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Best gun of 2007?
- Thread starterTolga
- Start date
Thread Status: Hello
, There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
Pastor, thanks for the response. I'm not quite sure I get what you mean: Are they laminated on a bladder mandrel which is then inflated in a closed mould? Or are they laminated in a female mould and the two halves joined? As far as I know F1 monocoques are essentially laminated in female moulds in two halves, under bag vacuum and autoclave pressure, and then the two halves are bonded together.
About the materials: I presume they're using prepreg tapes. Any idea about the laminate schedule?
Cheers,
redline
About the materials: I presume they're using prepreg tapes. Any idea about the laminate schedule?
Cheers,
redline
Pastor, the reason I mentioned delamination is that I had one of the early beuchat carbon guns a couple of years back, on which the barrel delaminated almost immediately. The fibres in the delaminated area were completely dry, and had not been impregnated with resin. The clear coat finish hid the defect till it was too late. Clearly in the early days they had some production issues which have obviously been ironed out now.
The reason I'm asking is that although i'd love to buy a Mr Carbon or Trygon, the production processes are tricky and innovative. As these are relatively small companies, and I'm sure they don't have big R&D budgets, I'm a little concerned that the first generation customers would be unknowingly partaking in the development... Which is kind of risky considering the not insignificant $$$ these guns cost.
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The reason I'm asking is that although i'd love to buy a Mr Carbon or Trygon, the production processes are tricky and innovative. As these are relatively small companies, and I'm sure they don't have big R&D budgets, I'm a little concerned that the first generation customers would be unknowingly partaking in the development... Which is kind of risky considering the not insignificant $$$ these guns cost.
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Mr carbon is not the first gun made by C4 they had the monoscocca before which never caused any problems i heard of before, besides they are the leading band in carbon fins and also produce bikes, so im pretty sure they know what theyre doing...
i cant say much for trygons, i know they made the sled that herebert nitche is using for the no limits world record....as for their gun, i cant speak about its performance because i never tried it..but i dont like the idea that the reel is a molded part of the gun...i dont use reels that often ( i removed it from my mr carbon) but thats not an option with trygons
i cant say much for trygons, i know they made the sled that herebert nitche is using for the no limits world record....as for their gun, i cant speak about its performance because i never tried it..but i dont like the idea that the reel is a molded part of the gun...i dont use reels that often ( i removed it from my mr carbon) but thats not an option with trygons
Well the Mr.Carbon has been on the market for one year and a half so far, and they have sold a lot of them at least here in Italy, with no complaint, problems or defective parts reported. Users are no less than enthusiast.
Also in competitions they've been doing great: the 2006 Italian national Championship and the 2006 Spearfishing Champions' League have been won by guys using Mr.Carbons as their main weapon.
What I'm trying to say is that the gun has now been widely and successfully tested on the battlefield and are not supposed to give any bad surprise.
By the way I'm told that also the new C4 Urukay, a heavier gun designed for blue water, is close to the conclusion of prototype testing fase. Interesting gun too, candidate for the "best gun of 2008 thread"...
Also in competitions they've been doing great: the 2006 Italian national Championship and the 2006 Spearfishing Champions' League have been won by guys using Mr.Carbons as their main weapon.
What I'm trying to say is that the gun has now been widely and successfully tested on the battlefield and are not supposed to give any bad surprise.
By the way I'm told that also the new C4 Urukay, a heavier gun designed for blue water, is close to the conclusion of prototype testing fase. Interesting gun too, candidate for the "best gun of 2008 thread"...
Check out C4 Carbon there's some info there. My knowledge comes from a guy who went to the Trygons factory.
Lots of the older carbon guns delaminated, they used stock carbon fibre tubes that weren't totally suitable for spearguns and certainly not designed for their use. One of the reasons I don't like them, as much as aluminium or wood. I would trust modern guns though, most tubes now are 2mm thick instead of the 1.2mm some were when they were new. Seems like durability has become as important as stiffness! rofl
Lots of the older carbon guns delaminated, they used stock carbon fibre tubes that weren't totally suitable for spearguns and certainly not designed for their use. One of the reasons I don't like them, as much as aluminium or wood. I would trust modern guns though, most tubes now are 2mm thick instead of the 1.2mm some were when they were new. Seems like durability has become as important as stiffness! rofl
Marwan, Spaghetti: Please don't misinterpret my comments... I didn't mean to be skeptical or dismissive of their capabilities. I work with advanced composites so I have a fairly good notion of the potential pitfalls in developing the processes required to manufacture these guns. Its usually a longwinded and hence expensive business, and the technology is still maturing, and problems still arise.
From what you've both said it seems that both Mr Carbon and Trygon are involved in other composite projects, and thats probably where they do a lot of their R&D, developing processes and amortizing costs. Believe me, it would be hard to justify the investment in technology and equipment just to produce a low volume series of guns, which would probably end up being far too expensive if the R&D costs were to be recovered on their sales alone.
