2015 LUNOCET PRO

[finSailor]

Well then it might be just down to your technique - I have shipped over 100 Lunocet Pros and this is the first complaint about quality or performance. At this point, if you feel there is something wrong with the unit, I would like you to send it back to me for evaluation.

As I said earlier, I would be very very happy if it's just my technique

Thank you for offering such an evaluation service, but I'd still prefer to continue my own evaluation for now. But I'll keep that as an option if nothing helps (including my own non-destructive modifications).

As a matter of fact, I've discussed with some Finns to take my 'delrin-unit' for proper evaluation of several serious and experienced freedivers in Finland. I'd like to hear how they feel about it.

 

[Ted Ciamillo]

Very good idea as the most shining reviews I have had have all come from experienced, competitive freedivers - they may be able to help you with your technique. I have noticed instability in users unfamiliar with monofinning - it resolves on its own with practice. Get us some video of your technique if you can. Thanks.

 

[finSailor]

Philip, mine is aluminum. There is no flex whatsoever except for in the direction of the spring of course. Yes, it squeaks a bit at times. At first I was determined to chase down the squeak and I may yet do it, but it stopped bothering me a long time ago. I was not aware that some were delrin. It's normally a great material, but I have to say in this usage I like aluminum. Really? I'd love titanium even more ;^)

Doc, does your vertebrae parts move sideways like in the following video?

 

[Ted Ciamillo]

Finsailor - this play is fine.

 

[Marco_W]

Hi to all,
I have an aluminium vertebrae and hear also click sounds under water. In my case are the plastik bushing parts are not all in the same size.
The aluminium is scratching and clashing against each other. Ted know this since Sept. today i dissamble my Luno and thought about from where the problem is rising. Well I have, dont know how is it made by others, for each axle of the peduncle three plastik bushing inside.
The middle one has thinner wall, this is not the point much more that the bushings on the Outside have to much play inside the Aluminium vertabrae and to the VA axle. And the main point is, that the bushings (the Bearing) is not going through the hole distance in one piece!
Like i sad three pieces. A Bearing what is divide in three parts and in the middle, the spring- primary the center for all kind of movements made out of rubber cant be a good Bearing. Build like this it have to have movements inside the peduncle on each side.
It would be better if the bushing is going through all in one piece.
It would be much better if the axle`s are mounted inside the upper respectively inside the lower frame unit wich fix the spring. I imagine two axle`s ( upper and lower frame unit each one) wich are mounted with a press fitting maybe also with a involute gearing to the frame units. on the Outside should be a needle roller bearing bushes wich have to be salt resitand of course. This all makes the peduncle a bit bigger, but deffently more resistand against the force what it has to take.
Something else, for all who have flukes of the first model range, (with thick core on the outer ends) take care! one fluke of mine is already cutted after almost 4 month of using and i did take care where i was swimming or how i stand to dont bend to much the fluke outer ends.
From the first day (End of August 2014) i had my doubts cause it seem to be that there is to thinn rubber above and let it Ted know.
He agreed with me and changed the thickness on the outer ends of the Core. I hope that he is finally next week able to send me the needed parts
for all the "rockers" R`n`fn`R`
and all the Dolphins`R`n `fn Swimm and break all records

 

[Chipswim]

FinSailor!

Nice set up in your shop picture... So what to do now? Back together and try it again till the aluminum vertebrae arrives... I'd experiment with the zip wraps and additional pin or pins to get your fin tight and performing as it should.

Then back to the water checking out the swimming position and movement. If you are swimming on the surface with a snorkel... That is more difficult! Skip the snorkel for now and Experiment with swimming either submerged or flipped over on your back. Either of those are much easier and may solve the propulsion issues instantly.

If it's still weird and your Luno did tighten with the extra pins and zip straps.... Then be suspicious that your body may not be aligned or moving as you sense it is. Maybe some one can observe or video you swimming to get feedback from outside your head. In the mean time strive to really stretch out while swimming. Make yourself the longest you can possibly be from the finger tips to the trailing edge of your fin. Your entire body will arch during each stroke.... Like cracking a whip where it starts at the handle (your finger tips) and snaps out the very end (the trailing edge of your fin).

Get rid of anything you are wearing that may cause drag! Especially a modest swim suit with baggy legs! You will soon have the physique of Neptune or Poseidon anyway... Might as well get used to showing it off!!!!

A racing style speedo or racing jammers with the tight legs will do. The very tight wetsuits or fabric skinsuits the guys wear are even better but they are an extra effort and expense to wear everyday.

