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GeckoSub Mirage Evo - And Adventures in 3D Printing Speargun Parts

Aha, this explains a lot - we have been talking about different systems all along, haha.
But it's not gibberish Zahar, it's just a different system than what you are used to. But one that has worked in practice for +40 years. Maybe you don't agree with the design but the operation sequences I have described are how the gun was intended to be used by its designers.

Here's an old thread where Ulysses, Pete & Tomi explain the design well, all in the first page:

And Tomi's sketch:
View attachment 60828


Why Did They Fail - Pete Offers An Explanation
Also, it's quite the beloved gun in the Mediterranean but some of the parts let it down and it was too expensive so it went out of production. But as explained, I don't think the valves actually broke. At least I have never seen that I and I have shot two original ones quite a lot.
I found an old post of Pete's where he talks about how the seal on the power regulator (the one sealing against the handle) would leak but not from use:



Correction
I have been talking about how Mares had a 5 bar max limit for the rear chamber. That is wrong, my memory played a trick on me. Their own manual says that 5 pumping strokes will take a 30bar gun down to "0 bar". Apologies.

I am also attaching two Mirage manuals here
Aha, this explains a lot - we have been talking about different systems all along, haha.
But it's not gibberish Zahar, it's just a different system than what you are used to. But one that has worked in practice for +40 years. Maybe you don't agree with the design but the operation sequences I have described are how the gun was intended to be used by its designers.

Here's an old thread where Ulysses, Pete & Tomi explain the design well, all in the first page:

And Tomi's sketch:
View attachment 60828


Why Did They Fail - Pete Offers An Explanation
Also, it's quite the beloved gun in the Mediterranean but some of the parts let it down and it was too expensive so it went out of production. But as explained, I don't think the valves actually broke. At least I have never seen that I and I have shot two original ones quite a lot.
I found an old post of Pete's where he talks about how the seal on the power regulator (the one sealing against the handle) would leak but not from use:



Correction
I have been talking about how Mares had a 5 bar max limit for the rear chamber. That is wrong, my memory played a trick on me. Their own manual says that 5 pumping strokes will take a 30bar gun down to "0 bar". Apologies.

I am also attaching two Mirage manuals here
For 40 years people have been using the Mirage gun without using the second barrel! Just as many do not use the power regulator at all and simply throw it out of the gun! There are not enough statistics on the use of the second barrel! Most people do not have the necessary knowledge and even more simply do not read the instructions!
 
DAVID! In all this arguing I missed the most important thing! You actually have a vacuum pump built on the second barrel! If you set the power regulator to minimum, you can pump out all the air from the first barrel and simply insert the harpoon into the gun without any effort! In this case, you cannot use the power regulator rod to equalize the pressure in the first barrel and receiver! You must use a check valve, making it a composite with a separate rod!
 
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Any Italian gun with a power regulator has a check valve to bypass pressure from the barrel to the receiver! By increasing the bypass area of this valve, you will have a minimum valve gun with step loading, which significantly simplifies loading the gun! ncreasing the power of the gun with a second barrel requires time and manipulations that the fish will not wait for! If the issue of increasing the power of the gun is the main one, and the ability to load the gun is insufficient, then it makes sense to 1. Increase the bypass section of the check valve and provide step-by-step loading! 2. Pump out the air from the barrel! Everything is transparent and clear! A mirage with two barrels is a mistake of Nature!

Well, we will have to disagree on two things;)

Your "fish simply wont wait" is a statement that is sadly not universally true. I wish it was though.
But allow me to explain as I have been fortunate enough to hunt in enough different places and countries that I know there are differences. I have been on reefs in Indonesia where a polespear (fastest reloading possible) was the smartest weapon for the small fish we were after on that particular spot. You could shoot three fish on one dive if you were good enough - like when you see the Hawaiian masters three-pronging Kole.

On the other end of the spectrum is the very island I live on now where we have perhaps 100s of spearos hitting the local reefs day and night. Here, even "suicidal" fish like trevally and "stupid" fish like coral trout or checkered snappers will keep their distance and surely disappear for a long while after the first shot. Whereas the very same species on reefs in Thailand would stick around and faster reloading would indeed be nice, here it simply doesn't matter if reloading takes 10 secs or two minutes. Furthermore, I dive relatively deep and having a freediving background I keep surface intervals long enough that I have more than enough time to load any type of gun. Actually, the past five years here, I have not once lost a fish because I couldn't load fast enough - that's just the name of the game here. In Thailand, I would shoot a jack and another one would come buzzing around as I was hanging the first one on the stringer - so there I missed fish because of reloading.

