stroke.


Philip

 

[neurodoc]

Philip, that's a great/revealing drill. I do a smaller version of it when pool swimming by closing my eyes for maybe five seconds then checking alignment. The first time I realized how much I didn't swim straight was in the ocean; I was surface swimming with monofin in maybe ten feet of water-with intentions of staying parallel to the shore. With no line to follow on the bottom of this "lane", I found myself constantly off-course. In fact, it was quite difficult to carry out the swim this way at all!

 

[neurodoc]

On the subject of correct dolphin kicking, and how to swim (fast) straight lines, I believe I've made somewhat of a breakthrough in my own understanding/technique. It may be old news for those with a finswimming background, but in the US that is a scarce background. The concept is straightforward: when looking at the undulation of the dolphin kick as a wave, where is the wave initiated and what direction does it "flow"? What I've found is that it is possible to kick a monofin and have the kick drive the butt upward/chest downward-which looks somewhat correct but is fundamentally backward. In this stroke, the undulation is driving the body backward, while the kick is driving it forward. This still results in forward swimming when wearing a monofin-but virtually no movement without one. When done correctly, the undulation initiates at the shoulders or upper back, and travels toward the feet, magnifying in amplitude until it drives the feet and fin. This doesn't look very different, but works totally differently. After some study, I see now that this is how Kars demonstrated the length of the pool in two dolphin kicks with no fin. For me, it suddenly transitions my stroke from fast-hard exertion to fast-almost no exertion. I believe that observing our stroke from the side, in video slow-motion, may be the only way to truly capture which it is we're doing. Go back and watch the video from the endless pool, or see what is possible with no fins at all with Ryan Lochte. In any case, the stroke must be optimized to get the best results from any monofin. What's the potential of the Lunocet system with a great stroke?

 

[neurodoc]

Here's another analysis that shows how to do it, though it doesn't go into "backward mode" so much:

 

[finSailor]

On it's own it doesn't matter , but if there are other other weak spots that allow rotation side to side then having these parts hold in against the rubber can help stabilise the fin sideways. You must have a decent dolphin kick and be reasonably coordinated if your a former high level competitive swimmer ,right ?

Yeah, it was not the only point that felt loose. On total there WAS a significant movement. I got it eliminated with my washer solution. I still think that was the cause for my problems. I kind of got it confirmed today.

Just came from the pool after an hour workout with my washer-upgraded-delrin-Luno.. Yay, back on the track again!
Difference compared to previous exercise was really noticeable.

I'm not saying that all the my problems last time originated from the unwanted movement of the fin. As a newbie to monofin, I'm just sensitive to errors in technique.

My theory is that first fin was quite stiff (before it was 'broken-in') and thus there was no mechanical play. I had fun. Then it started to loose its stiffness and lateral movement started to show itself and gave me disturbing signals, which broke my rhythm. I got confused and lost the touch. In the end I was fighting against the fin, and losing I think I was driving backwards, as @neurodoc said it.

Today, I didn't feel the fin. I mean I knew it was there attached to my shoes, but it felt so natural that it was almost like having just a new natural ability to glide through the water. No sounds, no jerky movements, fully responsive to the point that I almost forgot it was there. I was fully able to focus on trying different techniques (kick-glide, kick-kick-glide etc), which was really great. And I was again back to the point where I realised I need to work with my CO2 tolerance. And that's where I want to be.

When Luno works, it is just pure awesomeness!

 

[cdavis]

There is another way to see what your stroke is doing. Look at your stroke dry, sideways to a mirror. Don't let anyone see you, cause it looks ridiculous, yout lady will give you heck, but you can learn a whole lot about what your stroke is actually doing.

 

[marginatus]

Hi Fernando - your upgrades are on the way.

Hi @Ted Ciamillo,
what does that mean ?

 

[Chipswim]

FinSailor! Congratulations on solving your problem. I like your description of the feeling when your Luno is working properly!

Doc! Your very interesting description of a dolphin stroke which ONLY works with a fin sure fits me. I go well with one... almost not at all without. Swim was wonderful this morning as usual!

I have wondered how you guys stay straight and navigate in open water if there aren't visible cues.

 

[neurodoc]

Well, Chip, look at it this way: if you get your undulation moving you forward as well as your fin kick, you'll go even faster!

 

[Sarcomere]

I have only had a short swim with my 15' Lunocet so far, water is freezing, but it felt really nice. I have the Derlin vertebrae and see the same typed of movement or rotational instability. I'm not sure how this would effect the fun while swimming. Mine isn't boken in yet, but it feels as if I have a ton of available power so far.

Traveling with it is GREAT. Fits in my normal bag no problem and the fin is made very solid so I have no worries of it being damaged.

I have pearl Izumi tri fly IV shoes and the bolt pattern isn't perfect but if I use some muscle I can get all the screws in, threaded correctly.

Going to Mexico in Jan where I'll have a better chance to test out the fin, maybe i can get a better idea how it works then.

It did take a long time to get the fin, but I can imagine how hard it is to make something like this from scratch and make it work properly. There will probably always be things that can be improved on, but it seems like Ted and made a nice product.

 

[finSailor]

One more good workout with my 'washer-upgraded-delrin-Luno'. Still happy and still continuing with 1 pin only. I'm saving that 2nd pin for later use.

Regarding different kicking methods, I've had time to test few to propel myself underwater.

'Kick&Glide' do not feel as efficient as 'kick-kick-glide'. It somehow started to evolve to 'large amplitude kick - smaller amplitude kick - very small undulation/ankle movement & Glide'. It is kind of '3 gradually smaller kicks & glide'. That feels most effective and natural so far, 5 of those to go 25 meters very easily. This is again just based on the feeling how 'easy' it feels. I was watching some videos of Dolphins in natural habitat, and got that idea.
I guess the downside could be higher O2 consumption..and the positive is more stable, better pace compared to ''Kick&Glide'.. Anyone else?

