Fin Lineup - Any Questions?

[Mark Laboccetta]

Beating/seeing is believing...

This morning judging from some of the uncertainty on the strength of these fins we decided to undertake a unofficial test of C4 and Omer Bat fins without either of their approval

http://www.omerdiving.com/fintest.htm

or direct link(right-click & save target as):
http://www.omerdiving.com/newphotos/MVC-001V.MPG

This should offer those with some doubt a little reassurance of the strength of these blades. The only blades that shattered and broke as expected were the Millenium Competition polymer fins, and we sell thousands of pairs of these fins each year without any structural problems, to give you an idea of how hard I slammed them. They are also the same fins we used to sell to Riffe under the Pez Fuerte and Silent Hunter name.

Fins under any real conditions wouldn't be subjected to such abuse


edit: fixed URL & added direct link

 

[unirdna]

Rabih,

Thanks for your input, and welcome to the forum.

You've used waterways and BAT's......would you say that the thickness of the two fins are comparable? The [online] photos of the matrix/waterway blades always looked thin to me. But from what you've said, they seem comparable . If this is the case, it could be said that the Specialfin Pro blads are a significantly different 'kind' of plastic than the traditional fiberglass. This is because my stereopro blades are very thin (comparable to carbon fiber). My fins are essentially 'kelpie' fins, minus the camo pattern.

I'm not saying that thick is better than thin, or vise versa. Merely that there may be a very prudent difference between the two types of fiberplastic that seems to have gone unmentioned.

Sven is the only cat I know that has tried waterway/matrix, kelpie (stereopro), BAT's, and C4's. So where you at sultan of suck .

Ted

 

[w3ac]

@ Pez

We are about the same weight depending on how good dinner was . Anyway, I have read your previous post on mounting the blade upside down and how it affects blade performance. I tend to really power up on the extension and let the blade return or snap back to it's original position. This is probably due to using Cressi's for years. Jim was saying that he uses a slow smooth kick cycle so the #2's work well for him. I tend to power up for the first 4 or 5 cycles then I'll slow it down but open up my kicks. Not really sure if this is the best technique but Brett LeMaster wrote about it in HSD once. Anyway, I was thinking of going up to #4's. I got an extra set of OMER pockets and could use the #2 for blue water and shallow reef but break out the #4 when we start bombing the ledges. Thanks for the help guys.

Brad

 

[Rabih]

Bat vs Waterway

Hi Ted,

Both blades (BAT and Waterway) are made from exactly the same material and the same fiberglass overlay. The Bat is cut shorter and reinforced at the edges with another layer of fiberglass for protection against rocks etc... This makes the BAT, in combination with millenium pockets and the camo color, slightly better than the waterway.

Performance wise, they're one of the same. 30=3, 40=4 etc...

Regards,
Rabih

 

[Bill]

Thanks Mark. If a picture is worth a thousand words then.................
Aloha
Bill

 

[w3ac]

I second Bill's notion. Impressive stuff Mark. Maybe I gotta coin up and go with the C4. BTW couldn't sling you any karma and when I try to share the love, it says do I approve my post. Anyone else having this happen?

Brad

 

[ash]

Mark - that's a thought provoking video, thanks for posting it.

It's hard to get my head round the concept that those fragile looking C4 blades lived through the "forklift test" D the new standard in blade strength testing?) while the plastic blades didn't. I would have put money down on the C4s ending up as a mess of little pieces, so consider me impressed.

Ash

 

[Jon]

Great video!

I think I might just have to add a pair of 30's to my dive locker by then end of the summer. I guess that also means I'll have some stuff for the E-bay pile- but want to wait until after
Freedive-A-Palooza before I dump them so that other's can try them out and see what they like best.

I was some what shocked to see that the C4's could take that kind of a hit, since my original pair of Sporasub Pures cracked under a lot less stress than that- luckily I got them replaced under warranty, but not until after I was forced to freedive with whale sharks while wearing a crappy little pair of snorkeling fins.

I guess that it shouldn't come as too much of a surprise that carbon fiber can handle some stress, since so many bike frames are made out of it- and they can handle crashes on the road. It must all be in the way in which it's laid out and bonded together.

