Exhale Diving for the "average" diver

Thanks for that Trux. Let me think about it for a while. It seems to explain something that started about a year ago. Have to check my log.

It's a very good thread, and it's interesting we're learning here so much

Reading these post in combination with my own FRC experiences give me idea's, I wonder what you think of them.

Training FRC, has me be in the 'discomfort-zone, LOW O2' relatively comfortably (Low Co2?) for longer times.

For instance when I do an exhale dynamic, I sink like a rock, wearing a suit, to 5m, wait a minute for a couple of contractions, then start swimming slowly until I need to come up. Upon surfacing I experience the nice feeling of blood being redistributed to my limbs again, and the vascular - relaxation, a very nice feeling that I also have after a deep dive.

I repeat this dive for 5-6 times, and It's training effect seems like doing 5-6 max dives, though it costs much less energy and mental strength.

So in other words FRC training is also more effective?

For me personally it's important to cultivate the vascular constriction, or else my O2 is more quickly going to my muscles than my brain while doing dynamics. Yes maybe my body has screwed up priorities LOL.

When I do a full inhale dynamic, I now have also adopted the slow 'static' style glide stroke, of little soft strokes with long glides to wait for the vascular constriction to kick in, after which I'll speed up a bit.

What do you guys think?

Thanks,

Kars

Kars:
1) Basically how do you pre pair for such dive?
2) What thickness suit do you use? Any weights?
3) How do you breathe?
4) How much do you breathe?
5) How does your dive profile look? Descend time, bottom, ascend time?
6) After what time do you feel DR, vasoconstriction, kicks in?

1) i do 3 dives on a passive exhale down to 26m to get a strong bloodshift, and to let my body know that there is more to come, with 3 times the dive time on the surface, for safety reasons i am using a minima mask, on every dive i stay longer down at the bottom f.e. 90s, 120s, 150s,
on the max. dive i fall down slow after 3 kicks and focus on diaphragm relaxation and mouthfill as well i let cold water in the suit and right away i can feel how my body-system slows down
2)at the moment i m training CW with a 7mm freedown/elios top and 5mm pants in 16C of water with 4kg weight
4)i would say that i breath normal and slow,deep with the diaphragm,active exhale and passive inhale, nothing special but i go in a kind of concentration mind mode
5)on a approx. 4 min dive/+25m i take 1min down 2.5min bottom 0.5min to come up. the bottom time is the difficult part, i have a strong DR i m so relaxed and gone that i find it hard to realize when to come up, i had to learn during the last 3 years to listen to my body,after a struggle phase if it becomes easy again i start to prepare the ascend..
6)it depends on different things like hypothermie, motivation etc. and descend speed sometimes i feel the bloodshift and vasoconstriction very strong after 30s and my mind goes in the blank state right away.
what i discovered for myself is the motivation which is very important and effects the DR as well.
with a fast descend i get a quick,stronger vasoconstriction feeling but the equalization is harder and the diaphragm gets stiff very easy which gives me a mental stress feeling
watts:
yes, if i jump in dry and dive the DR is stronger and stress effects my DR as well, thats the survival shock which i use a lot, like let cold water in the suit or take the mask of... or use the AC in the car etc.

FRC to 80m? i have been on a full inhale at 83m and now i m working on deep dives with less air but i not training to go to 80m on FRC.
i find that the flexibility of my diaphragm is not enough or the blood shift is too slow for the descend speed?

any thoughts about that?

Hi Hi Wolf,

Thanks for your great answers, I find your preparation dive times very long.

