AIDA World championship indoor 2011- Lignano

[trux]

The logic is one thing, and rules entirely another one. If we do not agree with the rules, we have to change them, but until they are changed, we should follow and obey them, otherwise we can stop making rules altogether, and just follow common sense and logic

 

[mermaidgirl]

Aida will be electing a new technical officer in December. We all need to remember to submit our votes then. We might also start making a list for rules which should be revised and submitted to the committee. Changes must be voted on by the entire assembly. Several situations here at Lignano have suggested some revisions are necessary, as did occurrences at Kalamata.
We all have a voice- we just need to use it.

 

[Jouskari]

Aida will be electing a new technical officer in December. We all need to remember to submit our votes then. We might also start making a list for rules which should be revised and submitted to the committee. Changes must be voted on by the entire assembly. Several situations here at Lignano have suggested some revisions are necessary, as did occurrences at Kalamata.
We all have a voice- we just need to use it.

Well spoken!

 

[efattah]

Personally I think the results in static were partially due to the format of the competition. From my experience it is not possible to manage a good static after doing so many 'max' swims on the days right before.

If I were organizing this competition, static training/qualifying, static competition would be first, then dynamic training/qualification/competition.

Doing a good static requires no lactic/stressful activities for several days before hand. In fact even before static started I felt there would be no big times.

 

[Simos]

Don't know if this is the time or place but since it's related to what Ulf has mentioned (and also jumping on the bandwagon of whining about the rules...).

Anyone else feels that AP is pointless when it comes to pool competitions? I never really why it's needed and it seems to crop up in the rules in all sorts of odd ways (penalties, ranking in case of tie, who dives first etc)

I must be missing something

 

[laminar]

Personally I think the results in static were partially due to the format of the competition. From my experience it is not possible to manage a good static after doing so many 'max' swims on the days right before.

If I were organizing this competition, static training/qualifying, static competition would be first, then dynamic training/qualification/competition.

Doing a good static requires no lactic/stressful activities for several days before hand. In fact even before static started I felt there would be no big times.

That may be, but if the limitations of competition organizing may make it easier to hold heats in all disciplines first and then finals (also for spectators/television/internet coverage) then competitors will have to train with that in mind.

Winning or placing well in all three finals would be an accomplishment similar to winning multiple medals at a swimming Olympics, for example. For Phelps, it wasn't just that he won all those golds and made a couple of WRs, but that he swam most of the prelims (at least for the individual events) and semifinals leading up to each final. All in the space of a week.

On several occasions he (and other competitors) have gone from a taxing event like IM or 200 fly and then had a short rest and swum in another qualifying or finals race. Very difficult and that's something that everyone needs to figure out in training.

There are likely recovery protocols that can be done to help minimize the effects of a long, anaerobic swim the night before a static comp. Perhaps we haven't really explored those fully - especially if the schedule for world championships changes from one year to the next? If the schedule was consistent (not realistic?) year after year, then this would be a necessity.

I would be interested to hear from competitors about how they felt throughout the comp. What would be your preferred schedule overall? Organizers?

 

[Simos]

Speaking of which, what was Phelps' announced performance in the last comp he took part in? (sorry a bit immature, but couldn't resist )

 

[trux]

@ Simos Regarding the AP's: First of all, the AP is needed at all depth disciplines. Unless we want to change the format completely there too (many would be against free depth for safety reasons). So the rules handling announced performances are alrready there, hence it is simple applying them for the pool disciplines too. It makes it all also more unified, which simplifies the judging and ranking.

Then, the AP's at pool disciplines are very handy tool for the strategy fight, which makes the competitions often very interesting too. You can decide starting first with a shocking performance, decimating so your rivals psychologically, or you can put a high AP, and waiting to see what others have in their sleeves.

Besides it, it is handy for determining your starting time - especially useful at single day competitions, when you can then adjust the starting time to your habits, or it can permit you coaching others from your team.

And finally, unlike what you tell, it is very useful for the ties. If there were no AP's, there would be a very high number of ties. The AP's help resolving the majority of them.

