Ethics of hunting

[naiad]

I think most of the UK spearos are very ethical. I have heard of a lot more cruelty from anglers and the pet trade than from UK spearos. At least they eat what they catch, and don't cause unnecessary suffering.

I have heard anglers saying that they throw around unwanted species of fish, such as bream and tench, or leave them hooked in the water for hours, or rip the hook out of their mouth. Someone dropped a 20lb mirror carp on the ground, and some of its scales fell off. Fortunately it recovered and now lives in a koi pond. I have seen people throwing goldfish and minnows around, some onto a concrete path. All of these were not for food, pest control or self-defence.

Spearos generally have a respect for fish and the environment.

Lucia

 

[deckhand mike]

I don't know why so some of you seem to think freediving for your fish is so hard and sporting. Killing defenseless fish in any manner isn't really sporting. I mean sure if there big or smart it makes it a little harder but come on it's not that hard. I prefer freediving for my fish for the oppsite reason. I think lugging all that extra weight sucks and is way harder than just swimming. Anytime conditions allow I leave my tanks on shore and I kill plenty of fish and I can't even hold my breath long.

 

[covert]

oh looky our very own super hero.. Who would have thought dechand mike your the bested one day when i grow up i want to be just like you, huh can i, huh huh can i please.

 

[deckhand mike]

The point is that i don't think scuba is an advantage and there is nothing spiritual or magical about killing a fish. Who cares how you kill it as long as it gets eaten by someone.

 

[trux]

The point is that i don't think scuba is an advantage and there is nothing spiritual or magical about killing a fish. Who cares how you kill it as long as it gets eaten by someone.

I do not quite agree. There are many diving resorts where scuba monitors know many resident fish (often give them names) and bring visitors to look at them or even feed them. And I know that they do not like at all spearos who come and clean up their diving spots of all big fish. Doing that is a real sign of cowardice - the fish is used to scuba divers and does not consider them a danger.

Well, you could as well tell that it is OK to kill neighbour's dog - as long as you eat it, there is no problem and it is quite ethical. From purely biological point of view you are probably right, but I can't help myself, I think it is not correct. And I think the same about using scuba for spearing in places where scuba diving (not spearing) is common. If you want to do it, do it at least far from such spots.

 

[spaghetti]

I don't know why so some of you seem to think freediving for your fish is so hard and sporting. Killing defenseless fish in any manner isn't really sporting. I mean sure if there big or smart it makes it a little harder but come on it's not that hard. I prefer freediving for my fish for the oppsite reason. I think lugging all that extra weight sucks and is way harder than just swimming. Anytime conditions allow I leave my tanks on shore and I kill plenty of fish and I can't even hold my breath long.

It depends on the location: just like you I've been occasionally hunting in places where it was way too easy, plenty of harmless and confident fish. But in most of the places I've been I can assure you that it's not easy at all.
Now Deckhand Mike, said that location is the key in the easy vs. sporting argument, you should remember that this is an international forum: there are people from all over the world, and the world is not all the same as Morro Bay where you live. So even if it wasn't your intention, I'm afraid that some guys here can take your posts as a bit offensive.

 

[covert]

lol im not quite as politically correct as spaghetti, but yeah you pretty much summed it up pretty niceley. Deckhand mike is more than welcome to dive off seal island, meet a couple of great whites in 4/5 m swells 3m viz reefs are about 20-30 meters down with one hell of a undertoe. Its pretty easy spearing there.

Its now out of my system dont worry guys

 

[deep thinker]

Lol in that case why not try Struis on a bad day, heck even a good day will have you sweating in your suit, the few times Ive been there you get your fish but theyre all pretty skittish especially the bigger reef fish and you really have to work to get to them. The only place that is relatively easy to spear in I know of is the blombos area but thats only because there is lots of fish and the water gets deep pretty quickly... but even here you get your days where you spend 3 hours or more in the water and come out with one or 2 or even no fish on your stringer, now ad a few hungry raggies and you have a awesome day of spearing having to look deep inside yourself if its all worth it rofl

 

[cdavis]

Deckhand an Spagetti have good points that are not being listened to. Location makes a huge difference. For example, in my favorite area (the Bahamas 8 - 15 m) give me my preferred gear, sling and freediving, and I will outshoot the tanker with a gun by two or three to one. Am I somehow being "unsporting"? I should stap on a tank, pick up a gun, take less fish, and be morally superior?? That seems kind of ridiculous. Of course, make the depth 30 m and the tanker wins by a landslide. Why is that "unsporting"? As another example, on the Florida west coast live some extremely good freediving spearos, but in their home waters when not in competitions, nearly all of them use scuba. This not a "sporting" thing, but simply a recognition of local conditions.
Along similar lines, anybody that thinks that spearfishing, yes even freediving spearfishing, can't decimate some fishery resources, given the right conditions, is simply wrong. There are places and species for which no kind of spearing should be allowed, others where scuba spearing is perfectly ok, even necessary to spear. Purely dependent on the situation.
IMHO, the moral arguments about different gears are a bit ridiculous and amount to little more than irrational justification for whatever type of gear someone wants to use or fuzzy thinking about the real nature of an overfishing problem.

