Exhale Diving for the "average" diver

[ktreloar]

hey crew,

been a while since my last post. The water where i have been diving has been in the coldish around 12-15 degrees. Been having mixed results one weekend i went out and was able to do easy 2 min frc dives with a gun in hand down to 20m. Then two weeks later it wasnt as easy and i really seemed to feel the cold even though there wasnt much change in the temperature. On a humourous note went diving in 26m of water and there must have been a pretty nasty thermacline just off the bottom, the dive was fine until BAM and i started to shiver straight away LOL pretty weak in a two piece 5mm beauchat suit

hmm pool diving has been much the same really need to get a suit that keeps me warm in the pool, any ideas?!?!?! pool temp is about 25 degrees.

best times are around 3:30 to 3:45 just depends what i have done during the day before hand.

cheers guys

Ktreloar

 

[cdavis]

Kars: Never figured out mouthfil (yet). I'm down to the point it would be very useful. I'm BTV to about 60 ft on exhale and frenzel from there.

Ktreloar: Getting cold early is about the only negative I've found to exhale (frc) diving. Mostly just comes with the territory. There have been a couple of threads (by E Fattah, I think) about eating some oils and supplements that burn hot in the liver and keep you warmer. I've tried some of that with mixed results. Fondueset uses coconut oil and something else.

Connor

 

[ktreloar]

cdavis,

yes there is something to being cool when you dive, i find that there is a sweet spot for my body temperature. But if i go hotter or colder my dive times arent as good. I think the best temp for me to dive is when my body feels the cold but doesnt shiver. Hmm did some pool training two nights ago, starting finally get the hang of sub neutral breathing and discovered what a huge difference it can make when it is done right. Total dive time was around 3:45 and distance covered was 30m (could have gone further but was worried how comfortable the dive already was ) contractions didnt kick in until 2:42. also finding that even on frc if i dive to 25m i can still bring up air from lungs, where as when i first started frc max depth for bringing up air was around 15m. just a question cdavis during your breath do restrict your breathing a little, so that you only use i small amount of your diaphram to breathe?!?

I have also backed the training off a little still train up to 5/6 times a week but just work on different areas. Also having changed to a physical job means i dont have to do as much as before just started playing underwater hockey twice a week as well seems to help a fair bit with lactic acid tolerance.

cheers

Ktreloar

 

[Kars]

How is playing UW Hockey on FRC?

 

[cdavis]

K; I've gone to the 'no breathup' style, with a small amount of purging(using diaphragm only) at the end. Too many years of long slow deep breathing in the water make it impossible for me to not breath like that if I just relax, so I developed a conscious pattern of about 1/4-1/5 breaths, diaphragm only, let it out slowly around my tongue, pause 3 seconds or so at top and bottom. Works out to about 5 per minute, about the same as if you simply let the body breath what it wants.

My results look very much like yours.

 

[ktreloar]

cdavis,

cheers mate that answers my question. Im to looking foward to the day that i crack 4 mins LOL interesting though in an ideal situation our pool times should be almost the same as our dive times. Looks like it just comes down to adaption and relaxation at pressure. Going training tonight so will see what the night brings. haha

Kars,

Hows it going? Underwater hockey on frc was really tiring when i first started doing it and the lactic acid build up was horrendous. But after 3 months of playing, the positives started to show like not having buoyancy issues and less CO2 build up, which for me means i can just about play one breathe hockey. HAHAH unless i go for a run on the wing

Look forward to hearing how your training is going guys...

regards,

Kyle Treloar

 

[fflupo]

hi guys

how about the DR anything changed/developed,.. do you feel stronger
- bradycardia
- increased bloodflow
- reduced bloodflow to non vital organs
- splenic contractions
- reduced primary urge to breath
or
- related things to pre dive face cooling
- peripheral vasoconstriction

and did you try to train the DR

???

 

[rddk]

What i noticed in doing lot of frc, is that i feel the peripheral vasocronstriction a lot more than before, about bradycardia dunno i'm natural bradycardic 43/46 per minute so i can't tell you if my heartbeat go slower o not, sure i got it when i go deep cuz i can feel it clearly but when u go deep is normal to have strong bradycardia. About urge to breath i can tell you that am a lot more friend to contractions at the beginning they pleasure me like a massage, but after a while not very friendly at all, but i think less hated than before i can manage them a lot better.

 

[cdavis]

Nearly all of my training is directed toward improving the DR. Its slow, but time to the first contraction/urge to breathe keeps getting longer and the period of mild contractions/minimal urge to breathe keeps getting longer. I think both are related to DR. Also , I'm diving significantly deeper. Either 1. chest flexibilty is improving (not likely) or 2. DR is shifting blood to the lungs faster, or 3. I'm cheating on the amt of air I inhale. Not absolutely sure which it is.

