BSA MCZ News & Discussion

[Mr. X]

You'd think/hope preservation of fish stocks. But history has shown time and again that commercial fishermen will fish until they exhaust stock (if feeding & housing your family depended on it, what would you do?). Just this weekend I came across a community TV show about some guys visiting locations on the west coast of Scotland. They interviewed a young local artist and he casually listed the various things the local fishermen had fished until exhausted before moving on to the next "victim" species.

 

[artiz]

You'd think/hope preservation of fish stocks. But history has shown time and again that commercial fishermen will fish until they exhaust stock (if feeding & housing your family depended on it, what would you do?). Just this weekend I came across a community TV show about some guys visiting locations on the west coast of Scotland. They interviewed a young local artist and he casually listed the various things the local fishermen had fished until exhausted before moving on to the next "victim" species.

Its a thorny and prescient subject but more importantly (and despite advice from California) I think its time we went our separate negotiating ways? I certainly don't think blame should be laid squarely on commercial fishing though... supply and demand is at the very foundation of our capitalist society and therefore involves both state and individual responsibility regarding the care of our ocean environments... also coming from a coal mining family state aided retraining/further education as far as I'm concerned is statutory?
For me, due to our unique selective, highly sustainable and (mostly) ethical practices our allies should be conservationist ones and the science which supports it... we clearly have much to bring to coastal marine conservation negotiation tables and the sooner the better!

P.S. Like this one (http://www.nwwrac.org/) recently proposed by the BSA Chairman!

 

[BSA]

Response on the MCZ consultation sent to DEFRA:

"This response is made on behalf of the British Spearfishing Association, the UKs national governing body for spearfishing:

We understand and support the need for a network of marine protected areas, supported by appropriate, evidenced and enforceable management measures to promote the conservation and recovery of marine ecosystems. We actively supported the work of the regional projects, particularly Finding Sanctuary where we had a representative on the steering group and dedicated substantial resources mostly in the form of time.

The process of site selection was made particularly difficult due to the delays in the provision of national guidance, the size and nature of that guidance when finally published and the lack of clarity provided on the likely nature of any potential management measures. We believe this continuing lack of clarity on management measures prevented many consumptive users from providing as much information as they possibly could have.

The consultation process itself has been hindered by the complexity of the packages of information included and the way in which the relevant web pages have been used to display and link to them. As such, it favours input by larger organisations with dedicated staff resources and precludes the contribution by many stakeholders who may be affected by the implementation of the proposed MCZ, regardless of whether they wish to voice support for, or opposition to, any sites. The language used within the Site Summary tables should have included clearer explanations of the feature names to enable non-specialists to understand and interpret the data. If a public consultation is to be meaningful and inclusive, every effort should be made to make it accessible to the public, and to make it clear exactly what the results of the proposals being consulted on will be. There is clearly still a great deal of confusion amongst stakeholders about exactly what MCZs are intended to be, and what activities are likely to be restricted within them.

Having been involved in the process from the start, we have proceeded on the assumption that spearfishing will not be prohibited in non reference areas. On this basis we broadly support the areas proposed within this first tranche, but have the following reservations;

We would question whether the proposed number of sites is extensive enough to have any significant positive impact on the UK marine environment.

We do not feel that that displacement of towed gear effort from proposed MCZs has been fully considered. We are concerned that some of this displaced effort may go into increased static gear fishing, particularly for non quota species such as bass which are of particular interest to our members.

We do not believe that designating a small percentage of UK waters as MCZs is any kind of substitute for the proper management of UK fish stocks to benefit all stakeholders.

We support the Kingmere Rocks MCZ, but are concerned that Black bream have been included in the designation, as they are a mobile species, and were also not included in the species/habitat lists issued to the regional projects."

 

[Robbo66]

Hi Mike



3. "Exactly why are competitions so important to the BSA and how does this benefit spearfishing in the UK?"
Competition is the common social bond that has been instrumental in starting and maintaining the association since its founding in 1958. I really don't want this turning into another competition debate though as its been done to death on this and other forums and neither side will convince the other so I don't want it to detract from the purpose of why we started this thread.

Best Regards
Kevin

I haven't posted on DB for a while, as many others but felt after a superb post from Broseidon, I wanted to reiterate my own views on the utter incomprehension of the abhorrent 'spearo competiton'.

It is by nature, utterly indefensible and contradicts all that the BSA should stand for, if their goal is to allow spearfishing to continue in the UK.

I realise you don't want this 'turning into another competiton debate' , judging by your refusal to state one positive message/function they offer.
I can see why many consider the BSA hypocritical and contradictory in their views on sustainable, ethical spear fishing.

 

[Yeti]

Mods delete this probably inflamatory? (is that how you spell it?) comment at your leisure but after much deliberation on what to say about that comment...........i came up with.....yaaaaaaaawn! .......................................................................................oh sorry to keep you waiting, that WAS the word.