I'm still restricted to that 'do not dive longer than 50m' rule, so can't yet test actual DYN personal best to really see which works best considering O2 usage..

Ps. I've reminded Santa that I need that waterproof camera _very_ badly. Actually we are driving to Lapland next Sunday, so it'll be possible to hold that old guy accountable that he shall deliver it..

 

[Fredd]

I stepped off shipping this week to get those aluminum vertebrae made and shipping of new units begins again on Monday. I have taken care of all the orders over six weeks old at this point with a few known exceptions such as Chip who was gracious enough to ask me not to send his unit in order of the schedule but rather wait until all the older orders were fulfilled. Thanks again Chip. Also, thank you to all who have put up with the midyear changes that dragged on for 6 months. PLEASE let me know if you have a standing order with me over 6 weeks that has not been fulfilled by emailing me at tciamillo@gmail.com. Delays are quickly becoming a thing of the past and I am working on getting more presses online for the upcoming season.

Again, thank you to everyone for your patience during these delivery delays.

Emailed YET again. Auto response only. No email from you since May this year. Auto response only. Does that mean that my order is lumped in with the "with a few known exceptions" pile?

Ted, please email me & at the very least let me know what is happening with my order. I have checked 'junk folders', added you to my address book & received all automated responses fine. So there isn't any problem in that respect.



Thank you for your order!

Order Information
Merchant: Ciamillo
Invoice Number: 1439

Whitby, North Yorkshire YO22 5DE
GB
Date/Time: 17-Mar-2014 13:16:11 PDT

 

[Chipswim]

One more good workout with my 'washer-upgraded-delrin-Luno'. Still happy and still continuing with 1 pin only. I'm saving that 2nd pin for later use.

Regarding different kicking methods, I've had time to test few to propel myself underwater.

'Kick&Glide' do not feel as efficient as 'kick-kick-glide'. It somehow started to evolve to 'large amplitude kick - smaller amplitude kick - very small undulation/ankle movement & Glide'. It is kind of '3 gradually smaller kicks & glide'. That feels most effective and natural so far, 5 of those to go 25 meters very easily. This is again just based on the feeling how 'easy' it feels. I was watching some videos of Dolphins in natural habitat, and got that idea.
I guess the downside could be higher O2 consumption..and the positive is more stable, better pace compared to ''Kick&Glide'.. Anyone else?

I'm still restricted to that 'do not dive longer than 50m' rule, so can't yet test actual DYN personal best to really see which works best considering O2 usage..

Ps. I've reminded Santa that I need that waterproof camera _very_ badly. Actually we are driving to Lapland next Sunday, so it'll be possible to hold that old guy accountable that he shall deliver it..

Your ability to use both large and small strokes mixed together as you wish is a very good indication that your Luno is behaving well! Usually the big Strokes remain even if the adjustment is off. Those small strokes and ankle flicks you described say you are set up near perfection.

How does it respond if you ask it to go faster? I read that you mostly prefer to swim conserving air and go longer. Just wondering about the acceleration available?

If 50's are too easy for you.... But the rule limits your breath hold to 50.... Maybe try a back loop or two while you are in the deep end. You'll need your hands to pull you over the top and through the bottom but it's entertaining and makes your 50 feel longer.

Photo 1 is of 2 pound set (1 pound each) of Everlast weighted gloves in a sporting store. These are actually the ones I'm using now. These fit like open finger gloves. The Golds Gym blue ones from wall mart are actually 3 pounds (1.5 pounds each) strap on weights. They work fine too but the Velcro holds more weight on those so it wears down the Velcro on those blue ones. On the blue ones I bought two pairs so I could use two same hand gloves. I wear one with the weight above my upper hand nuckles and the other under my lower palm so my hands fit together tighter. The gloves cost about $10 for a pair.

.

 

[Philip Fennell]

I'm still restricted to that 'do not dive longer than 50m' rule, so can't yet test actual DYN personal best to really see which works best considering O2 usage.

@finSailor A variation on Chip's suggestion is to do the following:

One length apnea and at the end relax into a static, for lets say 20 seconds, then apnea return length. We do this to simulate a dive. First part is the powered descent, second part is the glide and the third part is the return to the surface. You can vary the distance down the pool and 'glide' time as you wish but its another good way to extended your 'dive'. Obviously your not fining any further but you can judge how the return feels.

Philip

 

[finSailor]

@Chipswim: The acceleration is not as good as it was first. During 1st run it was really really good. But I think goes in line with softening spring. I hope to regain that level of acceleration after I'll add 2nd pin, but I'm postponing it until I've explored current settings very thoroughly. Have not yet bought those gloves, have to wait next salary, or maybe that old fat guy in red, with white hair and beard from Lapland heard me?

@Philip Fennell: Sounds a very effective rehearsal. However, I think the issue is not exactly the length of the dive, but they want to minimise the risk a freediver going BlackOut. I know there have been some incidents in nearby City Pool where the staff had to save a live.. so it's more like a safety boundary. I will go beyond when I finally get a trained buddy to watch over me.. Safety first, right?

 

[Philip Fennell]

I will go beyond when I finally get a trained buddy to watch over me.. Safety first, right?

A sound plan.

 

[marginatus]

Hi to all,
just talked with Ted and he's at the shop non stop to have all the aluminium parts ready (the ones that were previously Delrin) so not much time left to write on the forum...

 

[PoseidonSv]

Also waiting for mine since 27th february here. Hope i get the laters version.