Connor

 

[spaghetti]

anybody that thinks that spearfishing, yes even freediving spearfishing, can't decimate some fishery resources, given the right conditions, is simply wrong. There are places and species for which no kind of spearing should be allowed, others where scuba spearing is perfectly ok, even necessary to spear. Purely dependent on the situation.
Connor

If you refer to groupers I may partially agree, but this still depends on location. In Italy groupers have been exterminated both by breath hold and (mostly) scuba hunters when scuba hunt was legal in the past, and they're still been overkilled by illegal scuba hunters nowadays. As a result, all along the italian seas it is very, very rare to find an adult grouper above 20 meters. For us grouper is a deep fish.
Now, the real difficulties in hunting groupers are: get there and find them; pull them out of the cave. Both things can be very hard and even dangerous breath hold (I'm talking about 20 meters average), but on scuba I'm quite sure we can agree it's a simple task.
But still, this is my feedback about the peculiar situation in my national waters, for what it's worth discussing.

 

[deckhand mike]

All right you guys win. I apologize to everyone. Where I live there are no tame fish used to scuba divers just lots and lots of fish. Maybe where you guys are from the fish are more skittish from encounters with spearos. There is no sport in shooting tame fish. In my narrow neck of the woods you dive and shoot to eat and when your done you get out before you get eaten! There really isn't a lot to consider when it comes to diving around Morro bay, location should determine your approach and ethics in the sport. If you live in a sensitive habitat of course you should worry about it. In my case the few dozen freediving spearos couldn't dent the spots we fish. Shoot a fish in a hole the next day another good one takes it's place. There is almost no fishing pressure off the Big Sur coast. Guess I'm lucky! Man you guys get all fired up easy.

 

[GreekDiver]

i think scuba diving with a speargun is ok in certain places. I scuba dive in virginia (chesapeake bay) with a speargun but the visability is no more than 5 feet and you can only dive at the highend of the high tide. Your dive will last no more than 1 1/2 hours because the current rips so hard.

 

[covert]

deckhand what can i say I guess we are really passionate about spearing, and I personaly think the harder the challenge the more rewarding the catch.

 

[deckhand mike]

I don't know what to think, I'm passionate about spearing too but I don't get all riled up about how it's done. Scuba or freedive the enviromental impact is the same. Why does it matter how you kill a fish. My dinner taste the same. 95% of the fish I shoot is done freediving but were do you get off on bagging on those who prefer to use tanks? I think that is pretty narrow minded point of view. Are you seriously suggesting fish taken on tank are inferior or for that matter better for the enviroment? From what it sounds like you prefer the sport of freediving to the end result, well if that's what your about do what I do when I feel SPORTING. Swim up to a nice fish and point your gun at and make a little noise pretending you shot it and then swim away. It's all most as good as a kill.

 

[covert]

sigh deckhand you just dont get it do you. The point is simple and has been stated many times before. Its more difficult in most cases without scuba gear and therefor iots more sporting. That the general consensus as far as I am aware. But to quote some actor from some movie sometime

"Theres always one !@$#@$ that has to swim upstream" So if you feel happy diving with tanks then so be it nobody can stop you. But at least in SA its illegal to do so. And thats a good thing.

 

[GreekDiver]

sigh deckhand you just dont get it do you. The point is simple and has been stated many times before. Its more difficult in most cases without scuba gear and therefor iots more sporting. That the general consensus as far as I am aware. But to quote some actor from some movie sometime

"Theres always one !@$#@$ that has to swim upstream" So if you feel happy diving with tanks then so be it nobody can stop you. But at least in SA its illegal to do so. And thats a good thing.

Some people dont do it for sport and they have every right to do what they want. Most of us on DB shoot for sport and food. Some people just want fish on the table. I dont really care as long as laws are followed. I get more fish when i freedive. I really dont like scuba unless i have to for certain fish in dirty waters.

 

[Robbo66]

I don't know one person who scuba's to spear....and I would not want to.

Banned in france, and it should be in the UK....indefensible.