If you find you are too buoyant and waste energy staying submerged get a small amount of weight one or two kg. You can see in AA's video the girl has an object around her neck. It is likely a piece of bicycle inner tube with the amount of lead shot she likes to compensate for her lungs. It's something you make at home. The best swimmers you read in here wear those and make them themselves. It is not a commercial item. It can be large enough to go over your head or use the clasp modified from a nylon dog collar attached to the ends of the inner tube.

I like weighted exercise gloves instead. I get them from wall mart in the exercise department. Right now I prefer wearing Gold's Gym brand. (3 pounds per pair)...only one for daily swimming, two for slower swimming and longer gliding, none for sprinting. That would be a bit more than one half kg. Or 1.5 pounds per glove. I swim upside down a lot so the neck weight becomes uncomfortable hanging on the Adams apple / voice box. I think I'm still the only one wearing weighted gloves, but I really do prefer them so far. Might change with time.

Hope something gets you going above "stall speed"on you very next trip to the water! Faster (or slowly effortlessly gliding) is a lot more fun!

 

[finSailor]

Thanks Chip! As an ex-pro-swimmer I'd never use anything with baggy legs

Weighted gloves? Great tip! I was really pondering where to get some weight. I bought yesterday Technisub's micro mask, so there will be some new gear to test as soon as I get my Luno wet..have to find those gloves too..

Despite of some info published here today , I decided to get rid of that 'play' in my Luno my way.

After few hours tinkering, my Luno has now extra (3) stainless steel washers between delrin vertebrae parts and aluminium parts (around rear axle) . Two washers on the side where delrin vertebrae part was 1mm thinner compared to other side (and was unevenly drilled), thus wider gap.

Now it moves only up-down, no significant sideways/yaw/lateral at all! Also rocking is more moderate. There still are some, which is probably necessary anyway. t also feels stiffer (still only 1 pin).

Also 'deadzone' in the middle shown in one of the videos is gone. It feels entirely quiet too. I think lube took away these symptoms.

I'm really, really looking forward to get to the pool again..

Here are the washers, had to make 'em 'cause didn't have any with a 10mm hole readily available:

aaannd installed..

 

[Chipswim]

Very cool solutions! I'd absolutely expect that to work great! Wish I could be there with you to see the result. Expect it will be a giant smile!

Pro swimmer! Wow! Can't wait till you get going with this!

 

[finSailor]

Pro swimmer! Wow! Can't wait till you get going with this!

Eh.. very long time ago, so don't hold your breath for my sake

And no snorkeling in the pool, and I'll dive all daily workout distances in 1-2m depth face down.. Actually I need to buy that snorkel too, but one toy at the time. Next, some testing with that proper mask, and definitely I'll try those gloves too. I hope to get somewhere warm during spring, and then I'll need that snorkel too.

Pool closed for today here, but tomorrow..and sure, I'll report how it goes.

 

[Philip Fennell]

Eh.. very long time ago, so don't hold your breath for my sake

And no snorkeling in the pool, and I'll dive all daily workout distances in 1-2m depth face down.. Actually I need to buy that snorkel too, but one toy at the time. Next, some testing with that proper mask, and definitely I'll try those gloves too. I hope to get somewhere warm during spring, and then I'll need that snorkel too.

Pool closed for today here, but tomorrow..and sure, I'll report how it goes.

With regard to monofin technique, I stumbled upon this YouTube video the other day:



It's long, 20+ minutes, but the guy demonstrates dry exercises, pool exercises, do's and don'ts and appears to show a very sound technique. There are slow-motion sections too that allow you to study the undulations of the spine and hips plus the straight legs that my coaches have been trying to drill into me.

Philip

 

[Philip Fennell]

I'm going to ask some other questions that've come to mind recently...

1. The type of lubrication used on the all aluminium 2015 Pro, are people using anything specific like Teflon based dry lubricants, like those used on bicycles or something more marine oriented or heavier duty?
2. Has anyone found the need to apply lock-thread to either the shoe bolts or the fin bolts?
3. If you're not using lock-thread have you used any grease/lubricant on the threads in the shoes to protect them from corrosion?
4. A long time ago, in a thread far far away someone talked about treating their shoes with some water-proofing agent but I don't remember what or how.
5. I've heard mixed stories, way back then, about the success of various makes of shoe used in this context so as time has moved on I'm wondering what the latest thoughts are on this from those people who have been actively using their fins of more recent times.

