Unfortunately I am not allowed to publicly post the information I have recently received. Anyway, let's all hope for the new rules and leave it at that.
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Branko Petrovic 9:20 STA
- Thread starterbalanse
- Start date
Thread Status: Hello
, There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
Unfortunately I am not allowed to publicly post the information I have recently received. Anyway, let's all hope for the new rules and leave it at that.
Erik you are focused at O2 enriched air, true that is the most beneficial way of cheating in static, and free-diving in general. But not even by far the only way.
There are like numerous ways to illegally enhance your results in all pool disciplines and there is no way you will be discovered with standard AIDA doping test, or any other doping test. In free-diving you do not have blood test and you do not have random testing (I was on random doping list in Croatia but urine only).
If you know when you will be tested, you are free to take whatever you want and clean off before test but still have positive effects from doping. Even if you are random testing subject if that test is urine only you can take more or less whatever you want. So this testing that we enforce now, is a joke for someone who wants to cheat, and that is a fact.
And on top of all that list of banned substances is way of date for our sport and you can find more then enough substances beneficial in free-diving that are not on WADA list. So in a way, you can be legally doped.
There are like numerous ways to illegally enhance your results in all pool disciplines and there is no way you will be discovered with standard AIDA doping test, or any other doping test. In free-diving you do not have blood test and you do not have random testing (I was on random doping list in Croatia but urine only).
If you know when you will be tested, you are free to take whatever you want and clean off before test but still have positive effects from doping. Even if you are random testing subject if that test is urine only you can take more or less whatever you want. So this testing that we enforce now, is a joke for someone who wants to cheat, and that is a fact.
And on top of all that list of banned substances is way of date for our sport and you can find more then enough substances beneficial in free-diving that are not on WADA list. So in a way, you can be legally doped.
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Agreed Goran, but I think that as the rules stand, if you wanted to cheat it would make the most sense to dope with enriched air. It just makes such a huge difference to performances, well above what other drugs could provide (I'm speculating here, but what other p.e.d. could change you from a 7 minute diver to a 20 minute diver?). O2 also has no health risks or lingering effects. Makes the performance itself way easy and enjoyable.
Thankfully it's one of the easiest drugs to detect though - O2 monitors should definitely be used. I don't know much about them though - are they reliable and accurate?
Thankfully it's one of the easiest drugs to detect though - O2 monitors should definitely be used. I don't know much about them though - are they reliable and accurate?
Who is going to pay for the establishment of analytical methods for new substances that are not in the present WADA list?
Its also good to be aware that doping substances are forbidden because of health risks and there are no reason to ban compounds that have no potentsial side effects.
Its also good to be aware that doping substances are forbidden because of health risks and there are no reason to ban compounds that have no potentsial side effects.
I hope those new static rules include that record attempts are no longer allowed in small private pools or for the record attempt purpose built pools. Too many possibilities to cheat under those circumstances.
I was useing old sunto spider which had only had dive mode. so I had only total time under water, when hunting fish time is usualy, 50:50, but surface interval include swimming, taking of the fish... big octopus took of that watch, believe or not! now I got d4. total dives are betwen 50 if I do long bottom waiting,or up to 300. when I am hunting octopus. but these are short dives usually from 15 to 25m, with very short interval on surface sometimes just 10 sec. I think this way is the best to move contractions. few days ago I was hunting easily at 30m with 7.5mm suit and 9 kg of weights. I don't know does this help you anything, really. but moveing conractions so far is dangerous. very, sometimes happens to me to have bleck out 30 sec after first contraction. why do not know! If someone have question about fishing, i am musch better in that than in apnea. for me Apnea is just way to be better spearfisherman 
Goran,
I agree with you. But, someone who tries to take an oral doping substance that won't be detected, could do that in a competition as well, no problem. So for such a 'cheater', their performance would be the same either in competition or record attempt. However with O2 it is much more difficult to do in competition (unless you collaborate with the organizer..) In this case your performance in competition and record attempt would be much, much different, since you would only have access to enriched air during the record attempt.