Looks like I'm going to have to buy one of these suckers, so I can have a good look at how its made, and perhaps reverse engineer it
Good point about the reel Marwan... that and my patriotic sense will probably steer me towards Mr Carbon. Spaghetti, any idea when they plan to release their bluewater gun? Any details about it?
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From what you've both said it seems that both Mr Carbon and Trygon are involved in other composite projects, and thats probably where they do a lot of their R&D, developing processes and amortizing costs. Believe me, it would be hard to justify the investment in technology and equipment just to produce a low volume series of guns, which would probably end up being far too expensive if the R&D costs were to be recovered on their sales alone.
Looks like I'm going to have to buy one of these suckers, so I can have a good look at how its made, and perhaps reverse engineer it
Good point about the reel Marwan... that and my patriotic sense will probably steer me towards Mr Carbon. Spaghetti, any idea when they plan to release their bluewater gun? Any details about it?redline
Patriotic sense, redline? Sei italiano anche tu?
Ok italian or not, I had quite the impression you could be professionally involved in the carbon fibre industry. Just remind that c4 is on the market of carbon stuff for more than 20 years, in realms that require the TOP of quality: they've been making bikes for teams participating to the Tour de France and Giro d'Italia, fins with which the greatest frerediving legends set their world records (Umberto Pelizzari, Martin Stepanek, Tom Sietas just to name a few) and spearguns used by the world's top spearos (3 times world champion Renzo Mazzarri, Molteni, Ramacciotti, Andreoli, Marwan, Miles...).
Urukay: same handle and trigger of the Mr. C, it's high mass railgun with a bigger barrell, full length rail, the mass is concentarted in the rear near the handle. The muzzle holds up to 3 circular bands kept in line with the shaft by band elevators. I read on Pescasub magazine that 3 prototypes have been tested and given green light by the testers (testers are Molteni, ex member of italian national team, winner of 3 champions' leagues, Rubbini, an engineer, and Andreoli, holder of the IUSAI world record for sailfish).
Pics of the prototype in this old discussion:
http://forums.deeperblue.net/euro-spearguns/67160-new-guns-c4-2.html
Ok italian or not, I had quite the impression you could be professionally involved in the carbon fibre industry. Just remind that c4 is on the market of carbon stuff for more than 20 years, in realms that require the TOP of quality: they've been making bikes for teams participating to the Tour de France and Giro d'Italia, fins with which the greatest frerediving legends set their world records (Umberto Pelizzari, Martin Stepanek, Tom Sietas just to name a few) and spearguns used by the world's top spearos (3 times world champion Renzo Mazzarri, Molteni, Ramacciotti, Andreoli, Marwan, Miles...).
Urukay: same handle and trigger of the Mr. C, it's high mass railgun with a bigger barrell, full length rail, the mass is concentarted in the rear near the handle. The muzzle holds up to 3 circular bands kept in line with the shaft by band elevators. I read on Pescasub magazine that 3 prototypes have been tested and given green light by the testers (testers are Molteni, ex member of italian national team, winner of 3 champions' leagues, Rubbini, an engineer, and Andreoli, holder of the IUSAI world record for sailfish).
Pics of the prototype in this old discussion:
http://forums.deeperblue.net/euro-spearguns/67160-new-guns-c4-2.html
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Ciao Spaghetti... si sono Italiano (trentino) ma vivo/lavoro negli Emirati Arabi da qualche anno.
I did a quick search on C4 and found out about their history and involvement in the racing bicycle business. I should have known! As for for their endorsements in the world of spear diving and freediving ... well, they speak for themselves! Beyond any doubt, these guys know what they're doing!
I also unearthed a whole load of interesting Italian websites, which I had never checked previously, which have great technical content!!! I've just downloaded a whole load of material from Giorgio Dapiran's site on speargun ballistics. It seems that the Italian spearo's are more interested in the technical aspects than their anglophile counterparts. Can't comment on french/spanish/greek spearo's as I can't decipher their websites
I also found a very interesting test of the prototype Urakay on the Bluworld site. Shame its in Italian - I'm sure many on this board would be interested in reading it. No mention of launch date, but presumably Q1 or Q2 of 2008 ... can't wait!
redline
I did a quick search on C4 and found out about their history and involvement in the racing bicycle business. I should have known! As for for their endorsements in the world of spear diving and freediving ... well, they speak for themselves! Beyond any doubt, these guys know what they're doing!
I also unearthed a whole load of interesting Italian websites, which I had never checked previously, which have great technical content!!! I've just downloaded a whole load of material from Giorgio Dapiran's site on speargun ballistics. It seems that the Italian spearo's are more interested in the technical aspects than their anglophile counterparts. Can't comment on french/spanish/greek spearo's as I can't decipher their websites
I also found a very interesting test of the prototype Urakay on the Bluworld site. Shame its in Italian - I'm sure many on this board would be interested in reading it. No mention of launch date, but presumably Q1 or Q2 of 2008 ... can't wait!
redline
Ma guarda un po'...E per i canederli dove ti rifornisci in codesta landa desertica?
