AIDA World championship indoor 2011- Lignano

Simos · Oct 18, 2011

Kars said:
BTW about those floats, why are safeties carrying those? I suppose it's for those that do not surface near a line or wall. The danger of touch with such small floats (enough stable support?) is present as the safeties are usually trailing a (monofin)diver.

In my first comp, I surfaced in the middle of the lane (don't ask why!) - I had a foggy mask and tried to go for the float but wasn't close enough. I ended up dipping and getting a red card. Point being, it's debatable whether realistically the safety diver can have the float in the right position for someone to surface and hold onto it. I guess there's no harm having them - don't think it's an issue?

Floats do look cool though (think baywatch) and presumably make it easier for lazy safeties to swim and focus on watching the competitor lol

Also agree with your comments on touch Kars - for sure safeties can wait for judges orders to intervene OR in case of clear BO or samba that could result in injury (e.g. banging head against edge of pool, but then again safety could place their arm over the edge of the pool and if the competitors touches it, tough luck)

Simos · Oct 18, 2011

trux said:
Now without joking, on a serious note: when we are at the rules changes - I just found out on Facebook from one of the very top Czech female competitors, that women breast work like car spoilers, and the bigger they are, the better hydrodynamics, better glide, and lesser drag. So in fact men and flat women are in a big disadvantage. That's completely unjust and must be put right by the rules! It's a shame AIDA did not do anything about it yet. I have to agree with Osusim that they are all completely asleep when they did not act against such injustice until now!

The unnamed female competitor promised to send me the physical theory and all necessary formulas, so that I can incorporate corrective factors into the ranking. It will be done promptly (perhaps tonight already). I will just need that every female competitor sends me a photo of their breasts. Personal measurement by myself or by an approved jury is another alternative. I'll be the head of the jury and will appoint its members (bribes are welcome).

Unfortunately on FB, some women already requested money for their photos. To avoid that, 10m will be deduced by default from every female performance (5m at depth disciplines), and only after delivering the photo, or being personally measured, the penalty will be corrected to correspond to the real breast size.

Men do not need to bother sending their photos.

Clearly from their position they would result in upthrust if you are swimming face down, which would need more weight. Not sure it's so straightforward - I would say that it would be more beneficial to swim chest up if you have big breasts. :duh

Good point though Trux. Not sure how it escaped AIDA but there you go.

EDIT: Irrelevant but funny: this (http://forums.deeperblue.com/constant-weight/92815-weight-loss-tips.html) was just posted in CONSTANT WEIGHT LOL

Mullins · Oct 18, 2011

trux said:
Men do not need to bother sending their photos.

The new ruling may need to apply to those who are heavy steroid users Trux.

Aside from that I believe your logic is sound.

Kars · Oct 19, 2011

Maybe a female judge will start to ask for our photo's because a big '3rd leg', 'dong', could yield some extra points being extra drag in the water. Or men with small ones get penalty points...

Jouskari · Oct 19, 2011

trux said:
Now without joking, on a serious note: when we are at the rules changes - I just found out on Facebook from one of the very top Czech female competitors, that women breast work like car spoilers, and the bigger they are, the better hydrodynamics, better glide, and lesser drag.
.

Kars said:
Maybe a female judge will start to ask for our photo's because a big '3rd leg', 'dong', could yield some extra points being extra drag in the water. Or men with small ones get penalty points...

... Freud would have a field day here on DB.

jome · Oct 19, 2011

How about we change the touch rule opposite. The safetydiver WILL always pat the surfacing diver in the back. Fair for all, supports safety. If he doesn't pat, that's not a DQ, but by default they should, just to check you're ok and at arms length.

trux · Oct 19, 2011

Frankly told I do not see any simple easy solution for the touch rule. It was introduced because at at one of the early depth championships (if I remember well, it was in Hawaii), competitor's team prevented a clearly collapsing freediver from reimmersing under the surface by wildly "celebrating" with him, "stealing"so the victory from another competitor. The rule was introduced in the night before the next comeptition day.

So we have basically three possibilities:

either we permit any touch, and will face again that a BO, or serious difficulties may be masked by competitor's team
or we keep it as it is, facing again and again stupid disqualifications for no real reason
or we permit judges deciding the limit, and whether the touch was helping the competitor or not, and introducing so another level of subjectivity and the possibility of results manipulaion by the judge, and big differences among individual judges

Another possibility would be the interpretation of the current rules as I heard it from Bill Stromberg - as long as the safety diver is appointed and not part of competitor's own team, his coach or his friend, and he admits the touch was not done for safety reasons, the competitor can successfully protest. On my mind that makes the best sense, although of course with the small community we are, it is difficult to avoid that even appointed safety diver may have friendly relation to a competitor.

MikkoP · Oct 19, 2011

Three of my dives from Lignano:

261 m DYN in finals, yellow card for grab:

166 m DNF in finals, white card:

204 m DYN in qualifications, white card:

osusim · Oct 19, 2011

trux said:
So we have basically three possibilities:

either we permit any touch, and will face again that a BO, or serious difficulties may be masked by competitor's team

or we keep it as it is, facing again and again stupid disqualifications for no real reason

or we permit judges deciding the limit, and whether the touch was helping the competitor or not, and introducing so another level of subjectivity and the possibility of results manipulaion by the judge, and big differences among individual judges

We may allow an ACCIDENTAL touch:
- during STA then an athlete does fast stand up and safety/coach have no time to remove arm or even tries to make PLANNED tick at the same time;
- after SP + let say 10-15 sec in case of no samba or PBMM like things happened.

trux · Oct 19, 2011

osusim said:
We may allow an ACCIDENTAL touch.

