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Avoid C4 - New fins cracked - no support from C4
- Thread starterDarryll
- Start date
- Tags
- c4 carbon fins c4 review
Thread Status: Hello
, There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
I own many c4 fins and c4 guns, actually pretty much every fin and and gun, as long as it is not a user error they have best warranty. By far best carbon just quite fragile.
My friend Proca!
I would never expect carbon fins to be as strong as that
as I avoid being run over by bulldozers, but I get your point and agree...I would have thought the C4 carbon blades should be a lot stronger...My Omer blades, took a hammering from my shore dives through the waves and on the reef and I had no issues. I bought these blades for boat dives...no waves etc..guess I just got a dodgy fin and dodgier service.
I would never expect carbon fins to be as strong as that
as I avoid being run over by bulldozers, but I get your point and agree...I would have thought the C4 carbon blades should be a lot stronger...My Omer blades, took a hammering from my shore dives through the waves and on the reef and I had no issues. I bought these blades for boat dives...no waves etc..guess I just got a dodgy fin and dodgier service.
Darryll,
I just touched a wooden branch swimming down the river curent, and my plastic fin broke down, but before that i used it for 2 years and in touch conditions, all in scratches. My friend broke new fin 2 times in water it was just a vedy bad luck, he bumped something sharp probably. So You never know in which situation you will brake your fin, sometimes it is a bad luck and usualy it is your faoult...
However, the company producing the most expensive carbon fins on the market should be more open to a client, help to solve a problem not only to cover their ass by saying: "it is your fault, go away".
Nata... You are marketing director but You have no idea how to deal with situation like that... disaster!
I just touched a wooden branch swimming down the river curent, and my plastic fin broke down, but before that i used it for 2 years and in touch conditions, all in scratches. My friend broke new fin 2 times in water it was just a vedy bad luck, he bumped something sharp probably. So You never know in which situation you will brake your fin, sometimes it is a bad luck and usualy it is your faoult...
However, the company producing the most expensive carbon fins on the market should be more open to a client, help to solve a problem not only to cover their ass by saying: "it is your fault, go away".
Nata... You are marketing director but You have no idea how to deal with situation like that... disaster!
Totally.
I am open-minded.
That is why I said I had a few bumps...head in caves etc and probably the fin on something, but I cannot be 100% sure that is why it cracked - no chips on blade ends etc...I contacted the company by mail and was told - go to the retailer - I went to retailer and they also contacted C4. They got an answer within 1 hour...."customer's fault" - without seeing the fin.
I wouldn't expect them to give me a new fin, etc...but if I was manufacturing high-end products and they malfunction for ANY reason, I'd want my Research and Development Team to get the product and investigate.
Part of my job is Design related so I do have an understanding of material properties and product design etc.
The silver lining in this is that I have been given good advice from other companies and divers...learned some new things and how important customer service is.
So going to play with carbon fibre soon for fun and for my business, not let my customers experience the lack of service I have experienced.
I am open-minded.
That is why I said I had a few bumps...head in caves etc
and probably the fin on something, but I cannot be 100% sure that is why it cracked - no chips on blade ends etc...I contacted the company by mail and was told - go to the retailer - I went to retailer and they also contacted C4. They got an answer within 1 hour...."customer's fault" - without seeing the fin. I wouldn't expect them to give me a new fin, etc...but if I was manufacturing high-end products and they malfunction for ANY reason, I'd want my Research and Development Team to get the product and investigate.
Part of my job is Design related so I do have an understanding of material properties and product design etc.
The silver lining in this is that I have been given good advice from other companies and divers...learned some new things and how important customer service is.
So going to play with carbon fibre soon for fun
and for my business, not let my customers experience the lack of service I have experienced.
....you bought carbonfins. they have a lot of advantages against plasticfins.
but they do have at least one very well known and logically disadvantage against plasticfins.
they will break much easier then most plasticfins.
one need to develop a certain style how to use these fins to protect them from getting damaged.
you cant simply throw them into a boat or down the rocks, you cant bang them onto the reef or the rocks
while diving, or even push yourself of the bottom with it. but you sure know that already.
you wrote to c4 : quote "...we dived a few pinnacles and wrecks so there was a bit of current and the occasional bump into something...nothing near what I am used to so no problems until I got on deck and discovered the crack in my fin.