Connor

 

[harbour seal]

Nearly all of my training is directed toward improving the DR. Its slow, but time to the first contraction/urge to breathe keeps getting longer and the period of mild contractions/minimal urge to breathe keeps getting longer. I think both are related to DR.

Hello FRC Masters,

Immensely enjoying this ongoing discussion regarding your training and progress reports. You guys are getting some amazing results, way beyond what I would have imagined.

How are you gauging the onset of your own DR?

Wouldn't a shorter time to the first contraction mean an earlier DR? Yet, as your overall dive times improve you guys seem to have later and later break point times. Does this imply a later onset of DR (?) or is your heart rate dropping before this? or perhaps other factors signal your strengthening DR?

How do you guys gauge a strong Dive Response: onset time of break point? slowing of heart rate? lactic legs? overall dive time? ....

From reading old Seb Murat posts it seemed like his best FRC static+swim pool dives came from no breathe up at all (jump in pool and go), along with a higher pre-dive heart rate (higher anxiety), which was then followed by the onset of a strong DR, which he classified by sharper/earlier drop in HR, and dead legs at the end.

A few of the strongest DR that I ever experienced (while practicing FRC static+swim in the pool) came after having drank strong coffee, which I presume gave me an elevated pre-dive heart rate. During these dives I experienced extreme lactic legs, which rarely happens to me, and then near PB times/distance. I took the lactic legs as a sign of strong DR.

So, under what conditions do your best FRC dives come? ....do you first do warm-up dives, or exhale dives, how long is your breathe up, do you get lactic legs at the end....etc....

Just wanted to add that you guys are freekin' inspiring, keep up the amazing progress, and thanks for sharing with the rest of us!

Cheers,
Sean

 

[cdavis]

Thanks for the compliment, but I'm a master of nothing, plodding average is the right description.

Also, thanks for the coffee comment. I've become more and more suspicious that caffeine can be a benefit not a negative, at least in some senarios. This idea calls for a lot more experimentation.

DR. or what we think is DR, is a funny thing. Sebs logic and results are irrefutable, but his approach is also extremely uncomfortable, not my style at all. I can replicate a "strong" DR with a no warm up approach, but find it horrible. I think that we are exploring a slightly different path from Seb, using exhale diving to get more and more comfortable with both depth and time. This path is designed for serial diving, not the "one offs" that Seb did. Maybe its DR, maybe something else, maybe a combination, but whatever, its working. I know that I can bring on what I think is DR with less effort and time than in the past. Warmups take much less time for me. Laminar has had periods of being blood shifted all the time, I've seen a small piece of that. Doing short exhale statics dry, say 30 seconds to the first urge to breath, start breathing again and I can feel the blood flowing back into my legs. That for sure is blood shift, stronger and sooner than before exhale diving.

Lactic legs: very seldom get that. I swim so slow and avoid extremes so diligently, that's just not a factor. On long dives, they get tired and empty feeling, but not lactic. My best(longest) FRC dives are the most relaxed, well warmed up and before getting tired. Dives that start with the lowest possible heart rate, in the 50s for me.

Connor

 

[cdavis]

Missed something: Warm ups. In open water, it varies a lot, mostly 2 or 3 full exhale dives to 5-8 meters, then start diving. In the pool, its more interesting. I used to do some full forced exhales, 5 or 6, then start diving for time. Since losing my training partner, I do 10 or 15 forced exhales working up to multiple reverse pacs (working on depth). These, of course, are very short dives. Usually finish with one longer dive to gauge where my urge to breath will come, and then surface. This approach seems to result in extremely long times to the urge to breathe. It appears to be giving better DR, but maybe its just more time to relax. If I can get a spotter again, pretty sure I can break 4 minutes with 50 yards of swimming.

Connor

note to readers: be damn careful with forced exhales, you can hurt yourself.

 

[ktreloar]

Hey guys though i would add some updates,

On the DR for me it will usually depends on what hold i do. If i do a forced exhale dive into the struggle faze (haha with lots of contractions) my DR will kick in on the next dive. How ever i ease into the holds and only do them till the first urge to breathe it takes 5-10 holds to kick in. Finding that the harder i push the first few holds the better times i will get when i go for the longer FRC dives. Last weekend managed to do a fairly easy 4.00 min frc static on the bottom of the pool in about 1.5m of water. Could have gone further but got worried about the time i had already been down for. LOL

Lactic acid tolerance is really improving still the limiting factor but alot better than when i first started. Underwater Hockey seems to helping out with that haha constant sprinting with short hard fins LOL Tried some dynamic sets aswell 10x50m swims with only 20-30 seconds recovery between with short plastic fins, they felt alright the last 2 swims my legs start to burn but overall im really suprised how short my recovery time has gotten.