For me preparation dives are out of the window.
I dress up in a 3mm thin suit for diving in cold water. In this way I have a limited time window before I cool too much and start shivering uncontrollable. Being too cold doesn't work for me, I have much less O2, muscle tensioning, lack of flexibility.
So for a deep dive I pre pair on land, drink some herbal thee, eat a banana, have a hot long shower, do some warm up exercises for the main muscle groups, chest and diaphragm, stretch, dress up warm, go to competition site. Mentally visualise my dive, repeat my points of focus attention, such as arm on chest, gentle small strokes, speed, mouth full in time, etc. At the diving site I wait for 25-35min before OT, put on my thin suit, and on top my jacket, sit or lay down out of the wind to remain warm. 8 minutes before OT I put on my fin, wait on the edge for the 5min. Than I get hang on the line for the competition line for 3-4 minutes, breathing slowly, eyes closed, finding focus. Last time deeper out, gently full in, pre equalise, and go.
The first 25m is usually 1,1m/s gently pushing through. Than I continue while easing of my stroke until about 35-40m, equalising from my lungs. At about 40 I take a modest mouth full, have my hand beside me the other on my nose, eyes closed and fall like a rock, focussing on relaxation and gently equalising. It's like a cool short static, falling ~1m/s. After a certain time I expect the end of the rope, so I elevate my attention level just in time to react to seeing the final marked stretch of line, grab and brake the line with left hand, swing around and get the tag with my right, open up my hood with left, tuck the tag in, put both hands up in mono fin style, commence the ascent with about 0,9 - 1,2m/s. My dive to 65m takes about 2'08".
I carried in salt Swedish waters 1 KG of weight.

My longest deep record dives are about 2'50" - 3'. When Swam slower, thicker suit less hydrodynamic.

Timo recommended me to swim faster, carry more weight to speed up the falling.
I think I first can work on hydrodynamics, by using for instance a nose clip over my sphere mask, freeing up my hands.

FRC to 80m? i have been on a full inhale at 83m and now i m working on deep dives with less air but i not training to go to 80m on FRC.
i find that the flexibility of my diaphragm is not enough or the blood shift is too slow for the descend speed?

Click to expand...

You're naming causes, but not your problem?
I guess you may mean you don't have the air to equalise al the way down?

When do you take your final Mouth full?

I've read the suggestion to reverse pack continuously air into your mouth.

Maybe your flexibility is hampered by the shock and cold?

Maybe your dosing in your equalisation is a bit too rich, so you have to little left in your mouth for that final equalisation at 75m.

My suggestion is to change your set up a bit, wear a thinner suit, 3mm, with a sleeveless 3mm vest under it, to keep your chest and diaphragm warm for good equalising.
With a thinner suit you'll go into glide earlier, but the fall goes less fast down the line.
With earlier glide it's also easier to focus on bringing air up to mouth and equalising with small equalisations.

Also limit your warm up dives, for me they are cool down dives, warmth is so important for relaxation and equalising. Change your 'warm up' routine so you can put yourself into diving mode out of the water.
When I get into my final 3 minutes before OT, I get into diving mode for only 50%, the first 25m are active and thus it is still only 50%. When I start slowing down my swimming THAN I get into the most enjoyable 50-100% diving mode range. When the lights go out, at around 50m, ~48 seconds into the dive, I get into deep divine diving mode range of 90-100% relaxation, surrender and feeling totally at ease and at home in the ocean.
In other words it's not too bad to not to have the 100% dive mode at the beginning of the dive. Actually I think it's nicer to find yourself going into it as you fall into it

Love, Courage and Water,

Kars

Another question,

Does Co2 trigger Vascular constriction?

- Or does Co2 only triggers the VC responce by association?

Kars

kars, this is an example of training session, usually after the 3-4 training dives i go for recreational dives, for another 2-3 hours with some spearos around here or by myself.. to finish training with something nice

on a max dive i prepare completely different of course and use my 3-mm with no weights.
i m not running out of air for the equalization, i always try to fill it again after i used some air, but f.e. on a FRC + 50m i m free-falling fast and i feel that there is something different in my torso/diaphragm, may be the blood shunt..

