Exhale Diving for the "average" diver

[Kars]

I wonder the following.

What would be the effect if I hyperventilated and then did an empty lung dive?
I suspect it will be shorter, because the body will go into burning more trying to balance the CO2. What do you guys know / think?

Next time I'll try to record the dive.

On the suit and stuff, I wear high waist 3mm pants with a sleeveless 3mm nylon neoprene shirt on top. Purpose is warmth and it helps with buoyancy, though I'm still pretty negative even near the surface. NO WEIGHTS.

If you are a newbee, needless to say it's NOT recommended to you. I you want to have a try, make sure you have a very experienced and able buddy, and dive conservative.

I yet have to measure how much FRC is for me, and how much forced empty is for me. I can exhale 5.05L after full inhale. I think the residue volume is about 15 %, so TLC = 5,94 L - is this right?
In the pursuit of the 100m empty lung I will wear a triathlon suit, that for sure helps to reduce drag. But that's still a long way to go, so no rush. First 75+ empty lungs. Crazy, crazy stuff !!

 

[azapa]

it is interesting you wear a 3mm pants and vest and are still so negative w/o lead. Your must be very exhaled. I must try some neoprene too. Thanks

 

[Kars]

Yep I'm so negative that it sometimes looks like I'm having a depression

I'm very skinny and have a difficult time showing to children how to float on their backs as my legs are really difficult to hold up.

 

[ktreloar]

hey crew thought i would share my recent results.

Crayfish session has started and that unfortunately means shallow water diving due to the gale force offshore winds where i live. However since im diving in around 10m i have started doing a few static then swim frc dives. Usually my dive times are around 3 mins, but just the other week my times went up to a easy comfortable 3.30mins dive. Not sure what has caused the spike in my times maybe because in the last three weeks i have started playing underwaterhockey twice a week on frc and doing apnea walks again to. hmm more trail and error with my training i think whats your thoughts guys?

Cheers,

Kyle Treloar

 

[turtle]

in reply to eric -

I'm sure that frc 100m dnf with a 1m30 hang is very do-able. I have been quite close to that myself with not much practice & not a great deal of aptitude for dnf.

f

 

[Kars]

Hi Turtle,

I was talking about 100m dnf EMPTY lungs, total forced exhale.

FRC is more like a passive exhale, or even a bit above a passive exhale.

Empty for me means, 6,3 TLC - 5 L VC = 1,3 RV of air.
FRC for me I would estimate to be around 3-4 L

Anyway just a heads up of my dive yesterday, it wasn't good. Next time no hamburgers and more relaxation time before OT, and no 50m apneas before hand.
This time I had a 1'09" static, followed my 1'07 of swimming, divetime 2'16". And indeed it felt close to the O2 limit. The contractions came early, after I think about 30 seconds.
Next time I need a much better preparation, and I need to start swimming earlier, after the first contraction (~30 - 40 sec). Maybe next Sunday.

 

[cdavis]

FYI, what happens when you stop training.

I spent December - May working frantically on my boat, replacing bulkheads, repairing stringers, etc, you don't want to know. The point was getting ready for summer Bahama trips. I made it, but had to entirely stop training. No cardio, no frc or other freediving practice, no diving, nada. Just do nothing for six monhts and then go straight to Bimini and start diving.

Believe it or not it sorta worked, sorta.

Dive times did not seem to change at all. After a day or so I was doing my normal 2 minute, sometimes 2 + frc dives. However, depth ability on FRC has gone completely to crap. Last October, 30 m frc was fine and I did a 33 m frc dive. This trip 20 meters felt DEEP and the best I could manage was 23 m. Looks like all the lung adaptation to depth that I had built up over several years of more or less steady practice has gone completely and I'm back to square one on depth.

Connor

 

[Phil C]

Hi Guys,

Update on my exhale DNF progress:

Finally had a go at a long competition DNF dive on exhale at the Wellington Winter Champs.
Day # 1 went rather dissapointingly, feeling the nerves and I didnt exhale enough beyond passive and felt horrible, contractions, no flow at all, came up at 110m rather grumpy.
Day #2 went much better, made sure I exhaled just a bit more than passive and everything dropped into place.

Video:

I continue to be suprised at how 'clean' I come up at a distance now getting very close to my inhale PB.

Go the dive reflex!

Phil C

 

[dimitris33]

Awesome dive! I found FRC very hard to me...

 

[efattah]

Phenomenal! 135m+ DNF at sub-FRC! Probably the first ever on video.

 

[azapa]

lovely dive Phil,I like FRC DNF too, but don't go quite that far did you have any weight at all on?

 

[laminar]

Hi Connor,

Same here. I've been away from diving for almost 10 months and recently got in the water about two weeks ago. First session sucked, felt like a beginner in terms of feeling the pressure at depth at 15m on FRC. Second session about a week later and my dive times were slowly returning, but depth still not as comfortable, although most dives were 13-20m.

In the past, I would be away from diving for 3-4 months and have very little loss of performance or comfort under pressure. But more than 6-7 months seems to result in loss of this comfort.

Oh well.

But I do remember how quickly I can get back into it. My first FRC experience was 5 dive sessions over three weeks I went from no FRC diving to 35m FRC dives without discomfort. And on a Bahamas trip in November, went from a detrained state to 48m FRC in about 10 days. Both of these are on a line. In terms of recreational diving, I take it much more slowly given that supervision is minimal and terrain often unfamiliar.