It seems we're commenting about guns that cost a mortgage: C4's, Wongs, Trygons. Now what about best guns in the intermediate/human price range?
It seems we're commenting about guns that cost a mortgage: C4's, Wongs, Trygons. Now what about best guns in the intermediate/human price range?
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we should do categories of guns like best of railgun,woodie,bluewater,reef,shore....Another important fact we must consider is the durability of the gun.Im in situations where I throw my guns on rocks etc and my heart would be brokn to see me carbon fiber gun dent or scratch or even crack from constant abuse.I beat my equipment like a slave and it still works flawlessly and thats why I shoot my rabitech.Shot a nice hogfish from 15+ ft yesterday then rammed it under a coralhead and spooked out some lobster for dinner
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Spaghetti: Ormai mi sono abituato alla bistecca di camello ;-) Veramente, torno spesso tra le mie montagne, e quindi faccio il pieno di polenta, canederli, ed un buon teroldego!
Back to guns! I'd argue that "expensive" is relative: If a guns performance is objectively superior, and the cost hence justified, it is not expensive. On the other hand, it would piss me off to pay more for a gun with equal performance to a cheaper rival, solely on the basis of name or looks. Then it becomes expensive.
One thing that hasn't really been mentioned in the context of defining whether a gun is good or not is ease of handling. Frankly for me it is one of the top priorities along with accuracy. Its hard to articulate in words, but in my opinion a gun should almost become an extension of the hunter, so that using it becomes second nature and almost "instinctive". If you're too conscious of the gun in your hand(s) its likely that you're not completely focused on the hunting. It could be that this is particularly important to the less experienced spearo's (like me) but experienced skeet and trap shooters often say the same about when explaining the difference between a great shotgun and an average one...
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Back to guns! I'd argue that "expensive" is relative: If a guns performance is objectively superior, and the cost hence justified, it is not expensive. On the other hand, it would piss me off to pay more for a gun with equal performance to a cheaper rival, solely on the basis of name or looks. Then it becomes expensive.
One thing that hasn't really been mentioned in the context of defining whether a gun is good or not is ease of handling. Frankly for me it is one of the top priorities along with accuracy. Its hard to articulate in words, but in my opinion a gun should almost become an extension of the hunter, so that using it becomes second nature and almost "instinctive". If you're too conscious of the gun in your hand(s) its likely that you're not completely focused on the hunting. It could be that this is particularly important to the less experienced spearo's (like me) but experienced skeet and trap shooters often say the same about when explaining the difference between a great shotgun and an average one...
redline
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Redline e allora mi berrò io un Teroldego alla tua salute! E magari anche una bella graspetta...o due. Tieni duro vecio!
Foxfish i see you point but it's stronger than me: it's my obsession to buy and buy newer and newer toys non-stop (and sell them away when they become not-so-new). But I just couldn't afford to buy the big $ toys so often, he he!
Regarding manouverability, this is surely fundamental for european spearos, both mediterranean and english, while the people who hunt in the Ocean generally prefer heavier guns (from Rob Allens to big blue water telegraph poles), putting power over manouverability.
So we get straight to the point there's no such thing as a universal BEST agreed for all hunting conditions. We'd better discuss the WORST gun of 2007: this could make more sense worldwide.
Foxfish i see you point but it's stronger than me: it's my obsession to buy and buy newer and newer toys non-stop (and sell them away when they become not-so-new). But I just couldn't afford to buy the big $ toys so often, he he!
Regarding manouverability, this is surely fundamental for european spearos, both mediterranean and english, while the people who hunt in the Ocean generally prefer heavier guns (from Rob Allens to big blue water telegraph poles), putting power over manouverability.
So we get straight to the point there's no such thing as a universal BEST agreed for all hunting conditions. We'd better discuss the WORST gun of 2007: this could make more sense worldwide.
I must admit I struggle with this which this or that is best thing. Practically every gun out there will perform within very close measure of each other class for class. I tell you, the biggest factor in making a gun successful is the hunters confidence in it. It doesn't matter how much the thing cost, what matters is that the hunter knows how to hit the mark with it and that can be done with any gun if you take the time to get to know it.
True. Me I still hit fish with an old Sporasub Aspic 75 paid 40 euro: I never miss a shot with it, never really, and guess why? Because I trust it. If you don't trust your gun, if you don't feel self assured with it, it will never shoot straight.
What the hell?! That seatec looks pretty wierd! Do the bands loop around the muzzle and back down the shaft?? Thats a pretty awesome idea... does it translate in practice to more power? What are the disadvantages? The section is obviously deeper at the muzzle, which should affect the tracking... Anything else?
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