For example, in the current rules, you could organize a record in a small, indoor pool. You could use a machine to increase the oxygen in the entire atmosphere of the *whole room* to 25-30%. You could then remove the machine before the judges arrive. The atmosphere would remain at 25-30% O2. No one would ever know. You would be able to gain many minutes from that. And it would count, no problem. But not with the new rules it won't!
So if you're doing deep & long dives (~4 minutes as you said before), you'd be doing nearly four hours underwater in a day? Also 2 minutes down and 20-30 seconds up (80:20 ratio) when looking for octopus is quite something. Do you have a data cable for your D4? I would be very interested in seeing a dive profile for a days spearfishing.I was useing old sunto spider which had only had dive mode. so I had only total time under water, when hunting fish time is usualy, 50:50, but surface interval include swimming, taking of the fish... big octopus took of that watch, believe or not! now I got d4. total dives are betwen 50 if I do long bottom waiting,or up to 300. when I am hunting octopus. but these are short dives usually from 15 to 25m, with very short interval on surface sometimes just 10 sec. I think this way is the best to move contractions. few days ago I was hunting easily at 30m with 7.5mm suit and 9 kg of weights. I don't know does this help you anything, really. but moveing conractions so far is dangerous. very, sometimes happens to me to have bleck out 30 sec after first contraction. why do not know! If someone have question about fishing, i am musch better in that than in apnea. for me Apnea is just way to be better spearfisherman
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I was useing old sunto spider which had only had dive mode. so I had only total time under water, when hunting fish time is usualy, 50:50, but surface interval include swimming, taking of the fish... big octopus took of that watch, believe or not! now I got d4. total dives are betwen 50 if I do long bottom waiting,or up to 300. when I am hunting octopus. but these are short dives usually from 15 to 25m, with very short interval on surface sometimes just 10 sec. I think this way is the best to move contractions. few days ago I was hunting easily at 30m with 7.5mm suit and 9 kg of weights. I don't know does this help you anything, really. but moveing conractions so far is dangerous. very, sometimes happens to me to have bleck out 30 sec after first contraction. why do not know! If someone have question about fishing, i am musch better in that than in apnea. for me Apnea is just way to be better spearfisherman
Sounds to me like a CO2 schedule to depth.
When would you suggest to come up, when diving from 25 - 15m? (At the first contraction, or await a few before coming up?
Do you think you could have the same result doing such dives daily on the surface in the pool? - or is depth necessary?
With such a short surface interval - lower than generally recommended! - Have you got any problems with too little O2?
Do you dive full lungs, or FRC?
Thanks!
Kars
Indeed incredible and amazing performances. But in the same time, I'd tell that also extremely dangerous diving patterns. Up to 300 dives to 15-25m during 9 hours, with recovery times sometimes of just a few seconds, mixed with deeper dives with 3' (or up to 6') waits at bottom - that's the best ticket for the station Taravana. Divers are often hit by DCS already at much more conservative diving, so it is no big surprise Branko needed to be treated in hospital.
Branko, I advised it to you already privately, but feel obliged doing it here too, to avoid that others try to replicate such diving patterns. They are absolutely crazy and going against the basics of safe diving. No fish and no octopus is worth of your health and of you life. Please be careful, slow down, and take much, much, much longer recovery times between the dives, if you do not want to finish in a rolling chair in a young age!