Hope it helps

 

[laminar]

Are you really planning the competition 2 years in advance, or was it a mistake and it should read 2012 Kits Pool Challenge instead of 2013? If you have at least an approximate date, please send it to me together with some other details, so that I can put it on the competition calendar at Apnea.cz, and make some promotion to it there too. I hope you'll find some top athletes worldwide to participate there! Will be exciting to see what performances we'll see in such conditions. What is the depth profile? Constant depth, or is one end very shallow?

It has been a thought of mine and for many of us here.

However, a couple of things that would make it less than ideal:

1. At one end the pool is only 1m deep (possibly slightly less?)

One solution is to start at the shallow end as most people will not make the second turn. However, a few might and they would have a very challenging turn trying to prevent themselves from floating to the surface and also getting a good push-off.

Part of the appeal would be seeing who would go over 300m in this pool. I think it would be a lot easier than in a 50m pool.

2. You can stand up anywhere, so perhaps this is in violation of AIDA rules (the bottom starts very shallow at the west end and then deepens through the middle to just about 2m and then gets to about 1.5m at the east end)

3. There is no edge to measure and judge from. You would have to come up with another way to measure performances

4. Judging would have to be in the water - it would be possible to walk or swim along with the athlete, but that could be easily problematic

5. Spectators can watch from the north side of the pool deck with some nice views, but the pool is so long that it might be boring. Perhaps we could have a minimum entry requirement of 175m-200m or so to ensure that people make the first turn and come back the other way.

6. Would WRs be valid in Kits Pool? If not, that might keep people away.

Otherwise it would be a gorgeous venue for something like this.

The other challenge is enticing high level competitors away from Europe. It is a lot more expensive to fly to Vancouver from Europe vs. locations within Europe.

What do you guys think?

 

[Simos]

I only mention pool competitions Trux - of course it's necessary for depth, as well as high jump. (not joking)

I just find it a bit odd that your ability to predict your own performance can determine the winner in case of a tie! Surely it has to be about freediving.

I understand the point about tactics which is what I don't like. In this case if someone announced 20m instead of 1m they would have won.

Happy to drop this point as it's probably derailing the thread and I am sure that the AP won't be dropped from pool disciplines any time soon. (I'll start a new thread if anyone wants to discuss)

EDIT for anyone interested: http://forums.deeperblue.com/genera...-make-sense-pool-competitions.html#post863767

 

[trux]

I find it an excellent idea and I definitely would like it happending, Pete

1. At one end the pool is only 1m deep (possibly slightly less?) One solution is to start at the shallow end as most people will not make the second turn. However, a few might and they would have a very challenging turn trying to prevent themselves from floating to the surface and also getting a good push-off.

At DNF it should not be a problem. At DYN, I think the last WC in Egypt had a similarly shallow pool end, and additionally the walls were not vertical or stright, I believe. So just another challenge, but not impossible to overcome. Would be a problem for very few (if any) anyway.

2. You can stand up anywhere, so perhaps this is in violation of AIDA rules (the bottom starts very shallow at the west end and then deepens through the middle to just about 2m and then gets to about 1.5m at the east end)

Standing is not a problem as soon as you have your mouth over the surface first. Most competitors know how to handle it in shallow pools.

3. There is no edge to measure and judge from. You would have to come up with another way to measure performances

You could do it under CMAS rules - they drop a small weight before surfacing, and then they messure its distance from the wall with a laser guided device.

4. Judging would have to be in the water - it would be possible to walk or swim along with the athlete, but that could be easily problematic

Inflantable kayaks or prams will do an excellent job in such case

5. Spectators can watch from the north side of the pool deck with some nice views, but the pool is so long that it might be boring. Perhaps we could have a minimum entry requirement of 175m-200m or so to ensure that people make the first turn and come back the other way.

Have you ever seen some spectators at a freediving competition? rofl
Well, put a group of aquagym or synchronized swimming somewhere near, or sell them some beer, and the dozen of spectators will be more than happy.

