Ethics of hunting

[johan denmark]

If people want to eat farmed fish is their own choice but

The lower omega 3 ratio comes from using plant oil to replace some of the fish oil. So you raise a salmon on a fish and plant oil diet instead off strict fish oil diet. This is good beacuse that leeds to less use off industrial fish meal and oil.
Even farmed fish is still very high in omega 3 and much better than chicken or cow meat that has none omega 3

The use off antibiotics comes from the 80´s where that where indeed a very high use of antibiotics due to problems with furunkulosis. But the introduction of vaccinations have erraded this problem and the fish industri now is that meat industri thats use the less amount off medicine compared to example chickens or pigfarming.

Net pens in the ocean do emmit nutrients that leed to eathrophication. But one can avoid this by buing fishes from land based fish farming.

 

[wet]

If people want to eat farmed fish is their own choice but

The lower omega 3 ratio comes from using plant oil to replace some of the fish oil. So you raise a salmon on a fish and plant oil diet instead off strict fish oil diet.

This is funny. In Peru, people catch anchovetta, separate fish oil from the fish meal, the fish meal sold to livestock (cattle) farmers for high protein food, so the savanna ungulate cows are becoming piscivorous (fish-eating), while the ocean farmed salmon are being fed land plant oil instead of fish oil so becoming granivorous/bean eaters. What a strange world we live in.
DDeden

This is good beacuse that leeds to less use off industrial fish meal and oil.
Even farmed fish is still very high in omega 3 and much better than chicken or cow meat that has none omega 3

The use off antibiotics comes from the 80´s where that where indeed a very high use of antibiotics due to problems with furunkulosis. But the introduction of vaccinations have erraded this problem and the fish industri now is that meat industri thats use the less amount off medicine compared to example chickens or pigfarming.

Net pens in the ocean do emmit nutrients that leed to eathrophication. But one can avoid this by buing fishes from land based fish farming.

 

[Robbo66]

Spearing with Scuba is right up there with spearfishing competitions and the traditional public car park 'weigh in' following...........perhaps this is why, on some occasions, I am challenged by the general public on my way out to spear.

I simply agree that both the above are indefensible

 

[Mr. X]

...industrial fish meal and oil.
Even farmed fish is still very high in omega 3 and much better than chicken or cow meat that has none omega 3

Hi Johan, it is good to hear things are improving. I forgot one other thing that puts me off farmed fish, which you referred to: the use of feed taken destructively from the sea bed. Which also accounts for the other issue that came out a couple of years ago - radioactive farmed salmon. Apparently they were being fed food taken from the bed of the Irish sea -- presumably polluted from decades of Windscale/Sellarfield leaks & overflows.

Oh, I almost forgot about the use of articificial colouring to make salmon less pale...I think there is still quite some way to go. On the otherhand, salmon is much cheaper & more widely available than in the past.

[Devonshire "Good Oil", made from flax is another good source of Omega 3. Apparently hunted meat (rather than farmed raised) is also a good source. Some chicken eggs claim to contain it too -- something to do with their diet.]

Robbo, like Galahad, probably "...has the strength of ten men, because he is pure".

 

[johan denmark]

I don´t belive the radioactive salmon story, the most fish meal is from chile and peru

antaxantin is the red colour that are used to colour salmon, there are now a natural color on the market made from algea, but the price is higher than artificial but I think it will get widely used when consumers start to request it.

By the way the omega 3 fatty acids in chicken eggs comes from fish meal in the chicken diet. acctually chickens are the biggest consumer of fish meal

There are deffinately still a lot of issiues that have to solved in fish farming, but we are working on them and I still think that farmed fish is supirior to other protein sources like chicken and cow meat.

If you want to contribute to the market developing in a good direction buy the ecological salmon or buy tilapia (wich are grown on a vegetarian diet)
Or buy fish from the wild that are caugth in non harmful ways (that are not trawled)
Or buy it from a comercial spearfisher wich is probably the most ecofrienly way to harvest the ocean

 

[wet]

I don´t belive the radioactive salmon story, the most fish meal is from chile and peru

Yes, as I mentioned above, collected from the Humboldt current of Pacific ocean from southern ocean.

I thought that Xanthanin (spelling?) was a colorant from red seaweed, but not sure.

antaxantin is the red colour that are used to colour salmon, there are now a natural color on the market made from algea, but the price is higher than artificial but I think it will get widely used when consumers start to request it.

By the way the omega 3 fatty acids in chicken eggs comes from fish meal in the chicken diet. acctually chickens are the biggest consumer of fish meal

Ok, thanks, my source only said "livestock", which in western USA is usually thought of as cattle, but chickens makes much more sense.