Branko, I advised it to you already privately, but feel obliged doing it here too, to avoid that others try to replicate such diving patterns. They are absolutely crazy and going against the basics of safe diving. No fish and no octopus is worth of your health and of you life. Please be careful, slow down, and take much, much, much longer recovery times between the dives, if you do not want to finish in a rolling chair in a young age!
somethimes I start dive and still have contractions from previous dive, at first meter. when octopus start escaping, and you just have to dive to get it!
really I do not know would the pool give the same results
litlle O2? mo just my body got used to it, when I do not do practice or divek for few days , my puls drops like 40. and breaths slow down when I am stll to two per minute, when watching the movie ect.
interesting thing is in static my puls drops like 30, but presure got as high as 200/170, i did some EKG in static.
what is frc?
no cable man sorry
plus I left the watch in house in montenego
I'd be interested in seeing something about your dives as your times when spearfishing are double what current world record holders and world champions are doing when spearfishing. The general correlation I seem to have found is that comfortable repeat diving (with at least the same time on the surface between dives) is around a quarter of your max static. For short (10-20 sec) recovery dives for an extended period, that number is around an eighth. Your dive depths and times indicate that you are miles outside of that. In fact I've never seen anyone get to 3:30 when spearfishing, let alone 6:00.
The sheer amount of time you are spending underwater is well in excess of anything I've ever heard of either. In a six hour competition, most divers spend less than an hour underwater in my experience, with the best doing 1:30 or a quarter of the time. I am interested in hearing what you are doing differently.
The sheer amount of time you are spending underwater is well in excess of anything I've ever heard of either. In a six hour competition, most divers spend less than an hour underwater in my experience, with the best doing 1:30 or a quarter of the time. I am interested in hearing what you are doing differently.
spearfishing since I was 10. maybe is that? I do not know really, I know that in Serbia, I am good spear fisher but I newer thought that it is something special really, and I still don't! maybe In other seas fish approaches faster. maybe that is the thing :/ because when I wait dentex, sometimes they approach to see them at 3:20-3:40, sometimes in 5 sec. but times like that makes you wait more and more. almost all AJ i killed was between 3-4 min. I killed some nice gilthead at 20m, dive was 3 min. Dapiran is hunting them from the surface!
I have a friend who is waiting up to 4:45. another over 4. but details I do not know really! I think mifsud had some dives at 50m 4:30 hunting dentex. there is some video...
maybe is genetic thing, do not know, or maybe because I am doing this for six monts every day, each year. for 8 years!
this was shock for me, my 16 years old sister first try ever!!!! did 5:24 static! that is shocking! that is something! (but she is not that interested in apnea) explain this to me! i asked to do it again, like two weeks ago (now she is 19), she did it on land this time. she came to my room caring stop watch. I asked her why are you walking, after she breath out? she said it is easier to suffer contraction this way. she did 5:20. face was grey, lips dark blue! looks scary, but she had smile on her face!
I have a friend who is waiting up to 4:45. another over 4. but details I do not know really! I think mifsud had some dives at 50m 4:30 hunting dentex. there is some video...
maybe is genetic thing, do not know, or maybe because I am doing this for six monts every day, each year. for 8 years!
this was shock for me, my 16 years old sister first try ever!!!! did 5:24 static! that is shocking! that is something! (but she is not that interested in apnea) explain this to me! i asked to do it again, like two weeks ago (now she is 19), she did it on land this time. she came to my room caring stop watch. I asked her why are you walking, after she breath out? she said it is easier to suffer contraction this way. she did 5:20. face was grey, lips dark blue! looks scary, but she had smile on her face!
Well Branko, you're inspiration to me, I think I'll try to start doing daily CO2 tables, and see how that works for me. I'm interested to see how it will affect my comfort range and my personal best later on.
I must agree wit Ivo's remark about safety, decompression is a reality when staying down so long, for so many dives.
FRC diving, stands for Functional Residue Capacity, is diving with less than full lungs, namely 'passive exhale' or something a bit over that. Seals are said to do FRC diving when they do deep dives. Do a search on Deeperblue, and read threads like "FRC for beginners" and see the interesting advantages that this way of diving gives, including reducing the chance of decompression illness.
Like Chrismar I'm also interested in what you do differently.
But I'm also interested in your freediving history, the milestones you went through, the changes you made and the results.