6. Would WRs be valid in Kits Pool? If not, that might keep people away.

As far as I can see, then yes. Minimal pool lenght is defined, but there is no maximal limit.


I hope you do it!

 

[laminar]

The other challenge: booking the pool.

But there's always a way.

 

[MikkoP]

Something that was on my mind, but I didn't check until now, was the case of the tie for silver in DYN. Guy and Brew both announced 1m, and finished with the same number of points, but the relevant rule to decide tied results is:

3.2.6.3
In the case of an equal number of points, the winner of an event will be the one (athlete/team) with the smallest difference between announced performance (AP) and realized performance (RP).


The difference between AP and RP was 250 for Guy and 260 for Mikko, so by 3.2.6.3 Guy should have been awarded silver, with Mikko bronze.

Now I hate the grab rule as much as the next guy, and I think Mikko's incredible swim should be a clean 261 points and new national record, but is this a case of our rulebook not being followed to the letter?

Oh, that's true. It never occurred to me that rule works that way too, I just thought that since RP and AP are the same, the medal has to be shared. But the jury thought that too. Of which I (and Bjarte) are not very sad, I have to admit.

Good point, maybe another rule that needs a bit of polishing. I don't think it makes a lot of sense in cases like these, because most of the yellow cards we get don't make much sense in the first place.

 

[efattah]

That may be, but if the limitations of competition organizing may make it easier to hold heats in all disciplines first and then finals (also for spectators/television/internet coverage) then competitors will have to train with that in mind.

This may be true, but in that case we would never see a world record in static at the world championships, instead the record would always be set in some small pool competition with almost no media or spectators. I think part of the world championships is to get impressive performances. The conditions could be rigged such that everyone makes 3 minutes in static, but I guess it would be less impressive.

 

[osusim]

Aida will be electing a new technical officer in December. We all need to remember to submit our votes then. We might also start making a list for rules which should be revised and submitted to the committee. Changes must be voted on by the entire assembly. Several situations here at Lignano have suggested some revisions are necessary, as did occurrences at Kalamata.
We all have a voice- we just need to use it.

Rules must be updated before New Year also. I've got a feeling AIDA board spent all energy in Kill the Bill action and later came to long apnoea sleep.

 

[Mullins]

Eric, do you think we'll see a competition WR in the forseeable future anyway?

 

[trux]

Eric, do you think we'll see a competition WR in the forseeable future anyway?

Well, since CMAS freshly introduced statics, we'll hear about new World Records in STA at every CMAS competition, and they'll be all over the mass media. Just like they have just set an 80+m CWT World Record a few weeks ago rofl

 

[Kattie]

1. At one end the pool is only 1m deep (possibly slightly less?)

5. Spectators can watch from the north side of the pool deck with some nice views, but the pool is so long that it might be boring. Perhaps we could have a minimum entry requirement of 175m-200m or so to ensure that people make the first turn and come back the other way.

6. Would WRs be valid in Kits Pool? If not, that might keep people away.

Most pools in the UK have a shallow end of 0.9m (minimum depth for a comp)and of course it's not ideal but I've never seen it stop anyone. It just adds to the challenge. The rules say that for world championships the minimum depth has to be 1.2m. but the sections 6.4 and 6.5 on world records does not mention this so I imagine that it would be fine.

Spectators? I agree with Ivo that they'll turn up if the hotdogs are good and the beer is cheap ;-)

Finally it would indeed be far for Europeans but we have to start considering Asia in the freediving world geography. Vancouver is a short flight from Japan and Korea where the sport is growing! 2013 may be early but the more people will talk about the possibilities of that pool and the more likely people will turn up.

 

[efattah]

Can someone tell me if it is still allowed to do static on the bottom of the pool. For many years it was-- but I heard it was going to be removed from the rules.

All of Andy LeSauce's static world records were done on the bottom.

 

[mermaidgirl]

Can someone tell me if it is still allowed to do static on the bottom of the pool. For many years it was-- but I heard it was going to be removed from the rules.

All of Andy LeSauce's static world records were done on the bottom.

No Eric, you cannot . I just took the judge course and Grant talked about that change