It would appear that those who continue to Scuba simply do so because they either cannot, or are too lazy and unethical to try.

Shooting a Grouper the size of a small island at whatever depth, whatever vis on Scuba remains a practice for those hideous 'trophy hunter' types desperately trying to haul the head of their prize from the deck of their crass chartered vessel...named the ' yeeehaaaa', before jumping into their Cayenne for the drive home.

Maybe they should be looking into Penis Enlargement - The Best to Enlarge your Penis to help them with their inner turmoil

Gives a bad name to all of us.

Rant over

Rob

 

[GreekDiver]

I don't know one person who scuba's to spear....and I would not want to.

Banned in france, and it should be in the UK....indefensible.

It would appear that those who continue to Scuba simply do so because they either cannot, or are too lazy and unethical to try.

Shooting a Grouper the size of a small island at whatever depth, whatever vis on Scuba remains a practice for those hideous 'trophy hunter' types desperately trying to haul the head of their prize from the deck of their crass chartered vessel...named the ' yeeehaaaa', before jumping into their Cayenne for the drive home.

Maybe they should be looking into Penis Enlargement - The Best to Enlarge your Penis to help them with their inner turmoil

Gives a bad name to all of us.

Rant over

Rob

There is certain parts of the world where the fish are very plentiful but the visability and current is horrible. Sometimes when people say something on a forum you have to remember this is an international forum meaning things are different in each country or area. Just try to have an open mind about things but its hard when you just compare it to your surroundings. I know what you mean when you say people spearing grouper. The grouper dont even move in their hole and with a tank you can take your time removing it after its speared.

I dont like to scuba. I really hate it. I hate carrying all that crap on me and a pain to refill not mention store in the boat. I can breathhold spearfish for a pretty long time so i prefer to go without tanks. Now, there is certain fish in certain conditions like i said that needs to speared with scuba. Looking for flounder in 3 ft visability at 50ft with current thats contantly ripping is not a good idea for freediving. Im talking about current that makes you use your hands to grab rocks for movement.

 

[Bill McIntyre]

It would appear that those who continue to Scuba simply do so because they either cannot, or are too lazy and unethical to try.

It seems these scuba vs free threads go on and on and no one ever changes his mind. Having said my piece early in this one, I really did resolve to stay out of it, but now you have sucked me back in.

I don't know why I'm dumb enough to think I could actually cause anyone to take a wider view, but here goes with an example I have used many times before.

In Southern California, our most sought-after species, white sea bass, are very sensitive to noise and movement. I have seen them bolt at the squeak of ears being equalized. We always remove our snorkels from our mouths as we start the dive so that we won't scare them with a stream of bubbles. Some people punch holes in the top of their hoods so as to make sure all the air gets out so that a stray bubble won't escape the suit and spook the fish. As you can imagine, the sound of a regulator and all those exhaust bubbles would be absolutely out of the question.

Our other most popular gamefish, the yellowtail, may not be quite as sensitive, but it is also very hard to approach using scuba.

So, if we really want to be "sporting" doesn't it follow that we should use scuba gear? If we hunt them while holding our breaths, aren't we taking advantage by sneaking up on them silently and not giving them proper warning?

That is really a rotten thing to do, and should be banned.

 

[Robbo66]

There is certain parts of the world where the fish are very plentiful but the visability and current is horrible. Sometimes when people say something on a forum you have to remember this is an international forum meaning things are different in each country or area. Just try to have an open mind about things but its hard when you just compare it to your surroundings. I know what you mean when you say people spearing grouper. The grouper dont even move in their hole and with a tank you can take your time removing it after its speared.

I dont like to scuba. I really hate it. I hate carrying all that crap on me and a pain to refill not mention store in the boat. I can breathhold spearfish for a pretty long time so i prefer to go without tanks. Now, there is certain fish in certain conditions like i said that needs to speared with scuba. Looking for flounder in 3 ft visability at 50ft with current thats contantly ripping is not a good idea for freediving. Im talking about current that makes you use your hands to grab rocks for movement.

Hi,

I promise I'm not comparing to my surroundings. We too have very strong currents and a massive tidal range leading to poor vis, but we wouldn't consider diving in 3ft vis for a flounder at 50ft....with a bottle on....we'd go and do something else.

As you say, you don't like Scuba, really hate it infact...I bet the fish do too, aswell as the majority on here and practicing .......so why do it ?

It remains much harder to free dive in current, as we constantly end up doing at differing levels of tide...but please don't tell me that it's harder to Scuba....just won't wash I'm afraid.

Is there not a better arguement for justification to this excuse for a sport than 'Currents' ??

If there is...I've never heard one.

Rob