 

[artiz]

I haven't posted on DB for a while, as many others but felt after a superb post from Broseidon, I wanted to reiterate my own views on the utter incomprehension of the abhorrent 'spearo competiton'.

It is by nature, utterly indefensible and contradicts all that the BSA should stand for, if their goal is to allow spearfishing to continue in the UK.

I realise you don't want this 'turning into another competiton debate' , judging by your refusal to state one positive message/function they offer.
I can see why many consider the BSA hypocritical and contradictory in their views on sustainable, ethical spear fishing.

Although I very much agree with Robbo's sentiments here... to keep you all on your toes... I also think it prudent to express some respect for the progress that has been made by the BSA in the last few months - well done the BSA!
However that 'elusive middle ground' mentioned in a previous post by the BSA is still some way off despite their latest and somewhat commendable announcement/efforts above? The BSA appears to have listened to some of Broseidons (and others) concerns and yet clearly they still have a long way yet to go?

The/any competitive aspect of spearfishing really has no place anywhere on the publicly accessible areas of the BSA web site... why can't the BSA at the very least put anything/everything regarding competitions in the new Members Only area? The BSA's public profile is key! As Broseidon has previously pointed out... despite some progress the BSA publicly stating support for ethical spearfishing "is like McDonalds promoting healthy eating or supporting a vegan charity..." - the hypocrisy is quite frankly laughable as well as being acutely embarrassing for many you purport to represent?

Why is the BSA controlling committee still completely dominated by competitive spearo's? Further progress is critical here so some/half of you really should stand down for at least the possibility of a future for ethical spearfishing in the UK?

The BSA must now enter into 'real' discussion with points of view similar to Robbo's above... as you probably know by now they are more likely than not held by the silent majority?

I do realise that some of my comments here are particularly hard-hitting again rather than being more supportive/moderate but the BSA is quite probably the only way forward if we stand any chance of maintaining some form of 'freedom' regarding spearfishing in the UK over the next few critical years.
Once again please don't be offended and defensive... the BSA is obviously making progressive headway in changing for the benefit of all UK spearo's and your continuing and genuine recent efforts are sincerely and very much appreciated by me (and hopefully others too?)... please just keep going... you clearly know it makes sense!

 

[Yeti]

Offtopic:

Poilitiks and personal opinion aside but human nature at the fore, it is probably safe assumption to say 'domination' is actually longevity by motivated, passionate, and 'actively organising' and doing stuff type of folk......who merely happen to be 'competitive spearos'??

Back on topic:

Thanks for taking the time and keeping us informed.

 

[speardaver]

The BSA must now enter into 'real' discussion with points of view similar to Robbo's above... as you probably know by now they are more likely than not held by the silent majority?

Artiz,

i'm pretty sure more than half of the BSA committee would love the option to stand down, just need members at the AGM popping their hands up to volunteer at the election of officers time!!!

I sat on the committe for the past few years and once you get on there the difficult bit is finding someone to take the job off your hands!!

D.

 

[kkdavids]

Will second what Yeti and Speardaver say above, having sat on the committee for a few years in different roles, its very difficult to find people who have the time and motivation to sit on the committee. There are far too many people saying what should be done, without actually offering help to do something about it.
Putting a few posts on a forum slagging off people who are actually trying to help spearfishing in the country isnt really being productive is it? Lets have more productive helpers rather than armchair helpers

 

[Robbo66]

Will second what Yeti and Speardaver say above, having sat on the committee for a few years in different roles, its very difficult to find people who have the time and motivation to sit on the committee. There are far too many people saying what should be done, without actually offering help to do something about it.
Putting a few posts on a forum slagging off people who are actually trying to help spearfishing in the country isnt really being productive is it? Lets have more productive helpers rather than armchair helpers

I/we are not simply 'slagging off' as you put it. We are simply pointing out that due to the BSA's obvious promotion of 'Competitions', they are seen by the vast majority of Spearo's to be in total contradiction of what they are attempting to stand for, 'ethical sustainable spearfishing'.
DEFRA and any other organisation looking to ban spearfishing will simply blow the BSA's position out of the sight by highlighting these 'competitions'.
What 'help' do you need here ?. We are asking you to consider dropping the 'competitions' from the BSA's public agenda and reduce admin/work, and by the same token improving the BSA's PR and standing immediately.
What part of that can you possibly not understand ?.