So if I can take it slowly, I have no doubt that it will come back, plus knowing what is involved in the FRC approach, makes it that much easier. And to me, slowly means staying well shallow of max depth (expressed by discomfort) but spending longer and longer time or repetitions at that depth.

The hard part: making time to get to the ocean!

Too busy swimming...!

Nice job, Phil! Can you tell us more about your decision/preference for true sub passive lung volume? Can you tell us more about what the DNF felt like at different stages?

Cheers!

Pete

FYI, what happens when you stop training.

I spent December - May working frantically on my boat, replacing bulkheads, repairing stringers, etc, you don't want to know. The point was getting ready for summer Bahama trips. I made it, but had to entirely stop training. No cardio, no frc or other freediving practice, no diving, nada. Just do nothing for six monhts and then go straight to Bimini and start diving.

Believe it or not it sorta worked, sorta.

Dive times did not seem to change at all. After a day or so I was doing my normal 2 minute, sometimes 2 + frc dives. However, depth ability on FRC has gone completely to crap. Last October 30 m frc was fine and I did a 33 m frc dive. This trip 20 meters felt DEEP and the best I could manage was 23 m. Looks like all the lung adaptation to depth that I had built up over several years of more or less steady practice has gone completely and I'm back to square one on depth.

Connor

 

[cdavis]

"slowly means staying well shallow of max depth"

Laminar, sometimes I wish you weren't so damned right. Of course, I could not follow that principle and ended the last diving day with a mild squeeze trying for 26 m. . Should be OK by the October trip.

We'll miss ya.

Connor

 

[Mullins]

My pressure tolerance comes back pretty quickly, within a few days' diving. It's always a pleasant surprise because I expect to lose it.

 

[Phil C]

Thanks for the kind words Eric, I appreciate them all the more as your dives a few years back at VB were in part my inspiration to try out FRC diving (that and the fact that I train FRC weekly when I travel to Wellington on business to avoid flying with loads of lead).

No weights at all with Orca Alpha on FRC minus a little I am neutral (and importantly pitch neutral) at about 1.5m depth.

Sensations are very different to on inhale. I get a strong 'urge to breathe response' almost as soon as I start, this fades to a moderate urge after about 50m. The dive response kicks in at about 15 -30m with that creepy shiver feeling and skin crawling feeling then settles down. Providing I exhale sufficenetly I have no contractions throughout the dive. I feel clear headed throughout and don't feel at all vague/hypoxic like I do at the end of an inhale dive.

Phil C

 

[Kars]

Thanks Phil, Great response!

I take it you don't do any preparation breath-holds?

What's preventing you from swim further at the moment, since you don't feel hypoxic at the end?

What is your pb static using the same volume of air?

I wanted to give you more rep, but DB said I needed to spread it around more, before I can give you some more.

Thank you!

Kars

 

[Phil C]

Hi Kars,

Minimum possible warmup, no preparatory breathholds, attempt to avoid any hyperventilation.

I'm not sure where the limit is and a little concerned about the consequences of a BO on a dynamic exhale. I have not come across anyone who has, so not sure how it would go. Perhaps someone else has?

Hahah PB static same air just short of 3min with a bit of a tremor (different to the normal samba, more rapid). Guy mentioned at the time that he thought I was pretty close.

Phil C

 

[Kars]

Your dynamic lasted about 2'35", just about 20 ish seconds from your sub FRC static pb
What's your empty lung pb?

I did some testing with different equipment, and found that having a 'naked' head, wearing nothing - no cap, no goggles, no noseclip - felt much more relaxing, maybe that helps to reach that illustrious 150? Also my head-tilt proved a big difference in sensations, maybe also bloodflow.

I know the scary parts of frc or empty lung dynamics, it indeed is thought provoking and believe challenging. Would it be an idea to swim a bit more relaxed until your DR kick in?

 

[Phil C]

I'm sure the no noseclip/no goggles approach would improve the DR. I already do statics w/o goggles. I'm a bit more attached to my noseclip though. Tried no-noseclip inhale dynamics last week, sure got a good DR (lactic legs) but once the contractions started I began to inhale water through the nose. It was far from relaxing.

I do keep strokes gentle in the first 50m, it may be possible to see that the first two lengths are a little slower (I haven't checked the video, although that was my intention).

Phil

 

[efattah]

I have had many sambas in horizontal FRC swims. This sounds bad, but it is actually much better and more reliable than inhale swims. What I mean is that on an inhale swim, the samba/BO can come pretty randomly and unexpectedly and be really bad. With FRC swims, I am able to come up with a marginal samba EVERY TIME if I want to. The progression of fading vision and fading thinking gives me the exact moment to come up, I take one breath and crunch my abs (forcing blood to my head) and hold it. Minor shakes occur but I never really lose control. I'm not recommending pushing to samba in any training exercise, I'm just saying that it is not worse at all on FRC compared to inhale.

I don't think I get nearly as big dive reflex as Phil gets. My longest FRC dynamics are less than half of the duration of a static with similar lung volume.

Swimming at high speed the most I ever did was 81 monofin strokes on an FRC dynamic, but the distance was unknown because it was in the ocean, where I have done most of my horizontal work.