There are deffinately still a lot of issiues that have to solved in fish farming, but we are working on them and I still think that farmed fish is supirior to other protein sources like chicken and cow meat.

Agree, fish-shrimp-oyster etc. all have great farming potential, but need to be improved, currently they are still too hazardous for the aquatic ecosystems. Australian Aborigines perfected eel farming thousands of years ago at inland freshwater lakes, and Hawaiians have had some sort of fish farming too. If tilapia could taste like salmon, I would enjoy it very much. I haven't tried tilapia...

If you want to contribute to the market developing in a good direction buy the ecological salmon or buy tilapia (wich are grown on a vegetarian diet)
Or buy fish from the wild that are caugth in non harmful ways (that are not trawled)
Or buy it from a comercial spearfisher wich is probably the most ecofrienly way to harvest the ocean

I'm particularly concerned with the destruction of mangrove forest buffer strips along the coasts by shrimp and other mariculture industries. Not only do the mangroves reduce the bad storm damages and give balanced sustainance to reef ecosystems offshore, but also provide roosting places for fruit bats which deposit their manure (with seeds) around the tropical rainforests and to offshore islands, reforesting barren areas.

Salmon occur further north, so mangroves aren't an issue there, but the concept still remains important. Mangrove destruction should be criminalised, with only allowances for relatively small clear-cut open sites, IMO.

Agree with you about spearing, but IMO scuba etc. more regulated than freediving.

DDeden

 

[Mr. X]

I don´t belive the radioactive salmon story, the most fish meal is from chile and peru

BBC news link: BBC NEWS | Scotland | Radioactive waste 'found in salmon'
[BTW there are some stories on nuclear subs. flushing radioactive waste out into the sea too, if you search for this info.]
This one also talks about other carcinogins: News | Telegraph
"Compared with North America and Chile, concentrations of cancer-causing substances in most European farmed salmon are so high that, again following guidelines of the US Environmental Protection Agency, only one meal - around 200g - should be eaten every other month."

...antaxantin is the red colour that are used to colour salmon, there are now a natural color on the market made from algea, but the price is higher than artificial but I think it will get widely used when consumers start to request it.

Most consumers are blissfully unaware that their fish is dyed and so are unlikely to ask for a change...and who would they ask anyway? [Are there any safe red food dyes? I thought not.]

...By the way the omega 3 fatty acids in chicken eggs comes from fish meal in the chicken diet. acctually chickens are the biggest consumer of fish meal

The brand I saw (in the USA) had a vegetarian diet. Omega 3 enriched eggs are also available in the UK now. I was unable to find the brand on-line for reference but this page talks about feeding hens flax seed to enrich their eggs with Omega-3: Campus News: U of G Prof Working to 'Hatch' Omega-3 Chicken
The Chicken and Egg Page
http://www.eggs.ca/pdf/omega-3_e.pdf
You'd think a vegetarian source would be cheaper too (and more natural...from the country that brought you BSE by feeding offal to cattle).
There are also articles that suggest free range chickens can be higher in Omega-3 (but you have to think that would vary).

...There are deffinately still a lot of issiues that have to solved in fish farming, but we are working on them and I still think that farmed fish is supirior to other protein sources like chicken and cow meat.

May be. Wild game and deer is probably better than both - although bred game birds are usually fed feed treated with antibiotics too. I wish you well in improving things though ... I think you need to aim to be more natural (even "organic") -- easier said than done. Some of our local farmers are loosing out because they don't get the increasing market for organic food (which is admittedly not perfect) and so don't grow it - but they sure whine about loosing out.

...If you want to contribute to the market developing in a good direction buy the ecological salmon or buy tilapia (wich are grown on a vegetarian diet)
Or buy fish from the wild that are caugth in non harmful ways (that are not trawled)
Or buy it from a comercial spearfisher wich is probably the most ecofrienly way to harvest the ocean

I don't know if salmon eating vegatarian is natural or wholesome - worth a try I suppose. Long lines seem to be considered one of the more "ethical" commercial fishing techniques - even though they are exterminating hundreds of thousands of albatross (some fisherman are working on ways to reduce that though). Agreed about spearfishing, although selling speared fish is illegal in the UK.

...
I'm particularly concerned with the destruction of mangrove forest buffer strips along the coasts by shrimp and other mariculture industries. Not only do the mangroves reduce the bad storm damages and give balanced sustainance to reef ecosystems offshore, but also provide roosting places for fruit bats which deposit their manure (with seeds) around the tropical rainforests and to offshore islands, reforesting barren areas.
...

