Avoid C4 - New fins cracked - no support from C4

[Steve Zissou]

I like to do my research before spending my hard earned cheddar. C4 was high on the list but the breaks back in the day was a concern.. and a common theme, poor customer service / attitude.
This thread was interesting when Nata turned up from C4. She really just reinforced this theme - nice to see it first hand. I understand the blade could have broken through diver error - but ya have to take a look - if he had all the documentation and the blades were in great shape besides from the crack .. it could have been handled far better.

Anyway - Nata, your responses on this form lost a customer.
Unless anyone can chime in with the latest experiences with the company 2019. I'd be very interested and hopeful they have changed the way customer service is handled. Also product reliability ?? Any current reoccurring issues ??

All best everyone. It was a constructive read - great thread.

 

[marco15499]

I can't talk about C4 customer service because I've never needed it, but I can say that I've used C4's for 15 years 3 times a week until the resin came off and you could see the fabric "filaments" coming out from all the scratches due to rocks and wrecks. They are good fins. Period.
And I also think that the crack on Darryll fins was his fault after seeing the picture. I think Natalia him saved some money avoiding all the shipping back and forth, because at the end, that shouldn't be covered by any warranty.

Another different thing is if she wanted to give away one (or two) blades. But with his approach, I wouldn't...

BTW, you can't repair carbon blades permantly. They will eventually come appart after some use.

 

[popgun pete]

It is a pretty unusual flaw given no sign of any other damage, although the "customer is not always right" bad news travels faster than good news, so it may have been better to quietly fix or replace it, as "mud" always sticks. Some C4 guns have had a few rough edges and although maybe not typical such items can kill reputations. It is called “public relations” for good reason.

As I said earlier it looks like the tip was pulled up at an angle, such as dragging a fin by the tip out from under of a pile of other dive gear. Clipping the end of the blade on a submerged rock should have scuffed the fin, but otherwise there is not a mark on it, including the extreme blade tip and rail ends.

 

[Darryll]

I can't talk about C4 customer service because I've never needed it, but I can say that I've used C4's for 15 years 3 times a week until the resin came off and you could see the fabric "filaments" coming out from all the scratches due to rocks and wrecks. They are good fins. Period.
And I also think that the crack on Darryll fins was his fault after seeing the picture. I think Natalia him saved some money avoiding all the shipping back and forth, because at the end, that shouldn't be covered by any warranty.

Another different thing is if she wanted to give away one (or two) blades. But with his approach, I wouldn't...

BTW, you can't repair carbon blades permantly. They will eventually come appart after some use.

Hey Marco,

With all respect, so judging by a picture you can tell it was "my fault"...seriously? No explanation?

My approach?
You mean contacting the retailer, offering to post it at my expense, then contacting C4 and them not even wanting to see the fin?
Not because I wanted a freebie, or an apology, or that I expected it to be replaced free of charge...I actually hoped they would examine it to determine the cause for their own product research etc...repair if warranty covered it etc.

This had absolutely nothing to do with "the customer being right", but it came down to poor service that pushed me over the edge and hence my origional post here, which I stand by.

I too have had other brands as well that I have used over the years without issue, hence my concern, which could very well have been from a material/manufacture failure, which believe it or not, actually can happen.

So as a comparison, I have a Rob Allen railgun bought a good few years ago...
During a trip the reel cracked (2 years old) but was still 100% functional (could have been during transportation or in the white water we were diving, I have no idea)...anyhow, I needed to replace the bands on the gun and happened to be in Durban, South Africa - where RA is located. I went to the shop to have new rubbers fitted
I picked my gun up a few hours later fitted with a new handle, new reel, sharpened spear...

I was told the handles had been recalled a few years before and the reel would be sent for testing, so they were replaced free of charge. Spear sharpened just because it's good service.

Will I buy RA again? Yes, because they gave a crap.

I think, you like C4 miss the point here...it's all about customer service (not to be confused with the customer is always right, simpleton answer).
Most people work hard for their money and want to feel that the vendor appreciates their custom. I'd also like to know that the vendor is intent on improving and would therefore want to examine damaged products for R&D (irrespective of the cause of the damage).

For my part, this issue does not even have a monetary value, it's purely customer relations.

Why the comment about being given a free blade? "Another different thing is if she wanted to give away one (or two) blades"
You think I wanted a freebie? Get real man, I lost more money writing this reply, than a pair of fins cost.