I'd be very interested in trying out a pair of 30's, but I have already used the BAT 30's and have no need to try them again. I thought that they were better than plastic, but not as nice for surface swimming. They were good underwater, but just not up the same standards as my C4's.

BTW: What's your impression of of the 25's vs. the 30's?

Jon

 

[Jon]

I think the reason we can't give Mark any karma is because he has an apostrophe in his signature. The same problem happened with Frank O'Donnell.


Jon

 

[Mattedhead]

Labo-
Thanks for the video it was hysterical....yet finally answered a question that I posted a few weeks back in this forum under the "Carbon Fin" thread:

########
I have a friend who was in Italy recently and spoke to the owner of C4 about his fins. He stated that his recent fins are actually very resilient. And that they are much more impact resistant than plastic blades and are approachingor surpassing that of fibreglass blades, while retaining superior performance characteristics. Much of the hype about carbon blades being fragile seems to be misplaced...at least in c4's case. I have heard about tons of the Sporasub Pure and Variant carbons snapping under normal use, but I have plenty of friends diving the c4's who are abusing them on reef, rock, and wrecks and they have all held up very well. The only breakage I have heard of occured in a boat as the blades were stepped on.

Second-hand accounts aside, I was wondering if any of you have actually snapped a pair of C4's during normal use? If you did, what were the circumstances, and how easy was it to get them replaced under their warranty??? I am just wondering how much of the "carbon fragility hype" stems from, "my friend's , uncle's brother-in law has a friend whose brother cracked a pair of carbon fins.....so on and so forth". I am considering a pair of c4's for my deeper diving/spearfishing, and I am curious what type of experience you guys have had with this.
##########

I guess you summed it up...take it easy...tell Lydia I said hello. Also, is Jane in WB? Marian said something to me the other day about it, but I couldn't figure out what she was talking about. Anyways, I'll save it for an email-

Matt

Oh, I was wrong--I thought your calling was journalism...maybe it is in video production after all.

 

[icarus pacific]

you wanna fondle my WHAT??

Originally posted by unirdna
Sven is the only cat I know that has tried waterway/matrix, kelpie (stereopro), BAT's, and C4's. So where you at sultan of suck .
Ted

I'm right here, oh Prince of Puds. :hmm

Whenever it's convenient, Mark. And thanks for the video. I was thinking of doing the same stress test to this euro :girlie gun I ran across the other day. I'll also get in touch with Stu here- he's got a pair of BAT 30's and swears by them. Him being a dakine No CAl guy and all, you know his take is smooth.

 

[icarus pacific]

Originally posted by rigdvr
...Sven hasnt been less than 180# since third grade!:t

Aww, Mike, you're killin' me! I don't think I've laughed so much since I heard the KK'03 CD was in the mail!! rofl rofl rofl


:hmm

 

[rigdvr]

b/c of date conflicts I wont be at the kraze this year so I am sending ALL the dvd's to Andy or Aquiles and yall will have to have a screening party one night and everyone must wear sponge bob pj's....

 

[Mark Laboccetta]

Originally posted by Jon
I think the reason we can't give Mark any karma is because he has an apostrophe in his signature. The same problem happened with Frank O'Donnell.

Oh no, this sounds like a dire problem that needs to be resolved I haven't picked up on this karma thing you all are talking about but if anyone wants to dive in the Hatteras meet this summer I'll be glad to swing some your way. Good karma is a necessity on most of the southern hospitality spearfishing trips we do unless we're getting the crap beat out of us on a rough day...

I enjoyed reading everyone's reactions this morning to the smack test. Thank you fellas.

A few quickies:

while the plastic blades didn't. I would have put money down on the C4s ending up as a mess of little pieces, so consider me impressed.

Ash- There wasn't even so much as a scratch on the C4 40 blade I slammed, that's what impressed me. I wanted to use a 40 since it has less give than a 30 and I figured it was the weaker of the two. It's back in stock again

I guess that it shouldn't come as too much of a surprise that carbon fiber can handle some stress, since so many bike frames are made out of it- and they can handle crashes on the road. It must all be in the way in which it's laid out and bonded together.BTW: What's your impression of of the 25's vs. the 30's?