Then we have my best example to counter this statement but not because of fish behaviour: My most beloved spot is a dogtooth tuna spot in Indonesia where we mostly drift dive and where it's very rare we get more than one dive per drift. That's how fast the current is and how small the spot is. So, reloading time matters not here but maximum power certainly does - more than anything else.

So, in my experience in regards to "fish don't wait for reloading" - in some places they do, others they don't and sometimes your type of hunting doesn't even give you the time anyways.

Secondly, of course I don't agree that calling a working gun for "a mistake of nature";).
The things you say would break on the Mirage system don't actually break on production Mirages. Other things did, sadly.
But I fully respect that you prefer other design solutions. And maybe the solution you are used to is better in some ways. I can't judge that as I am not familiar with it.

Finally, if by "step-by-step loading" you are referring to a design like the Sten, then that doesn't come close to a Mirage in ultimate power. Yes, the check valve means you (feel like you) can load the gun easier. But with same the power of your muscles, like I explained, if I can load a Sten at 22 bar, I can load a Mirage at +35bar which is a whole lot more power going into the shot. Not that it's often needed but sometimes it is.
 
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DAVID! In all this arguing I missed the most important thing! You actually have a vacuum pump built on the second barrel! If you set the power regulator to minimum, you can pump out all the air from the first barrel and simply insert the harpoon into the gun without any effort! In this case, you cannot use the power regulator rod to equalize the pressure in the first barrel and receiver! You must use a check valve, making it a composite with a separate rod!
Ah, yes, I think I remember now looking into that system some years ago. I don't want to offend anyone - but would that be something like a Zelinka system? I don't know enough to know what system to start looking at for inspiration.
 
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For 40 years people have been using the Mirage gun without using the second barrel! Just as many do not use the power regulator at all and simply throw it out of the gun! There are not enough statistics on the use of the second barrel! Most people do not have the necessary knowledge and even more simply do not read the instructions!
I am pretty sure that before you or I signed up on this forum there were spearos here using the Mirage as intended for a long while. Pete gave up on his, I guess after some years because of the leaks but he used it at 40 bar. Not long ago there was still a bit of a "cult" of Italians devoted to using theirs - maybe they still do. I know this because I used to spend hours on their forums reading and learning. Some give up on it because of the external leaks or realizing that they don't need a 30-40 bar gun after all and then it just makes sense to get a reliable Predathor, Asso, Sten, etc.

But actually, and I forgot to mention that since I down-sized the gun, my main reason for sticking with this system is for the increase in power because I still want to make a much longer and very powerful tuna gun;). I just don't need that on this island, so I downsized it but I am thinking ahead for the longer gun. But I am open to other systems as well, this is just the one I know the best. And whatever system I adopt has to be neutral in the water and best if I can still make it with a few stock parts.

Also, since I now have a freediving girlfriend that is slowly getting into spearfishing I realized a Mirage system can also be really helpful to her. Even a regular vacuum pneumatic Italian style gun needs close to 18-20 bar to really start performing and no way she can load a gun like that. But a Mirage with 20-22 bar in it would be easy enough for her. So, that's another reason why I am reconsidering them for shorter guns, too:)
 
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DAVID! In all this arguing I missed the most important thing! You actually have a vacuum pump built on the second barrel! If you set the power regulator to minimum, you can pump out all the air from the first barrel and simply insert the harpoon into the gun without any effort! In this case, you cannot use the power regulator rod to equalize the pressure in the first barrel and receiver! You must use a check valve, making it a composite with a separate rod!

Actually, for the longer gun I have in mind - the bluewater dogtooth tuna gun - I was probably not going to have a full length pre-pumping barrel like on the Mirage. A few reasons I'd rather not:

- It becomes quite annoying having to use a 155-160cm shaft as a pumping rod...
- If I don't use the Mirage style full length pumping barrel, I can slim down the front of the reservoir/tank which would make the gun easier to maneuver
- If I switch to a shorter, built-in Mirage system pump, I could pump the gun up on the boat before the drift drops - then all I would need to do, jump in the water and insert the shaft against the very low final pressure and flick the switch and be ready for the tuna;). It would take more pumps but that doesn't matter with this very specific type of hunting. This would be safer than having a loaded gun on the boat yet still give really fast and very easy loading once in the water.