So please, before you make unfounded comments like the one you did, have a think.
And if you have a sensible comment to make, please feel free, I received numerous great tips on how to fix the crack, but by slinging mud a couple years after the original post is not constructive.

 

[marco15499]

Not your fault per se, but not a manufacturing defect.

The tips of the fins are not exposed to any stress, but is where the blades are thinner, thus more fragile. If you hit that with a rock or wreck or if it get caught in a crevice, or if someone while transporting does a weird flexion to them, they will crack. I think that Natalia saw what I see. It made no sense to have the fin shipped there to see the same thing in person. Maybe it wasn't your fault, but the airline personnel, but not a manufacturer's defect in my opinion.

Sorry if I sounded rude in my first comment. English is not my first language and sometimes I can't express what I really mean while wiriting.

Rob Allen guns are great, simple, tough guns, but if you consider their cost of manufacturing (two pieces of injected polymer and an alluminum pipe, all mass produced) and their volume of sales, they have enough margin to give away some more things than others.

On the other hand, some manufacturers deal different than others; my son had the very same failure in a carbon fin (from another manufacturer) and I wrote them to purchase just one blade (I sent the picture of it). He told me that because they were made in couples, it would be impossible to have one made to match the remaining one. and he decided to give me free of cost a brand new pair of blades. I ended buying another pair for me. But that was because HE wanted to give the blades away and that made ME buy an additional pair at full cost. If he made me buy a pair for my son, I would've done it. Or maybe not. But I knew it was my son fault and would've not try to give them bad reputation in public forums or social media. They did nothing wrong in my opinion.

I work in sales, and I don't like when a customer is trying to fool me. Maybe it wasn't your case, but it was what it looked like.

This being said, clear waters to you and great fish! Hope you're happy with your Omers, which is a brand I decided not to buy anything from...

 

[Darryll]

Not going to keep going here as it would never end...but it's clear you know more than the rest of us and it was only you who thought "I was trying to fool C4"...no one else.

Maybe not the case, but it looks like you "work" for C4 and are trying to salvage something from their clearly appalling responses on this thread...or why else bring it back to life after two years?

 

[HLanger1955]

I'm afraid that's going to become a "C4" bashing campaign...

 

[popgun pete]

I would be interested in seeing the other side of the blade and an end on view of the tip if that is still possible. One thing that I have learned is that when all else fails add more information by making a more thorough examination. If the side that we see the crack on was flexed and overstretched then what happened on the other side where it was compressed? Also the tip end would show some scuffs.

The question is whether this crack was there and you never noticed it from the very beginning, or did it appear after some use and you only noticed it with the fin wet and out in the open with strong sunlight? I have had gear which exhibited a scratch, but when I checked back on an unpacking photo it was there from the very beginning, I just did not notice it. Nothing to complain about as it was just cosmetic damage, but mention it here to illustrate that flaws can be missed until the item receives more attention when you inspect it as the result of a recent collision or impact. If it was delivered like that then you have a complaint, but if it occurred a lot later, say after multiple dives, then the fin struck something and was over flexed at the extreme tip.

 

[popgun pete]

Just had a look at their revamped website.
FINS: LAMINATION, ELASTIC PERFORMANCE AND RESISTANCE.
Fins should not soften energy, they should take it to the highest possible level.
In order to achieve this, C4 uses a lamination of the longitudinal fibre so as to connect the energy source (the foot) directly with the portion assigned to transform energy into water movements (the blade). The cross fibres present in the fabrics are used to provide the blade with necessary solidity for the use that it is destined for, including mistreatment, something that is always possible. The C4 blades have been made for 20 years with a mixed lamination of fabrics and one-way fabrics. The amounts of fabrics and one-way fabrics depend on the models and level of rigidity desired.
A lamination that includes fibres at 45° compared with the centre line of the blade, neutralises the majority of the elastic performance as it does not use the main characteristic of the fibre, that is to say its resistance to pressure subject to strength. At 45° compared with the direction of the strength, they do not connect the stress points therefore they work partially.