Yes, but then we need a judge to decide whether it was accidental or not. I can imagine a coach "accidentally" just doing a "planned" tap on the back of the competitor while helping him to handle a strong samba with it. Generally, I believe, any touch from own coach should be looked at quite strictly as it is now. At an appointed safety, it is something altogether different, and I see no reason why the judge could not ask the safety whether the touch was accidental, a mistake, or for safety purpose.

MikkoP · Oct 19, 2011

osusim said:
We may allow an ACCIDENTAL touch:
- after SP + let say 10-15 sec in case of no samba or PBMM like things happened.

What if we just changed the time judges have to wait before giving the card? Now it's 30 seconds. I think it would be better that once they see everything is fine they could give the card earlier, so there would be less time and temptation for anyone to touch or congratulate the athlete. It would also be better for the audience.

Because, honestly, I haven't ever seen an athlete come up, do their SP well, chill out and then suddenly black out 25 seconds after surfacing. I doubt anyone else has seen that either. If there are problems, you can always see them coming, so judges can still take their time, when needed, before showing the card. What the judges are currently doing during that 30s is mostly just watching if anyone touches the athlete (who is already fine) or that the athlete doesn't accidentally put their mouth underwater. Which in my mind, again, doesn't make much sense.

runehallum · Oct 19, 2011

MikkoP said:
Because, honestly, I haven't ever seen an athlete come up, do their SP well, chill out and then suddenly black out 25 seconds after surfacing. I doubt anyone else has seen that either. If there are problems, you can always see them coming, so judges can still take their time, when needed, before showing the card. What the judges are currently doing during that 30s is mostly just watching if anyone touches the athlete (who is already fine) or that the athlete doesn't accidentally put their mouth underwater. Which in my mind, again, doesn't make much sense.

I once came up with a samba that lasted 2min - after a deep dive.

MikkoP · Oct 19, 2011

runehallum said:
I once came up with a samba that lasted 2min - after a deep dive.

Well, that's quite interesting. How did you manage to do that? :t

Anyway, I suppose your samba started pretty much immediately after your surfacing, not close to 30 seconds after it?

runehallum · Oct 19, 2011

MikkoP said:
Well, that's quite interesting. How did you manage to do that? :t

Anyway, I suppose your samba started pretty much immediately after your surfacing, not close to 30 seconds after it?

True. I think it was due to a squeeze so it took a long time to get the oxygen back out in the body

Mullins · Oct 19, 2011

Wow, that must have scared the safeties. Or bored them.

runehallum · Oct 19, 2011

Mullins said:
Wow, that must have scared the safeties. Or bored them.

It was more like an internal samba after a short while - nobody could see it, but I feelt it

Jouskari · Oct 20, 2011

MikkoP said:
What if we just changed the time judges have to wait before giving the card? Now it's 30 seconds. I think it would be better that once they see everything is fine they could give the card earlier, so there would be less time and temptation for anyone to touch or congratulate the athlete. It would also be better for the audience.

Because, honestly, I haven't ever seen an athlete come up, do their SP well, chill out and then suddenly black out 25 seconds after surfacing. I doubt anyone else has seen that either. If there are problems, you can always see them coming, so judges can still take their time, when needed, before showing the card. What the judges are currently doing during that 30s is mostly just watching if anyone touches the athlete (who is already fine) or that the athlete doesn't accidentally put their mouth underwater. Which in my mind, again, doesn't make much sense.

I belive it wouldn´t do much good for the judges. Already now the 30 s. comes pretty fast when you try to recollect what happend, stop the stopwatches and figure out if the dive was short or not etc.

I´m inclined to go for Trux:s approach on this one. Sometimes some rules and laws must have room for subjectivity (nothing is always black and white). So I would suggest that for this rule (and this rule only), the judge could be able to make a subjective judgment on if the safetys touch did or did not actually help the diver and judge accordingly or the safety admits the touch was a misstake thus clearing the athlete but only with the sanction of the judge.

In any unclear situation or when suspecting cheating any other diver could make a protest and have it go for a Jury vote.

chrismar · Oct 20, 2011

Jouskari said:
I belive it wouldn´t do much good for the judges. Already now the 30 s. comes pretty fast when you try to recollect what happend, stop the stopwatches and figure out if the dive was short or not etc.

I´m inclined to go for Trux:s approach on this one. Sometimes some rules and laws must have room for subjectivity (nothing is always black and white). So I would suggest that for this rule (and this rule only), the judge could be able to make a subjective judgment on if the safetys touch did or did not actually help the diver and judge accordingly or the safety admits the touch was a misstake thus clearing the athlete but only with the sanction of the judge.

In any unclear situation or when suspecting cheating any other diver could make a protest and have it go for a Jury vote.

Changing the rule to prevent anyone from supporting the athlete would be mostly sufficient. It's hardly the only rule out there with subjectivity involved.

Possibly the most insane application of this rule I've witnessed is the red card for touching when Kathryn surfaced on the side of the pool after a DNF and her finger touched the foot of a judge standing too close. Red card. Eventually it was overturned, but how exactly was that the athlete's fault and how did it advantage them?

Zuna · Oct 20, 2011

Bravo Goran, amazing dive!

sgnips · Oct 20, 2011

chrismar said:
Possibly the most insane application of this rule I've witnessed is the red card for touching when Kathryn surfaced on the side of the pool after a DNF and her finger touched the foot of a judge standing too close. Red card. Eventually it was overturned, but how exactly was that the athlete's fault and how did it advantage them?

i think the touch rule should remain this restrictive to avoid any kind of subjectivity
i totally agree with Marcello and other judges giving Goran the red card, even if he maybe knew from the beginning that a protest was 100% leading to a white card
some decisions must be taken away from external pressure (public, coach, the athlete himself) to guarantee fair judgement

chapeau Goran for your behavior after the dive :king

AIDA World championship indoor 2011- Lignano

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