Cant wait to get to some deeper water haha unfortunetly where i live the cont. shelf is a long way off the coast. Its winter atm and the water vis is still crap however the other weekend managed to get out and do some dives in 26m of water with 30m vis. This is very uncommon this time of the year here. LOL Those dives werent to bad the ony limiting factor being the really cold thermacline at 22m haha i was hitting that and locking up LOL

Cheers guys looking forward to you updates.

Kyle Treloar

 

[fflupo]

hi all

thanx for the good feed back
have you tried with different masks googles or no mask and or doing a max dive with no warm up on frc? or from cold air in warm water ?
or other different stuff?
the lactic acid is a hard one, how long can you sprint for on frc?

i get sometimes, like in a zone where i can perform a FRC 5 min static at 10m easy compared to most of my other 5 min statics at pool-surface

 

[cdavis]

ktreloar,

Doing underwater hockey frc is really interesting. I would have thought that frc would not work for that kind of high intensity diving. Are you saving enough on buoyancy to make up for less 02 in the lungs? Is there any time for the normal frc static phase? Is your DR strong even though you are working at high intensity? Is there some other explanation?

Connor

 

[ktreloar]

Hey Connor,

Doing underwater hockey on frc is something i toyed with for a while, at first it was really hard my legs really gave way quicker than on inhale. However now that my legs have got used to the active sprinting with short rest the positives are really starting to shine through. Like being less bouyant still not quite negative due half lung capacity but close to neutral. When my legs got used of sprinting i could sprint alot faster and the recovery seems to be alot quicker.

My DR im trying to workout atm, if im playing in the backline where im not as active, generally have static phase my heart rate still drops quite noticably. Im not sure whether it is because of my fitness or my DR kicking in because im not moving. On another note i seem to be staying underwater longer on frc then inhale, could be a combination of DR and not having to fight the bouyancy. This might be contributing to my longer times, however if im working really hard and dont get a chance to rest my legs (aka one breath hockey where you only go up for one breathe of air), my legs will give way. Its interesting that my legs always seem to be the limiting factor and not my breathe hold.

Thoughts on whether this type of training is benifical i think in a way it is, with FRC the limiting factor seems to be related to lactic acid tolerance. Underwater hockey trains that alright lol espicially when every game has australian players playing. Im using under water hockey as more of a cardio work out then anything else, im finding that it is slowly pulling me out of this training rut im stuck in atm.

Hey fflupo,

just curious, i read in a more recent post that you also incorporate cardio into your training. What workouts do you do example... running, bicycle, rowing machine....


cheers guys,

Kyle Treloar

 

[fflupo]

i do 3 different kind of running for 2-3 month a year

general stamina 1.5 h and HR 150

normal speed HR 170 and some sprints to max. HR

apnea walking/cycling or running with as little breathings as needed

 

[ktreloar]

hey fellow FRC divers.

Just thought i would chuck on an update, hmm just been doing alot of pool statics and few static/dynamic combinations. Exhale statics are getting more contast around 4 mins on the bottom of the pool. Full exhales are now up to 3 mins haha not the most pleasant holds lol Started doing more serial 10x50m with 20-30 seconds recovery between, not sure whether these are helping but time will tell. Atm im sought of stuck in a bit of rut cant seem to get any substancial gains.


Hey Fflupo,

Cheers for the reply, just a quick one mate how often would you be doing cardio during the week? Im usually trying to do at least three a week, combined with pure breath hold training as well. Underwater hockey twice a week and one session where i do lots of serial frc sprints. Just curious mate if you think im doing enough cardio. Just trying to find optimum amount of cardio to help increase my FRC dive times. I have to be careful, in the past i found it really easy to overtrain with cardio. Thanks mate.

Hey Connor

Hows your training going mate? Have you found a training partner?

Cheers guys

Kyle Treloar

 

[fflupo]

hi kyle

for sure your cardio stamina should be good enough due your uw hockey!

on FRC how long can you sprint for in the pool, means no glide constant kicks?

and are your legs burning big time after the sprint? do you monitor any HR etc. after dive and 3 min after?


i go 5 times a week for 2-3 month/year

 

[efattah]

i go 5 times a week for 2-3 month/year

Five times a week, 1.5 hours of running each time? So 7.5 hours of running per week?