I wrote to C4 and sent them pics...only to get a very quick reply back that I was at fault and there would be no warranty to cover this.
so they got your report how it might have happened and they got the foto of the fin with the crack.
i would have given you the same reply.
if what you really wanted from them was an offer to repair the fins for you, you could have mentioned that in your mail.
i have seen many fins of friends from different brands breaking. i have had some fins breaking myself.
in some particular instance i reported with pics to the manufacturer and was getting full warranty replacement.
but if i had the same particular problem as you have, i would not bother trying to get anything on warranty or customerservice.
ask around the net if anyone craftsman knows how to fix those cracks, or just cut off two inches of that fin and keep using it.
and try to avoid keep bumping into somethings with your carbonfins....
but they do have at least one very well known and logically disadvantage against plasticfins.
they will break much easier then most plasticfins.
one need to develop a certain style how to use these fins to protect them from getting damaged.
you cant simply throw them into a boat or down the rocks, you cant bang them onto the reef or the rocks
while diving, or even push yourself of the bottom with it. but you sure know that already.
you wrote to c4 : quote "...we dived a few pinnacles and wrecks so there was a bit of current and the occasional bump into something...nothing near what I am used to so no problems until I got on deck and discovered the crack in my fin.
I wrote to C4 and sent them pics...only to get a very quick reply back that I was at fault and there would be no warranty to cover this.
so they got your report how it might have happened and they got the foto of the fin with the crack.
i would have given you the same reply.
if what you really wanted from them was an offer to repair the fins for you, you could have mentioned that in your mail.
i have seen many fins of friends from different brands breaking. i have had some fins breaking myself.
in some particular instance i reported with pics to the manufacturer and was getting full warranty replacement.
but if i had the same particular problem as you have, i would not bother trying to get anything on warranty or customerservice.
ask around the net if anyone craftsman knows how to fix those cracks, or just cut off two inches of that fin and keep using it.
and try to avoid keep bumping into somethings with your carbonfins....
....carry your smartphone on a dive boat, repeatedly let saltwater splash on it, drop it onto the boatflooring and let saltwater runover it,
and when it finally malfunction you call the company and ask for warranty ?
there are certain things you not supposed to do with certain products.
bumping carbonfiber fins into some rocks is one such thing you not supposed to do.
and if you do and they break, you can kindly inform the company about your misuse of their product
and hope they kindly help you out....somehow.
if they do, be happy. if they dont, accept it and dont bash their product or their service.
my advise, stick to plasticfins....
But they are the most expensive company producing carbon fins. I would rather call their product luxury good and if I categorize something like that I would expect the same service (being nice, helpful and polite). For example smartphone is not luxury product it is mass production (most people use smartphones) and despite the fact that some smarphones might be more expensive than C4 fins thay are still mass product, so I don't expect service. Basicly, It is not my problem, but I hate bad service, so that is why I write here.
My advice would be, stick to carbon fins, even if You brake them, buy new or fix broken one and enjoy freediving in carbon fins.
My advice would be, stick to carbon fins, even if You brake them, buy new or fix broken one and enjoy freediving in carbon fins.
....totally agree on that advice ! i may add (something i always do) always have a pair plasticfins as a back up with you when travelling.
i have not seen (and would like to see it) the original message darryl wrote to c4.
his conclusion of their reply here in his original post was :
(QOUTE) : All I can say is that if C4 products are so fragile, avoid them and save yourself a lot of money and heartache.
Personally I will ditch the C4 gun I have along with the fins and never buy their products again.
Your money is better invested in other brands - Back to Omer for me.
In all the years of my diving, this is the worst experience I have had with equipment and service.
"C4 you suck!" (QOUTE)
....so it is :"BACK TO OMER FOR ME" ! ....like when you bought the omer simbiox suit ?
https://forums.deeperblue.com/threads/omer-simbiox-beware.94693/#post-880290
(QOUTE) : Got my wife to help and we were sliding the suit off....THEN!!!! The suit ruptured on the seams and the rip spread deeper into the neoprene!!!!!
It started on the join to the loading pad! AAAAARHHHHH!!
Things then got worse....The same thing happened on the pants....high up on the waist where the camo meets the black....rupture and spreads....
On examining other parts of the suit I have discovered the neoprene is rupturing on the joins...
Seriously, this is major bad news... :head(QOUTE)
I think you are overreacting. Shit happens and there isn't too much one can do about it. I'm not sure sending it in, trying a glue job and sending it back would be cost effective either. Normally CS works better when both parties take their time and politely explain their wishes and actions. Looks like both parties can improve on that in this case..
And seriously to the OP; you are overreacting on this and posting several places on it is just silly. By all means stop buying C4 products, but I believe the rest of us can make up our minds without your help..
PS! I've been happy with my C4 Mustangs and I promise to not throw a tantrum if I crack them
And seriously to the OP; you are overreacting on this and posting several places on it is just silly. By all means stop buying C4 products, but I believe the rest of us can make up our minds without your help..