Philip

 

[Ted Ciamillo]

1. The metal on metal is quite minimal - the high load areas are protected by the delrin bushings/ bearings. I have never lubricated any of the parts on mine. Some squeaking may occur during the break in period but goes away as the parts wear in. There will be a little anodize rub in those areas but it won't hurt anything. The most ano-injuries are going to occur at the bottom of the foot deck if you stand on it at the pool - I don't stand on mine however so it's clean.
2. Red loctite 242 is used on the footdeck to peduncle screws. Anti-seize is used in assembly on the fin bolts. This single application should prevent galling and cold weld but it wouldn't hurt to apply some more after multiple break-downs and build-ups.
3. The hardware in the shoes would benefit from a squirt of silicone grease before attaching to the lunocet as many of them are non-stainless alloys. My hardware that attaches the luno to the shoe is stainless.
4. I will let others add to this but my experience has been almost exclusively with SIDI brand - I have a pair that has about 5 years of use with minimal wear - probably seen over 200 hours - I never used any waterproofing except grease in the attachment holes.
5. Others may add - all I know is in 4.

It would be a good idea, if you are using brands other than Shimano or SIDI, to wait to purchase your shoes until your Luno arrives - take it down to your bike shop and verify the bolt-hole-pattern lines up. A few brands are off the standard.

 

[cdavis]

Second Phillips reference to that training vid. Best thing I've seen. I bookmarked it and look back every now and then.

 

[marginatus]

I would like to point out however - the delrin pieces have been changed back to aluminum and I am upgrading all the units that were sent out with the plastic vertebrae. Even though this has turned out to have no failures after all, I am still concerned about the sun exposure on a plastic part causing eventual failure over time. The all aluminum peduncle should have a life of at least ten years and that's the way they are shipping.

I stepped off shipping this week to get those aluminum vertebrae made and shipping of new units begins again on Monday. I have taken care of all the orders over six weeks old at this point with a few known exceptions such as Chip who was gracious enough to ask me not to send his unit in order of the schedule but rather wait until all the older orders were fulfilled. Thanks again Chip. Also, thank you to all who have put up with the midyear changes that dragged on for 6 months. PLEASE let me know if you have a standing order with me over 6 weeks that has not been fulfilled by emailing me at tciamillo@gmail.com. Delays are quickly becoming a thing of the past and I am working on getting more presses online for the upcoming season.

Again, thank you to everyone for your patience during these delivery delays.

@Ted Ciamillo
Just sent an email with "Fernando from Azores" on the subject

 

[noa]

@Ted Ciamillo
Just sent an email with "Fernando from Azores" on the subject

Oh brother, you're still on hold...? Wish you all the best with it.

 

[marginatus]

Oh brother, you're still on hold...? Wish you all the best with it.

Yep...
Thanks!

 

[Philip Fennell]

1. The metal on metal is quite minimal - the high load areas are protected by the delrin bushings/ bearings. I have never lubricated any of the parts on mine. Some squeaking may occur during the break in period but goes away as the parts wear in. There will be a little anodize rub in those areas but it won't hurt anything. The most ano-injuries are going to occur at the bottom of the foot deck if you stand on it at the pool - I don't stand on mine however so it's clean.
2. Red loctite 242 is used on the footdeck to peduncle screws. Anti-seize is used in assembly on the fin bolts. This single application should prevent galling and cold weld but it wouldn't hurt to apply some more after multiple break-downs and build-ups.
3. The hardware in the shoes would benefit from a squirt of silicone grease before attaching to the lunocet as many of them are non-stainless alloys. My hardware that attaches the luno to the shoe is stainless.
4. I will let others add to this but my experience has been almost exclusively with SIDI brand - I have a pair that has about 5 years of use with minimal wear - probably seen over 200 hours - I never used any waterproofing except grease in the attachment holes.
5. Others may add - all I know is in 4.

It would be a good idea, if you are using brands other than Shimano or SIDI, to wait to purchase your shoes until your Luno arrives - take it down to your bike shop and verify the bolt-hole-pattern lines up. A few brands are off the standard.

Thanks @Ted Ciamillo

 

[Ted Ciamillo]

Hi Fernando - your upgrades are on the way.

 

[Kervyn Koa Wing]

Hi Fernando - your upgrades are on the way.

Ted, Do you have a record of which fins were shipped with the Deltrin Vertebra? I tried the metal test tap, and it seems to sound different from the confirmed metal Parts...But I'm not sure if the different sound is a function of the part shape and the damping around, or just different material...

On another note, bike shop finally getting the Shoes on Tuesday... Will give my first impressions as soon as I get them...

 

[finSailor]

Ted, Do you have a record of which fins were shipped with the Deltrin Vertebra? I tried the metal test tap, and it seems to sound different from the confirmed metal Parts...But I'm not sure if the different sound is a function of the part shape and the damping around, or just different material...

On another note, bike shop finally getting the Shoes on Tuesday... Will give my first impressions as soon as I get them...

Hi, also aluminium gives you a different sound depending thickness and form of the part.

If you scratch aluminium, it reveals shiny surface. Delrin is black thorough. Delrin is also much softer, ie. you can easily cut it with a knife.