BTW it looks like you have a really nice bodyweight to lung size ratio
Ciao,
Kars
ps, when posting I noticed you just had posted! - it must be a bit genetic, though I am looking for things we can train for
the 5'20" is really good, pitty she doesn't fancy the sport yet! (what is her lung/weight ratio? )
I must agree wit Ivo's remark about safety, decompression is a reality when staying down so long, for so many dives.
FRC diving, stands for Functional Residue Capacity, is diving with less than full lungs, namely 'passive exhale' or something a bit over that. Seals are said to do FRC diving when they do deep dives. Do a search on Deeperblue, and read threads like "FRC for beginners" and see the interesting advantages that this way of diving gives, including reducing the chance of decompression illness.
Like Chrismar I'm also interested in what you do differently.
But I'm also interested in your freediving history, the milestones you went through, the changes you made and the results.
BTW it looks like you have a really nice bodyweight to lung size ratio
Ciao,
Kars
ps, when posting I noticed you just had posted! - it must be a bit genetic, though I am looking for things we can train for
the 5'20" is really good, pitty she doesn't fancy the sport yet! (what is her lung/weight ratio? )
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about sister, she is around 50kg. think about 5l. that is all I know.
i newer do with full lungs because I use long john pants and I newer can fully take a breath.
sometimes when I have little weights for deep diving, and want to do shallow dive i breath out and then dive with almost empty lungs, keep maybe 2l. i was trying last summer something friend told me ( he was safety, to veljano zanki on no limit dives), dives with fully empty lungs and then compensating ears. i menage to get to 20. but I have to tell you lungs hurts! A lot!
i newer do with full lungs because I use long john pants and I newer can fully take a breath.
sometimes when I have little weights for deep diving, and want to do shallow dive i breath out and then dive with almost empty lungs, keep maybe 2l. i was trying last summer something friend told me ( he was safety, to veljano zanki on no limit dives), dives with fully empty lungs and then compensating ears. i menage to get to 20. but I have to tell you lungs hurts! A lot!
only if I find sponsor I am not active during all 6min. it is dive to 15m and waiting for fish. (aspeto) i do not practice dinamic really, technique is tereable and I am really bad comparing to others so i do not force my self. best I did was few years ago 135 dnf took me 4:30. I ' ll will see with Vedrana maybe she has some program for me for dynamic apnea! she helped me to increase static maybe she can do same with dinamic apnea.
I am not active during all 6min. it is dive to 15m and waiting for fish. (aspeto) i do not practice dinamic really, technique is tereable and I am really bad comparing to others so i do not force my self. best I did was few years ago 135 dnf took me 4:30. I ' ll will see with Vedrana maybe she has some program for me for dynamic apnea! she helped me to increase static maybe she can do same with dinamic apnea.I would have to disagree. Herbert's spearfishing dives are 2:30 to 3:30 in 35m to 45m (DCS after 9 dives...)
Davide Carrera doesn't use a gauge, but by all counts his often diving to 50m for 3-4 minutes, and that is without packing!
If I dive with a polespear, my dive time is basically the same as a recreational dive, and I have done repeated 5 minute dives to 15m (7.5mm suit, 10C water), hanging on the bottom, the longest I did was 5'21" (with enough safety margin to ascend safely without a buddy watching directly over me). I have done 3'50" dives to 30m being active most of the dive.... and my static PB is only 8'20". So if Branko can do 10'30" in static, he would be way over those times. In my case I would say my max repeated solo hang time is around 60% of my max static, at least with a 7.5mm suit -- it would be longer with a thinner suit. So if Branko does a 6'00" hang at 15m, I would actually say he is not pushing it and could probably do much longer.
I've caught fish on FRC dives and these dives also were of similar length to dives without a spear gun.
For me, repeated dives to 50m (7.5mm suit) with packing are only about 2'30" in length, and I get DCS after about 5 dives unless I do O2. So DCS is obviously a concern.