I have already been sketching up some guns where the pumping rod is shorter and built-in to the gun. Well, into the handle so you would push it from the rear, not the front like now.
But any system that can accomplish the same, I'm open to checking them out:)
 
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Ah, yes, I think I remember now looking into that system some years ago. I don't want to offend anyone - but would that be something like a Zelinka system? I don't know enough to know what system to start looking at for
Ah, yes, I think I remember now looking into that system some years ago. I don't want to offend anyone - but would that be something like a Zelinka system? I don't know enough to know what system to start looking at for inspiration.
No! This is not the Zelinsky system! This is the Continent system with a valve release on my diagram with a vacuum pump! It is simply more adapted to work! Your gun can also be used with a vacuum pump because you already have one! Only minor modifications are needed! Then you will be able to pump the gun to the maximum on land and easily insert the harpoon in the water!
.
 
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No! This is not the Zelinsky system! This is the Continent system with a valve release on my diagram with a vacuum pump! It is simply more adapted to work! Your gun can also be used with a vacuum pump because you already have one! Only minor modifications are needed! Then you will be able to pump the gun to the maximum on land and easily insert the harpoon in the water!
 
No! This is not the Zelinsky system! This is the Continent system with a valve release on my diagram with a vacuum pump! It is simply more adapted to work! Your gun can also be used with a vacuum pump because you already have one! Only minor modifications are needed! Then you will be able to pump the gun to the maximum on land and easily insert the harpoon in the water!
"Continent", got it. Thanks Zahar.
I will add that to the reading list and look into it once I find time to start on the next project:)
 
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Yes!
What is the function of the uper valve, the ower pressure valve..? What might hapen withot it? When should it activate?

The upper valve is necessary to equalize the pressure P = P2 in the normal loading mode and when pumping out air P2 in the vacuum pump mode in the second barrel! The cross-sectional area of this valve must be increased! The native valve has a very small cross-section!
 
The upper valve is necessary to equalize the pressure P = P2 in the normal loading mode and when pumping out air P2 in the vacuum pump mode in the second barrel! The cross-sectional area of this valve must be increased! The native valve has a very small cross-section!
I would say it has function only in "vacuum" pumping mode to prevent too high pressure in in orange colored barrel on the sketch.
 
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I would say it has function only in "vacuum" pumping mode to prevent too high pressure in in orange colored barrel on the sketch.
In a normal gun, it has a working function of pumping pressure when the gun is pumped with an external pump! But in this scheme, it has 2 functions!
 
New Bulkhead In The Making - Part 1
As mentioned, I am making a new bulkhead. Not sure it's needed but I wanted to try a new valve design I have had in mind for years. Also, it will making trying out different check valves easier.

I don't actually have Ø40mm rod in stock only Ø45mm and while it doesn't sound like a big difference it's a bit annoying having to go to the mini lathe to turn it down to ~38mm. So, will order 40mm for the future but when I made the last bulkhead I was smart enough to turn an extra blank:
EVO_MIRAGE_2025_3983_750pixA.JPG


As you can tell from the render in the background, I am "adding some lightweighting" with those two cutouts either side of the shooting barrel bore. May save me 2-3 grams...;)

Used the same, very simple fixture as last time around. It's a tighter fit on this blank though and I also added some superglue so will take a bit more work to get apart later on. (An original Mirage bulkhead in the foreground). The blank is a bit rough on the end face as I shortened it on the lathe + with a hacksaw but it will be machined away so no problem:
EVO_MIRAGE_2025_3986_750pix.JPG


On the last bulkhead, I cut the o-ring groove on the mini lathe before machining the rest on the CNC. Same with the nose cone, but on the small mini lathe on "bigger" parts like these, there's always the risk of chatter - which actually happened on one of the nose cone grooves but when it happens right when you get to final depth, you can't really tidy it up without having to cut a lot deeper and going to a thicker o-ring but my design generally doesn't allow that.

So, this time I wanted to try cutting the groove with a T-slot end mill on the CNC. It worked really well, the dimension is spot on and the floor finish looks great, too - not too surprised as I used the same strategy on the small peg for the pumping barrel on the first bulkhead. But now that I know it works, it's just a whole lot less stressful to do it on the CNC;)
I don't yet have a chamfer/dovetail cutter though so will have to chamfer the edges on the lathe later:
EVO_MIRAGE_2025_3992_750pix.JPG



Next up, that rugged faced was trimmed off and the bores for the two barrels and the power regulator valve were cut (top of pic):
EVO_MIRAGE_2025_4020_750pix.JPG

The raised lip will be rounded off later and form a seal against a valve cap of sorts with a gasket. Same as in a Salvimar or Scubapro gun, but mine will be a two stage design. More on that later.