PS! I've been happy with my C4 Mustangs and I promise to not throw a tantrum if I crack them
Does that crack appear on the other side as well or is it just on one side? The are no blade scuffs that I can see and the fin tip is clear of nicks in the crescent shape of the fin terminal end, so the fin blade does not appear to have collected anything in the way of an impact hit. The side rails appear unmarked as well.
Did you send a photo of the whole blade as well as the close-up of the tip damage?
Did you send a photo of the whole blade as well as the close-up of the tip damage?
If you grab a very long fin by the extreme tip and pull it up out of a storage bin with other dive stuff sitting on top then you can bend the extreme tip without deflecting the rest of the blade as the balance of the fin body cannot easily follow. Such localized stress will not do for a long plastic blade, but it may be enough to surface crack a resin blade.
Years ago I cracked a C4 Falcon, close to the srews where the blade was fixed to the footpockets. Things were clear (material failure), and C4 replaced them without any hesitation. Rather, the material of the new fins was better than that of the old ones (t700 instead to t300). I still use them without trouble, both in the sea and in the pool - where you always bump them a bit (during turns).
Without going into any customer service issues one way or the other, I do have a comment on the fin durability issue from my experiences making fins.
A strong fin, and a fin that performs well, are not the same (at least not when it's made from carbon fiber composite material). A fin that performs well will have a fragile end to the fin blade. Drop a scuba tank on it, or step on it, and it will be likely to break. A fin with a strong end that is more likely to survive that type of banging will not be nearly as efficient in the water.
If you want a fin with both performance and durability, another material choice should be considered. This is one reason why I'm not a fan of carbon fiber fins. I think it is possible to have both performance and durability, but not from pure carbon fiber. Other materials must be considered.
PS - The banging and driving over the flat fin blade in the videos above is designed to not really stress the material. It's basically stressing the material in compression (even water is strong in pure compression). Bend it in a way that oil-cans the material and it will likely crack. Support the fin on the edges by side rails, or some other raised feature, and then banged or stressed to deform it with a non-linear curve, and material failure will be the likely outcome. These materials are brittle in shear and weak across the laminates. Composites are only strong along the length of the fibers.
A strong fin, and a fin that performs well, are not the same (at least not when it's made from carbon fiber composite material). A fin that performs well will have a fragile end to the fin blade. Drop a scuba tank on it, or step on it, and it will be likely to break. A fin with a strong end that is more likely to survive that type of banging will not be nearly as efficient in the water.
If you want a fin with both performance and durability, another material choice should be considered. This is one reason why I'm not a fan of carbon fiber fins. I think it is possible to have both performance and durability, but not from pure carbon fiber. Other materials must be considered.
PS - The banging and driving over the flat fin blade in the videos above is designed to not really stress the material. It's basically stressing the material in compression (even water is strong in pure compression). Bend it in a way that oil-cans the material and it will likely crack. Support the fin on the edges by side rails, or some other raised feature, and then banged or stressed to deform it with a non-linear curve, and material failure will be the likely outcome. These materials are brittle in shear and weak across the laminates. Composites are only strong along the length of the fibers.
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I can't say for fins I have c4 skorpio and it's been good to me for 3 years I even walk on them. Though I had order C4 Graphite before and It arrived damaged since usps is the only service I have and they're bad at handling your package. Anyways I contact C4 and they said it's my fault and the warranty is not covered because it was damaged during transport. For a $1200 gun to have the front rail came in cracked and then tell your customer it's their fault is a bad business practice. I went and order a Bleutec and was very happy with the gun and shoots way better than C4
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Have a look at FreeDivers Carbon Pro. We haven't had a broken blade in over 2yrs since we launched this model.
This thread is about fins, however carbon fiber impregnated materials while strong are not indestructible, and everything has a breaking point. Perhaps carbon fin blades should be separately flat packed with their foot pockets rather than assembled as you can do that yourself. Similarly integral carbon fiber body band guns could have their metal parts, other than the trigger mechanism, detached and later be assembled by you as then leverage points are largely eliminated, although packing a "Mr Dark" seems to me very problematic. Here is the main problem. Many years ago dive gear was purchased over the shop counter and the goods were already vetted by the shop owner who sent damaged products back to the supplier before you even saw them. As a middleman that in a sense was what he was being paid for. Now the customer is both middleman and end user, so the purchasing experience has changed, and with it the risks. Now as soon as something is delivered I inspect and photograph it and check it for problems using a date and time stamped setting on my camera, including the package before even opening it. Then one can speak with some evidence rather than just personal assertions. If you look at my "Pelengas" pneumatic speargun thread then you can see just that, only I cropped off the date and time stamp information on most of my photos.
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