Certainly Branko is exceptional but I would say he exceeds other spearfishermen by a modest amount, certainly not double.
Could you do 50 such 5+ minute hangs in a day?
I too can do reasonably long hangs on a line, but that's a different thing to spearfishing. My longest hangs on a line are over four minutes, but my longest spearfishing dive was 2:50 at 37m. In spearfishing, you have lots of dives in a day (Branko was talking about 50-200), often in current and working much harder during and between dives than you would on a line. I've certainly had the privilege of diving with some very good spearos, including three world record holders and a double world champion, but never somebody doing anywhere close to those times for a nine hour day. For one thing, I can't see how you can NOT get bent if you spend four hours underwater at depths down to 30-40m (scuba no-decompression limits at 30 are about 10 minutes?).
I don't really doubt that Branko can do a six minute hang on a line as a once-off or do a few 3-4 minute dives in a day, but that is quite different from what he is claiming. That's why I was interested in seeing a chart of his dives in a day. It's remarkable enough that I would ask for evidence before I take it at face value. I think the ability to do fifty 5+ minute dives in a day is far more amazing and further out there than an 11:30+ static (which is only 10% over what others have done).
I too can do reasonably long hangs on a line, but that's a different thing to spearfishing. My longest hangs on a line are over four minutes, but my longest spearfishing dive was 2:50 at 37m. In spearfishing, you have lots of dives in a day (Branko was talking about 50-200), often in current and working much harder during and between dives than you would on a line. I've certainly had the privilege of diving with some very good spearos, including three world record holders and a double world champion, but never somebody doing anywhere close to those times for a nine hour day. For one thing, I can't see how you can NOT get bent if you spend four hours underwater at depths down to 30-40m (scuba no-decompression limits at 30 are about 10 minutes?).
I don't really doubt that Branko can do a six minute hang on a line as a once-off or do a few 3-4 minute dives in a day, but that is quite different from what he is claiming. That's why I was interested in seeing a chart of his dives in a day. It's remarkable enough that I would ask for evidence before I take it at face value. I think the ability to do fifty 5+ minute dives in a day is far more amazing and further out there than an 11:30+ static (which is only 10% over what others have done).
In 10-16C water, 5-7mm suit, bad vis and a bit of current I typically dive 20-30m with occasional dives down to 40m. Dive times are mostly about 1:45 - 2:00 and top out at approx 2:30. If I did a 4:00 dive in spearfishing conditions (bifins, repeat dives, surface swimming, current, thick suit) I'd have a good chance of blacking out. I would never push that hard on a spearfishing dive.
I've just checked my dives from a recent tropical trip and over a 2 hour period in the warmer water with a thinner suit I was diving 27-38m with dive times between 2:15 and 2:45, surface intervals about 3 minutes.
There is a huge difference between spearfishing and focused, freedive-style hangs. I think spearfishing numbers are often inflated because good and average divers alike tend to reference their very deepest/longest dives, or even their theoretical max, as if it was a routine performance for them.
It makes sense to extrapolate pool/depth performances to predict spearfishing times/depths, at least to some degree. But I think you have to be much more cautious when doing the opposite, because there is no proper measurement system in place for spearfishing performances. It's mostly estimates, hearsay and secondhand reports.
I've just checked my dives from a recent tropical trip and over a 2 hour period in the warmer water with a thinner suit I was diving 27-38m with dive times between 2:15 and 2:45, surface intervals about 3 minutes.
There is a huge difference between spearfishing and focused, freedive-style hangs. I think spearfishing numbers are often inflated because good and average divers alike tend to reference their very deepest/longest dives, or even their theoretical max, as if it was a routine performance for them.
It makes sense to extrapolate pool/depth performances to predict spearfishing times/depths, at least to some degree. But I think you have to be much more cautious when doing the opposite, because there is no proper measurement system in place for spearfishing performances. It's mostly estimates, hearsay and secondhand reports.