Exhale Diving for the "average" diver

[Phil C]

Had a couple of interesting Exhale DNF dives over the weekend at the Deep Obsession Comp here in Auckland.

I have been working away at my exhale diving with the aim of breaking my inhale DNF NR.

The first attempt (yesterday) didn't go so well, with me terminating the dive abruptly at 110m after a rapid, fine tremor developed (went away after recovery breaths). The sensation was definitely not one of a classical samba and I was completely clear headed. But it did feel vaguely familiar, after thinking about it for a while I remembered that I had experienced something similar doing a set of exhale statics (around 2:30 duration). I suspected hypercapnia (particularly after reviewing the symptoms thereof on the internet) so today altered my breathe up to include slightly more ventilation.

The result was a 144m dive (6m better than my inhale NR) without a tremor (albeit somewhat hypoxic).

Thoughts? Anyone else had a similar experience?

Phil C

 

[Kars]

Wow phil, wow!

I wish I had the 144m DNF exhale experience!
Great job!

I don't know about the tremor's source, but I think you're not far off in your analysis.
I did recall having 1-2 'tremor' dives. At the time I used this as an indicator to come up. Like a part body samba. Those were my thoughts at the time, but I now don't know for sure.

Many congratulations!

Love, Courage and Water,

Kars

 

[efattah]

Congrats on the 144m DNF, probably the first major national record set at FRC?

When diving on enriched oxygen, after around 5 minutes underwater I start to shake. My whole body has tremors. This is always caused by CO2. Same thing on enriched O2 statics. It can happen with regular air on some CO2 tables, but I have not had it happen 'air' dives, but Mullins had tremors in the deep at 100m+ once on his 110m dive years ago.

 

[cdavis]

Phil, approximately how much of a lungful, for you, remains at passive exhale in the water, 1/2, 1/4, almost empty?

 

[Phil C]

I'd guess around 1/4 but I'll look into testing it.

I am doing these dives at neutral buoyancy in Orca Alpha w/o weights. My inhale, packed dives I do in a Orca RS1 with 3.7kg lead. I guess that the buoyancy difference between a RS1 and an Alpha is about 1-1.3kg so in round terms I think I am exhaling 4 to 5 litres relative to my packed volume.

I'll report back.

Phil C

 

[Phil C]

not exactly a measure of how much air I dive with but this should give an indication.

on my exhale dives I am neutral in my orca alpha. today ballasted myself to be similarily neutral on an inhale and inhale packed. the inhale took 4kg lead and the packed inhale 5.2kg. so i guess that means that i am exhaling about 4l. i don't know my TLC but mean for my height is 6l based on a pap0er i read once. I think, mean res for someone of my height/age was around 2l. That dosent quite add up though because I'm pretty sure i do my dives at least 1l above res vol.

apologies for rough post-sent from my HTC.

phil

 

[ericvrp]

Thanks Phil for all the details. I've started doing DNF dives on FRC again after I read your posts in this thread. With FRC I'm neutral (without neoprene) so for me this means I can leave my 5.8kg neckweight (that I use for dives with packing) at home. I'm adding a couple of meters each week. Yesterday I did a p.b. of 81 meters so I'm now working towards swimming 100m.

 

[Phil C]

Got the video up on Youtube from the 144 exhale DNF.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5svdrEYa51Q]Philip Clayton - DeepObsession 2011 - YouTube[/ame]

Cheers,

Phil

 

[trux]

Phil, could you peek into the thread http://forums.deeperblue.com/beginner-freediving/92723-dnf-technique-rules.html#post862953 ? Dave Mullins asked if I know someone who can do equal or better performances on FRC compared to full inhale. I gave you as an example, because your competition DNF PB is higher on exhale than on inhale, but Dave tells the competition PB is irrelevant, and that you certainly can dive much longer on inhale. So your statement would be interesting.

The opinion of other FRC divers would be equally interesting.

 

[Phil C]

Hi Trux,

Just posted in the other thread. You are right about the Exhale DNF swim. It is further than my current PB on inhale.

I am flattered by Dave's faith in my ability ; )

Phil

 

[cdavis]

My dive time in recreational, serial diving is much longer on FRC. That is pretty different from competition, in part because I'm looking for "comfortable" dives, not max dives. In the pool, doing FRC static/dynamic practice, I do much longer dive times with the same 50 yard swim. Sometimes those are "max" dives and get up next to 4 minutes. All of that is with fins.

Connor

 

[cdavis]

Update after a long pause:

I'm diving pretty much exclusively FRC since this thread started. FRC means about half lung for me.