 

[artiz]

Will second what Yeti and Speardaver say above, having sat on the committee for a few years in different roles, its very difficult to find people who have the time and motivation to sit on the committee. There are far too many people saying what should be done, without actually offering help to do something about it.
Putting a few posts on a forum slagging off people who are actually trying to help spearfishing in the country isnt really being productive is it? Lets have more productive helpers rather than armchair helpers

Considering your inclusion on the BSA sub-committee where I volunteered my interest, time and perspective, together with an ethical statement for discussion I find your comments here somewhat confusing... and even more so when you consider that I also joined, as a paid member, an organisation with which I fundamentally, morally and ethically disagreed with?
I was under the impression that I had very much tried to be 'productive' but my enthusiastic efforts were totally rejected out-of-hand by 2 controlling BSA committee members... with one of them telling me that he 'disagreed with everything I say'... not a good start to any discussion? You certainly did not support me then either so perhaps I shouldn't be surprised at your contradictory comments above?
If the BSA continues to listen and accommodate other perspectives regarding ethical spearfishing practices the membership will continue to grow presenting further interested members prepared to dedicate their time to an organization which does actually represent ethical spearfishing in the UK rather than just unethical competitive spearfishing... now that would be productive?
Change is never easy but nevertheless the future of spearfishing in the UK now rests firmly on the BSA's willingness and commitment to do so?

 

[kkdavids]

Considering your inclusion on the BSA sub-committee where I volunteered my interest, time and perspective, together with an ethical statement for discussion I find your comments here somewhat confusing... and even more so when you consider that I also joined, as a paid member, an organisation with which I fundamentally, morally and ethically disagreed with?
I was under the impression that I had very much tried to be 'productive' but my enthusiastic efforts were totally rejected out-of-hand by 2 controlling BSA committee members... with one of them telling me that he 'disagreed with everything I say'... not a good start to any discussion? You certainly did not support me then either so perhaps I shouldn't be surprised at your contradictory comments above?

If the BSA continues to listen and accommodate other perspectives regarding ethical spearfishing practices the membership will continue to grow presenting further interested members prepared to dedicate their time to an organization which does actually represent ethical spearfishing in the UK rather than just unethical competitive spearfishing... now that would be productive?
Change is never easy but nevertheless the future of spearfishing in the UK now rests firmly on the BSA's willingness and commitment to do so?

Not sure if 'you' was aimed at me or not, as im not aware of any such discussion that i personally attended...As you put it 'If the BSA continues to listen and accommodate other perspectives', sounds like things are going in the right direction so we should try and keep this positive way of working going!

 

[kkdavids]

I/we are not simply 'slagging off' as you put it. We are simply pointing out that due to the BSA's obvious promotion of 'Competitions', they are seen by the vast majority of Spearo's to be in total contradiction of what they are attempting to stand for, 'ethical sustainable spearfishing'.
DEFRA and any other organisation looking to ban spearfishing will simply blow the BSA's position out of the sight by highlighting these 'competitions'.
What 'help' do you need here ?. We are asking you to consider dropping the 'competitions' from the BSA's public agenda and reduce admin/work, and by the same token improving the BSA's PR and standing immediately.
What part of that can you possibly not understand ?.

Help im referring to is the running of the association, ie being a part of the BSA and helping! Your point about DEFRA/fisheries etc 'blowing our position out of sight ' due to highlighting competitions - We work with these authorities providing details of catches etc, and you will find they have more concern with whats not being recorded ie personal fishing (which will be a far higher amount of fish caught compared to competitions)


'What part of that can you possibly not understand ?' - Just a touch sarcastic!

 

[headhunter]

Just out of interest, Robbo and Artiz, did you respond to the DEFRA MCZ consultation?

 

[Robbo66]

Help im referring to is the running of the association, ie being a part of the BSA and helping! Your point about DEFRA/fisheries etc 'blowing our position out of sight ' due to highlighting competitions - We work with these authorities providing details of catches etc, and you will find they have more concern with whats not being recorded ie personal fishing (which will be a far higher amount of fish caught compared to competitions)


'What part of that can you possibly not understand ?' - Just a touch sarcastic!

You mean be part of an organisation which openly promotes competitions ?.
No thanks.
So DEFRA support these competitions do they, and have no concerns ?, and you feel that they offer a positive message as regards ethical, sustainable spear fishing ?.

 

[Robbo66]

Just out of interest, Robbo and Artiz, did you respond to the DEFRA MCZ consultation?

No. We had a serious issue a couple of years back when we were looking at a total ban in South Wales. The competition issue proved a nightmare, and hindered our efforts from the outset. Not responded to the particular consultation.

 

[artiz]

Just out of interest, Robbo and Artiz, did you respond to the DEFRA MCZ consultation?

With 3 different methods:

• By being a member of the BSA
• By being a member of another ethical organisation
• On an individual basis

If you look back through this thread I provided a direct link to the DEFRA form so that others could too..... what about you?

 

[headhunter]

With 3 different methods:

• By being a member of the BSA
• By being a member of another ethical organisation
• On an individual basis

If you look back through this thread I provided a direct link to the DEFRA form so that others could too..... how about you?

how about you post your responses here?

 

[artiz]

how about you post your responses here?

How about you answer the question?

 

[Mr. X]

It was inevitable that this day would come - hi Robbo66:wave
FYI The forum staff are actively monitoring this thread. Please keep it friendly/respectful.

• 
  ...
• By being a member of another ethical organisation
  ...

Hi artiz, which org is that?