The eradication of the last remaining orangatang habitat to grow heart clogging palm oil is also perverse (apparently palm oil is the wholesome-sounding "vegetable fat" used in British chocolate).

 

[sickbugs]

i think people get on too petty about a lot of this.. its dead allready, why not just eat it? geez... make a stand on some real important things in life, not how much food dye or whatever it is your salmon has... if you think spearing is unethical, dont spear fish, join peta or something...

 

[Mr. X]

... make a stand on some real important things in life, not how much food dye or whatever it is your salmon has... if you think spearing is unethical, dont spear fish, join peta or something...

We discussed the human food supply, pollution of the sea, extermination of species & food stocks. There are more important things (global warming/population/poverty/disease/war/...) but this stuff is important too.

Everybody on thread came out in favour of spearing, as probably the most selective form of fishing (what a surprise!). Personal & national rules & limits vary - no great surprise. So hopefully nobody will feel the need to contact PETA (but if they do, read the PETA thread first).

 

[naiad]

I think spearing is the most selective way of fishing, and probably the most eco-friendly. I don't agree with trophy-hunting or spearing endangered species or tame fish.

The quality of food can have a great effect on our health, so I think it is very important. My health has improved a lot since I stopped eating hydrogenated vegetable oil.
http://forums.deeperblue.net/beach-bar/69891-oils-fats.html

Lucia

 

[Oldsarge]

What's really funny about the hydrogenated veg oil thing is that in the beginning it was introduced as a healthier replacement for butter and bacon fat. So was palm oil. Makes one wonder about all the hype about how to eat healthily. After all, it isn't medicine, it's just food. Eat what makes you feel good and avoid the things that don't. What could be simpler than that? And as for Diets for A Small Planet or To Save Humanity, every food Nazi/guru from my coming up is dead. Pritikin: dead. Rodeale: dead. Oshawa: dead. Eat what makes you feel good and avoid the things that don't . . . and remember that everyone's body is different and that you aren't a Rule For The Species. Simple, really.

 

[billder99]

Mexican waters, no spearfishing with scuba, and no pneumatic guns... bands and freedive only. Works for me.

 

[Mr. X]

BBC news link: BBC NEWS | Scotland | Radioactive waste 'found in salmon'

From the Daily Telegraph today: Greenpeace wins nuclear power victory | Uk News | News | Telegraph

...the operator of a nuclear plant was fined £140,000 for releasing radioactive particles into the sea and illegally dumping radioactive waste.

A sheriff at Wick Sheriff Court in Scotland fined the UK Atomic Energy Authority (UKAEA), which pleaded guilty last week to four charges under the Radioactive Substances Act.

The breaches happened between 1963 and 1984 at the Dounreay nuclear site in Caithness. The sheriff said he was fining the UKAEA for "very grave errors".

Back on thread, d'you think it is ok to hunt trophy size fish if you eat them? A big bass would make a great party BBQ. My last GP (in the US) shot a water buffalo on holiday in Africa - which provided fresh meat to the local village for a week. Moderate hunting of wild animals, where practical, seems preferable to raising animals for food - provided it helps sustain the wild environment. [BTW I read an article on spearing off the E. Coast of the USA where they recommended taking the smaller fish (striped bass) for eating as the largest ones usually had parasites, especially worms around the tail area:yack ]

 

[Oldsarge]

That last is actually good conservation as it turns out that the larger the fish the more it spawns, i.e. a 20 lb. female puts out more eggs that two 10 pounders. In the U.S. we have some areas where there there are size maximums for keeper fish, especially in fresh water.

And that story about the buff is spot on. Believe me, none of the animals I've ever taken went to waste. If I didn't eat them, someone else did! Frequently several someone else's. I even have pix of an elephant a friend took in Zim years ago. Gunshot to a few bones on the ground and a red stain in the sand in six hours flat!

 

[omega3]

Well well hunting ethics and the mention of Zim. I look at the state of Zim now. Amongst other things it has the worlds highest inflation rate . Foot and mouth is rife. National herds devastated domestic and game. Folk trying to survive on grass.

I have read the books "A hunters life in South Africa" by Gordon Cumming? I found them facinating, an incredible read of a bygone era. If so you may be aware of the current state of affairs compared with the state when the first recreational hunting explorers entered the area and had folk following them for a free lunch. largely on the understanding that the Bushmen or Hottentots are the only indigenous tribe of Southern Africa. The other tribes are migrants from West and East central Africa, and the Vashona had zero to do with "Great Zimbabwe". The areas he(Cumming) toured across the Limpopo were largely uninhabited even from Shaka`s son Umzilikaze and all of Shaka` wives he poached(naughty naughty....man of the year award LOL) and which later formed the Amandebele tribe.