Its become more and more clear to me that achieving the best FRC performance (defined as longest, deepest, most comfortable dive) is highly dependent on practice. Laminar was right but I never have had access to enough real diving to get enough practice. When I had access to a 4 meter pool and practiced extreme exhale dives 2-3 times a week, my depth ability slowly increased until I could dive in excess of 100 ft. Depth ability went to heck shortly after losing that access. After realizing how much my depth ability had been hurt, I hunted around and found a stretching routine(combination of exhale diaphragm stretches and intercostal stretches)that has maintained a decent level of depth ability, about 80-85 ft, but only if I do it almost every day. I've been getting lazy about it and last week discovered that 80 ft was hard.

Spent last week diving in the Bahamas with DBs Lance, an extremely competent diver from California, who regularly shoots fish in very deep cold water. He trains hard,is in spectacular shape, is well adapted to full lung diving, and has a diving style that I think is typical of cold water spearos. The difference in our styles is instructive. I'm a lot older than he and not in anywhere near as good a condition. I use a typical FRC approach, neutral about 15 ft, very slow, minimal effort descents,use my negative buoyancy to glide laterally from mid water down, don't exert much effort moving around until its time to come up, doing as long a dive as is consistent with a reasonably quick recovery. Lance wears little weight, is neutral deep, powers down, powers up, moves around more on the bottom, can do very long dives with this pattern if he wishes, but usually does relatively short dives, very quick recovery. Both styles work and which one works best has a lot do do with the individual diver and the conditions he dives in.

Connor

 

[fflupo]

very nice to read that u guys r still active and have the strong motivation combined with the resulting fun to explore the e dives.
so do I... still dive a lot but more complete empty

are you doing special stretching to keep the ribcage flexible I realized with getting older that it needs more work on this matter?

 

[Kars]

Hi Lupo! Long time no see

I think you're right, the older we get, the stiffer we get (in most area's.. . Upon death we become entirely stiff

Like Connor indicates, I think we can only practice to keep our bodies and mind flexible as long as we can.

 

[cdavis]

Hi fflupo and Kars,

I stretch or run most mornings; neither is intense. Running has been getting in the way of consistent stretching and I could see the difference last week. Somehow I gotta do both. Stretching for flexibility includes empty diaphragm stretches and intercostal stretches

It seems like intercostal stretching is the most effective for depth ability. I sit down cross legged on the floor, full breath, hands over the head and stretch sideways as far as possible, 30 seconds to a minute stretch. Also turn while stretching to get at the muscles in the back of the ribcage. Finally I reach forward,grab an immobile object and pull while arching my back, also getting at the muscles in back. Do this every day and it makes at least a 20-25 percent increase in depth. I've discussed what I trying to do with several massage guys who know a lot about stretching. They understand but haven't been able to suggest much. Most of their work is aimed at getting a bigger ribcage expansion, not the contraction I'm looking for.

Any ideas on a more effective routine? What might encourage dive reflex?

Fflupo, diving all the way empty and doing any depth with it takes extreme flexibility. How do you maintain that?

Connor

 

[growingupninja]

Lance wears little weight, is neutral deep, powers down, powers up, moves around more on the bottom, can do very long dives with this pattern if he wishes, but usually does relatively short dives, very quick recovery. Both styles work and which one works best has a lot do do with the individual diver and the conditions he dives in.

Connor

Had a great time and it was instructive to me too!

I don't do much skin diving and like you said my habits are likely optimized for cold water (heavy wetsuit)... The power down portion of the dive is needed to overcome suit buoyancy, but after about 40' I am very heavy and falling very fast, so at the start of the dive I am used to opening the throttle then shutting down quickly. Coming up can be rather grueling but muscles are working anaerobically at that point.

In warmer water with no suit and less weight, I felt like I was burning a lot of gas getting down and never really going deep enough to hit the accelerated freefall that I am used to. Coming up was however effortless. If doing more aspetto hunting in warm water I would probably add more weight...

 

[cdavis]

Very glad to have had you on the boat; thanks for coming. Always great to learn from somebody with very different experience.

Your style looked kind of crazy to me until I thought about it relative to your normal conditions and saw how much bottom time you were getting. What you were doing worked pretty well, especially the short dives coupled with very short recovery. For a guy who had never used a sling, you put a lot of fish in the boat.

 

[fflupo]

hi kars, yes it is a long time ago
r u still diving in the murky dutch waters?
i have managed to get my aida instructor rating and teach every now and than some selected people in mallorca..


exhale and stiff rips:
i definitely feel the limitation of the rips on exhale dives which feels like a soreness after dives, the diaphragm flexibility is great so i can track it back to the bones and their movement .
to train it i started some negative and full lung stretching mainly yoga and the exercises recommended by aharon

i also think special diet food will help ?

 

[cdavis]

Thank you fflupo. Several things in there for me to try.

 

[Kars]

Yes Lupo I'm diving again in the Dutch green murky waters, though I've visited another lake that was actually looking blue / turquoise.
Luckily I've found a buddy; or he found me and I'm working to regain my skills, as they have become murky as well
Are you still skydiving? I picture you on a yacht, enjoying nice sunsets and drifting like a seal along the a rugged coastline