Jon- you hit a key point here. Imagine when I visited the factory the owner wouldn't let me go watch how they make the blades.
Curious as I am I was a bit annoyed I had come all that way but I understood. I think it's really an art and to make products correctly out of carbonfiber and it requires in depth undersanding of the properties of the material and how to work it which only comes with lot's of trial and error. If you don't make it right it's brittle and breaks, the first ones he made ten years ago for Omer did. C4's pretty well known for carbon fiber road bike frames in Europe, fins and guns are only a small part of the company's work he got into the last ten years for fun since he likes to spearfish. I wouldn't bother with the 25's too soft, if you try a pair of 30's you'll see they're softer and more powerful than a standard stifness plastic or fiber blade.

I guess you summed it up...take it easy...tell Lydia I said hello. Also, is Jane in WB?Marian said something to me the other day about it, but I couldn't figure out what she was talking about.

Matt :inlove- This is no place to be discussing my sister in law, nor my nickname, please leave her alone before you get in trouble
:naughty :crutch

Whenever it's convenient, Mark. And thanks for the video. I was thinking of doing the same stress test to this euro gun I ran across the other day. I'll also get in touch with Stu here- he's got a pair of BAT 30's and swears by them.

Sven- and you should see the stess tests we've done on the medieval furniture you call spearguns :t Oh oh, did I loose all my karma now

 

[Mattedhead]

Come on Mark...your hurting feelings now. :waterwork I would never infringe upon Wazlak's turf like that...hehe. Just curious what she was doing in town. Sooo can I get the digits or what??? :blackeye

-Matty

Be looking for an email on UW Hockey

 

[Murat]

Just curious, is this 2 years warranty from Technosport or from factory in ITALY???? The reason i am asking is, if i break the blade may i say to italy, hey look i know mark in usa whoes giving 2 years warranty for them so can you replace my blades plz?...rofl


And i liked the furniture test for the tree trunks, lets send the our CF guns to sven and let him to smash them to the table and we will see how much heat his tree trunks in the furniture handle rofl

BTW still waiting for anyone whoes knows the prices of the C4 in italy....

 

[Mark Laboccetta]

new identity

I have a new identity for Deeper Blue..."multiple internet personality disorder" I guess. Well this one is my real name.

Murat, as per the guidelines set forth by the CE Standards of the European Community, all manufacturers are required to provide a minimum of 2 years coverage on all their products from now on. The stamp below is an example for C4 which comes on all their fins but its the same for Omer and I assume the other manufacturers whose products are made in Europe.

Mark

 

[Murat]

Re: new identity

Originally posted by Mark Laboccetta
I have a new identity for Deeper Blue..."multiple internet personality disorder" I guess. Well this one is my real name.
Mark

Huh?
rofl

Mark, can you write article or post something about comparision between C4 25,30,40 Bat 30,40 ? ? ?

 

[icarus pacific]

As soon as Jon and I get our sets, we'll clue you in Murat.

 

[ivan]

Matrix fins

hi

Today I arrived home from work and ran inside and sure enough the big brown box was waiting with my blades inside and now im the proud owner and first Aussie to buy Matrix fins from Paul and Dennis at 20 fathoms damn cool.

After getting them out I was immediately impressed by the weight of these darn things they weigh bugger all, and extremely thin you can't tell by pics on the net but these things are really thin and sharp

I then went to pull apart my millenium comps which wasn't too much of a hastle but trying to put the sides of the footpockets onto the blades was fairly hard I simply just pushed them until they went over but im sure there is a better way to do this

Coupla questions for you matrix guys out there.

1. How far are these blades meant to be pushed into the pocket, are the side rails of the pockets meant to fit up flush with the T rails of the fins, I can't get them this far there is roughly a 1cm gap. :head

2. Stupid question but how do you know where to drill the holes and do you drill them when the blades are in the pockets or take them off and drill them and what size drill do you use. Im am in no way shape or form a handyman so I don't really trust myself to do this. :hmm


The fins look really cool and like everyone else says when you bend them they sure snap back a lot quicker than the millenium comps. They don't feel all that stiff even though they are 5# stiffness but Im sure they are efficient, and if it wasn't for a cyclone forming off our coast I would be out there trying them tommorow.

cheers