I knew quite a few folk who operated "barrel shoots" for the modern "Great White Hunters" and managed the game OK in Zim.

Well these animals may not have gone to waste but in the long run did this get them anywhere looking at the state of Zim today????

On the topic of hunting ethics I am not sure looking at the current state of Zim and many other locations as well as related to fishing that self imposed "hunting ethics" can do anything for the survival of the stocks they are there to supposedly help protect and would therefore just be another stance for the moral highground for those that can afford such views because they are not starving, making a profit from this resource or have nothing better to do.

Either way that animal/food source is finished. Should it go on to support growth then that growth will surely want sustaining and of course will only grow as much as the food source permits. The idea that nothing goes to waste when an animal is killed if it is used to further growth is ludicrous .The likes of Cumming fed hundreds as he waded into herds the size of which we will never see again.

Ethics, like morals are they worth anything to an empty stomach????

I bet when all else isn`t available that rhino and whale taste great and we wouldn`t care who we have to climb over to get it.rofl

 

[deep thinker]

Living in a neighbouring country to Zim, I can make quite a few comments on the whole thing happening there, but they might be considered politically incorrect, so Ill just keep quiet on the whole issue there but I will say greed is a dangerous thing when it comes from a position of power...

 

[covert]

interesting view and you probably know a bit more about sub saharan africa, than most. But remember than spearfishers and game fishers arent the slightest threat to the ocean stocks. Let me put it this way, the other day we wanted to go shoot some yellowtail, only to discover that the commercials netted the bay and took 15 tons of YT that was about to breed. So we can effectivly say that these guys took 15 current tons and about 45 future tons of fish stock.

How long will ti take 100 spearo's to kill 15 tons of YT?

We couldnt do that in 50 years. The problem is commerical harvesting of available fish stocks. And the goverments that regulate these commerical companies.

 

[Mr. X]

...I look at the state of Zim now. Amongst other things it has the worlds highest inflation rate . Foot and mouth is rife. National herds devastated domestic and game. Folk trying to survive on grass. ...

Thought you were writing about Britain for minute there:
BBC NEWS | Business | UK inflation at near-decade high
[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_UK_foot_and_mouth_crisis]2001 UK foot and mouth crisis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
BBC NEWS | UK | Experts hunt for bird flu source
BBC NEWS | UK | Cameron 'smoked drugs at school'

[I had a Rhodesian teacher who used to show us slides of the old country - beautiful.]

How long will ti take 100 spearo's to kill 15 tons of YT?

A v. long time -- but probably much less if Miles & Tommy Botha were on the team .

.... Should it go on to support growth then that growth will surely want sustaining and of course will only grow as much as the food source permits...I bet when all else isn`t available that rhino and whale taste great and we wouldn`t care who we have to climb over to get it.rofl

Good points.

 

[wet]

The eradication of the last remaining orangatang habitat to grow heart clogging palm oil is also perverse (apparently palm oil is the wholesome-sounding "vegetable fat" used in British chocolate).

Just to mention that pure palm/coconut oil is very healthy to consume,
while (partially or fully) hydrogenated palm/coconut oil is very unhealthy to consume, being trans-fats.

Also, I've heard that Borneo is establishing a "Heartland" natural reserve, the governments of Brunei, Malaysia and Indonesia intend to make a park there to preserve nature. No doubt the loggers & poachers will speed up their work now.
I doubt that the mangroves will be set aside, probably the poorest rocky soils and most inaccesable areas will be "protected", while the lowland areas will be "developed and improved" into monoculture plantations, at least that is how it usually goes.
DDeden

 

[omega3]

Thought you were writing about Britain for minute there:
BBC NEWS | Business | UK inflation at near-decade high
2001 UK foot and mouth crisis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
BBC NEWS | UK | Experts hunt for bird flu source
BBC NEWS | UK | Cameron 'smoked drugs at school'

[I had a Rhodesian teacher who used to show us slides of the old country - beautiful.][/.

That is funny rofl


On another note I have found a link to the second book of "A Hunters Life In South Africa" by Gordon Cumming for anyone interested.

It can be read on the net for free from this link. Even the chapter descriptions are ...... (don`t know what to say!!!)

If I remember right I preferred the first book . Either way I found this an interesting read on many levels.

The books were also released in the "Rhodesiana "series

Five Years of a Hunter's Life in the Far... - Google Book Search