Here the weight-saving cutouts are done:
EVO_MIRAGE_2025_4026_750pix.JPG


Then it was time to finish that rounded sealing lip but first, let's look at the CAD to get a better sense of its shape:
EVO_MIRAGE_2025_9022_750pix.JPG


I used a small bull nose end mill with tiny step overs to get that shape into the real world:
EVO_MIRAGE_2025_4033_750pix.JPG


Hard to tell but the fillet continues down into the bore about 3mm and is very, very smooth - close enough to the design for sure:)

I then spent a minute playing around with some gasket material to try to get a feel if the top of the lip was too sharp. Perhaps it is but that can be rounded in hand later on fairly easily. In case you're curious, it's about 0.55mm tall. A bit less than the same feature on the Salvimar:
EVO_MIRAGE_2025_4036_750pix.JPG


Despite our talks some weeks ago about how small a bore can be before the airflow starts getting choked, the valve opening is rather big. Actually the equavalent of a ~9.5mm cylindrical bore. Which means, there would be around 23kgf on the gasket with a ~30bar pressure differential on the valve. So, it's possible the lip is a bit too sharp and will work like a cookie cutter... But real world use will give the answer on that at some point. Another risk is the gasket being blown off of the valve cap during a shot so I would likely need to experiment with a few different types of glue. But I don't think that actually happens on the Pedathors but we will see.

As for the quality of the machining, actually all the tool paths up to this point had gone swimmingly. But I messed up slightly on the final chamfers though I didn't notice before I took the part out of the vise:(:
EVO_MIRAGE_2025_4050_750pix.JPG

The shooting barrel bore chamfer stops in the area where the power regulator bore lip is. Same with the outside, tiny edge break chamfer. Not the end of the world, I can use the grinder to sort it out. Or try my luck at indicating the part perfectly in the machine again and reprogram the tool path.
It's a bit silly because this "error" actually slows up clearly in the similation and the tool path overlay. I just didn't look hard enough...

Also, the floor finish of the lightweighting cutout isn't great. Not sure why as I chose what's supposed to be a "pretty" finishing strategy but it's strictly a tiny aesthetic issue.

Besides those two small issues, I am really happy with how this turned out. I am just a bit too worn out right now to do the backside. So, will save that for another day so I don't make any silly mistakes on it now.

On that note, I do write down all the tools I need and the program names to reduce the risk of me making mistakes. The program can export this as a PDF but I don't have a working printer in the workshop, haha:
EVO_MIRAGE_2025_4051_750pix.JPG


Six different tools for "Operation 1" - it would have been seven if I had had a backside chamfering cutter for the o-ring groove. Or I could have reduced it by one if I had been OK with the lightening cutouts being smaller - their size is governened by the inside corner radius. If I want the hole bigger the radius needs to be smaller which then means I need to use a smaller endmill;).

But these bulkheads are one-offs, not production parts, so whether I save a few mins on tool changes doesn't matter.

Will program and run Op 2 - the backside features tomorrow or on Monday.
 
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Regarding the absence of a safety valve.. If you are not going to go to more than 30 - 35 bar then maybe you don't need it. If it were to go to 40 bar, while without the safety valve, the pressure could maybe exceed 45 bar...? That could be dangerous...
 
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Regarding the absence of a safety valve.. If you are not going to go to more than 30-35 bar then maybe you don't need it. If it were to go to 40 bar, while without the safety valve, the pressure could exceed 45 bar...? That could be dangerous...
Yeah, I did think about it but as far as I know the alu reservoirs used by the Italian manufacturers are good up to at least 100 bar. But I will likely switch to one of my Chinese carbon reservoirs for this gun and though I have talked about it in the past I never actually blew one up to figure out how strong they really are. Maybe it's time to do that pretty soon...

If the bulkhead fails internal because of the pressure differential then that's likely not dangerous. As you know, the orginal safety valve only vents between the two chambers and as far as I understand it, Mares was more nervous about internal damage. At least this could be why they said to never pre-pump with more than 5 strokes.

All that said, the highest I have ever taken a Mirage is a bit over 33 bar. For 7-7.5mm shafts that's more than plenty. For a BW gun with a +8mm shaft, maybe more would be alright - but for that gun I am also toying around with the idea of going to 14-15mm pistons. I know, I know, it's more friction but it's also a ton more power for the same pressure so I think it would outweigh the friction issue. Just hope I can make the pistons strong enough. And anyhow, the bigger cross section area would allow me to drop the overall pressure in the system.
 
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How deep the power regulator O-ring pass by the edge of the entrance for pumping mode? Try to make it minimal, just sufficient for closing the entrance.. You already know this...
 
The sliding friction force does not depend on the contact area! It depends on the friction coefficient of the rubbing materials and the pressing force! The static friction force for rubber with metal depends on the contact area and is 10 times greater than the sliding friction force! The large barrel diameter allows for more efficient use of the pneumatic vacuum muzzle!
 
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