Ffluppo, are you aware that your 83 m is 13 m below your national record? Assuming it was CWT. If it was without fins, it would be almost 30 m more than the NR. Perhaps it is time for having it confirmed by an AIDA judge. I know you told me you do not have time for competing, but it does not necessarily need a lot of time. It looks like there are no AIDA freediving events in Spain, but you could come over to France for a day or two - for example at CIPA in Nice, they dive all year long, have AIDA judges, so could certify your depth as a national record anytime. Though if you abandoned inhale diving altogether, it may be difficult to switch back from FRC. Or do you do more than 70 m on FRC too? In such case you could beat the national record on FRC, which would be amazing.
And if we spoke about Spanish national records, then there do not seem to be any of them registered yet at AIDA (do Spanish compete only under CMAS? Or not at all?). So if you have a Spanish passport too, you could set the Spanish NR too. At least untill the end of the year 2008, you can switch nationalities as often as you want (if you own a valid passport for that country). In 2009 there is a change in the rules planned, limitting the nationality changes, but it does not apply now yet.

Please qualify "something different in my torso/diaphragm", describe the feeling and the difference with the normal please.

Maybe it is the speed that is faster than you bloodshift is able to fill your alveoli, creating a bigger pressure on your torso/diaphragm?

As to test this, do a Free immersion with fin(s) and do the same as you usually do for a deep FRC, but take more time to fall down (brake using the line). What you can also do is go down to 50 as fast as you are used to, and do a little hang there to see if your bloodshift is able to catch up and relieve the pressure situation.

How fast are your deepest FRC dives?

Kars

Hello all,

I'm sorry to be such a noob but could someone explain what is "Exhale Diving"? It sounds like something that might help me catch some fish. I am new and very much amateur. I dive to 10ft and by the time I touch the ground I have to hurry up and swim up.. Yes very laughable.

Also what is FRC or CNF???

What breath-holding techniques should I start with? This forum is so informative but yet, it left me in the dust not knowing what you all are talking about.. Help please...:crutch

Thanks in advanced...

Well, if you read this thread from the beginning, you find your questions answered perfectly, even probably better than you expected. You can also have a look at the sticky thread in the beginners section of the DB forum, that also includes a dictionary of terms used in the freediving slang - that may help you understanding the posts on DB better.

trux and cdavis..

Thank you very much for your posts. I'll check out the stickies and beginners section and probably go back and read from the beginning of the this thread. Got a lot o' learnin' to do..:martial

Connor: what are these dives that you are doing (the 3:20 ones) pool dynamic, or those static/dynamic combos?

Seeing Davide Carrera's minimalist breathe up (more like 'undetectable') makes interesting thinking. Even Eric's seemed more aggressive. I do a mix of both, no packing either, and they seem to work. Shallow diaphragm breathing, about 30 to 40%, not too slow, (say 2 mins) two agressive purges, 30 seconds more shallow diaphram to slow HR again, full inhale and go. My dive times seem to have almost doubled in the past year for a given comfort zone.

Regarding coffee, when one hears "stiff coffee" from an American, I'll assume that your not talking about Dunkin Donuts stuff? (removes tongue from cheek)

take care.

Hi Connor,

Saw your email, I'm in website design purgatory so I've not had a chance to respond.

Quickly, more and more I think each person is different. I would look less to others for "the way to do it" and just keep experimenting.

For Davide, I imagine it is less about the breathe up and more about freediving five days a week for hours at a time for years that make him such a stupendous freediver. :duh

I'm so excited that you've been able to consistently do this since we talked last June. It's great to get info from someone else who uses FRC on a regular basis.

As far as the "purges", doesn't sound like what I would normally associate with the term.

I personally have stuck to invisible breathing aka sub neutral. Eric breathes more aggressively as conditions warrant. Sounds like you may have stumbled on something that works for you.

For me, if my body is ready/conditioned/responsive to immersion and pressure, breathing aggressively or even less than aggressively just introduces doubt about recovery.

Have you tried anything with a faster swim / more CO2 and leg burn?

For example, 1'30" static, 1'00" - 1'30" swift swim (30-35 seconds per 25m)?

I've been playing with straight FRC near-sprint dynamics of late in preparation for Nationals in Montreal. Oddly enough it feels better than on inhale, but we'll see about 02!

Pete

Ha, that should read 30-35 seconds per 50m, not 25m....