BREAKAGES.
Everything has a beginning, including breakage of composite blades and this begins when a yarn that forms the fabric breaks. The larger the yarns that form the fabric, the greater is the resistance of the blades to the start of the fracture. Blades made with large yarn fabrics such as C4, require stress values that are much higher than the blades made using thin yarns for the start of breakage. These values of resistance to the start of breakage are directly proportional to the size of the yarn. The thick yarn used by C4 is 3.5 times larger compared with the thin yarns of our competitors and this is added to the effect of greater resistance of T700 (+40%) resulting in our blades having a theoretical resistance to the start of breakage five times higher compared with corresponding blades made in T300 carbon with thin yarns.
FINS ANGLE.
The bending angle of the C4 blades is currently 29°. This extremely important factor results in the homogeneity of the backward and forward fin movements that, with smaller angles, cannot be achieved. We started to make carbon blades with an angle of 17° in 1990 and then we moved on to 20°, then 22°, then 25° and now 29°. We are very well aware of the effect o the angle on the fin movement, our history proves that we have been studying this since 1990. We went further. Our Mustang anatomical shoes, that we use on our main models, are preformed to 3°. Therefore we currently have an angle between the foot and the blade for these fins of 32°.
All of theC4 blades are angled but do not have a clear bend, but a wide curve. We were the first in 1993 to use this wide shape. This wide curve reduces any non-uniformity in shape, resulting in a homogeneous bending of the entire blade, from the heel to the tip and not only of the front portion. In this way breakages are reduced as stress is divided over a larger portion and increases elastic performance.

 

[PoseidonSv]

Interresting when C4 got feedback from customers that the fin blades have many small bubble pinholes in the resin and customers ask about this the reply is that this is normal and nothing to worry about. If I was C4 i would take the finns back sand them and then recoat them make sure Surface is smooth and nice. Is like it you but a car and the paintjob is all orange peel like you would probably complain right? Would you be OK that the car salesman just clam it does not affect the performance. I Think C4 wuith the broken blade could have offered a new blade which the customer pay with some discount so noone is unhappy or at a loss and problem solved and saving on just one way shipping.

I deal with manufacturers and I love when they offer help and ask me to pay for it because they should not pay for replacing parts that cracked or was destroyed by bad luck or use.

C seems very defencive in the 2 year warranty and not giving any inch of help beyond that. They should ask customer and offer some help i Think and in many cases even ask for a fee for this.

 

[popgun pete]

This is a brand new C4 speargun in a shop which was evidently deemed good enough to let out..

 

[Kodama]

This is a brand new C4 speargun in a shop which was evidently deemed good enough to let out..
View attachment 54126

I have seen such a pictures before from C4 guns. Makes me feel pretty good about the Sigalsub Team Carbon gun I bought. A better finish I would say, at least when it comes down to the finish epoxy layer.

 

[HLanger1955]

Probably, as a customer in a shop I'd simply not accept the delivered object....If ordered online it may get a nasty issue, however.

 

[popgun pete]

Either standards have dropped or QA is not doing its job or output has increased and given time constraints it is not possible to maintain a perfect finish while meeting the increased demand.

 

[J Campbell]

That gun looks used

 

[popgun pete]

That gun looks used

It is (or was) in a shop in Asia and is brand new. Here is another photo.

 

[HLanger1955]

I wonder whether a dealer should reject such a delivery instead of trying to sell it to some fool. C4 could certainly argue that the material was not delivered by them in such conditions but was damaged during transport or indeed used.

 

[popgun pete]

The latter mark is caused by cutting edge chatter as the planing tool skips over the surface and is a result of trying to fettle the joint line on the gun, it is not an impact scratch. Whoever did it was not very adept and was also a bit rough in fettling the trigger mechanism pocket. It is just careless detail work which should have been picked up at inspection. This sort of mark would not worry me, but for the selling price you would think such defects were not very desirable. There were others like this one, but the shop owner was probably glad to just have stock in that part of the world.

 

[PoseidonSv]

And C4 reply is probable that this is normal manufacture finish and does not affect the performance whatsoever.

I suggest they start have a touch up finish inspection on all finished Products Before releasing them for sale.

This is not a garage Company and even smaller makers of special carbon finns and guns care more for the look and final touch quality inspection than C4 does,

Just to be clear I do love C4 Products and love when the quality is great but would be equally dissapointed when or if i recieve substandard Equipment from them.

And when I tried to have dialogue with C4 about a friend that bought finblades with holes in the coating they dodged it completely no response whatsoever.

This is example of the worst anti-promotion for a brand I say.

 

[PoseidonSv]

Natalia does not work for C4 anymore, try Contact infosales@C4carbon.com is information C4 gave me whan I called them