Herbert Nitsch : a -328m no limit dive ??

[cebaztian]

Intresting ideas Bill.
Competition licens.
Recreational diving is none of our business.
International aida ranking is.
To get ranking you need membership in aida.

In my local club in Sweden I get kicked out if i train alone. No more pool acess.
Aida could do the same. Membership only if you abide by the rules.

No training alone - a very simple rule - and we all more or less know what training is. Holding ones breath under water is training. At sea it involves a rope, in pool it involves length over 25 meters, and non moving breatholds more than a minute (could be a definition).
Of course I understand that this could evolve into a beurocratic document of rules defining what training is or is not. But why not leave that for the moment and just write into the statutes:

"Ranked athletes do not train alone - if they do - they get no ranking for 12 months".

Its a statement - a policy - we dont really have to organize a squadron of people investigating our athletes. The obvious cases will "surface" by themselves. In Sweden we had an athlete training alone (without the direct supervision of another freediver) - he will not get ranking ever again - he is dead.

Sebastian


PS But if Aida board wants to keep their atheletes alive they just need to monitor some 10-20 people in the ranks. The ones involved in NR/WR ballast dives. they are the ones getting DCS and dieing.

 

[trux]

Personally, I always agree with improving and forcing security, but in this case I am afraid the rule risks bringing more troubles than security. What evidence will be sufficient for disqualifying a competitor? Wisdom of another freediver, of any person, of AIDA officials? Who exactly will investigate and decide about the disqualification? Private detectives, other freedivers, AIDA officials, public jury? Does AIDA has the necessary stuff and resources to handle the additional agenda?

Such rule risks to be not only violated, but also abused - I can imagine freedivers denouncing each other to get rid of uncomfortable competitors. Well, I do believe freedivers are generally nice people, but I am persuaded that giving people such simple tool for eliminating competitors is not the best thing. If it is done, it must be done properly - very strong evidence must be presented, and the case must be properly investigated before punishing the freediver. I am not sure though whether AIDA has enough time and personnel to handle such cases appropriately.

 

[octopus]

I understand that we are talking about attempt to control training of freedivers. If my assumption is not correct, then please ignore the rest of the post.
Competition is completely different matter and I shall not refer to it.

There are two aspects of the problem.

1. Is it acceptable in principle to control out of competition activities (=training)?

Now, this is ethical question and depends very much on the norms one adopts. I appreciate safety side of the problem, but I think it is step too far to try to control the way people do their training. It goes against the very same ideas that are the basis of our society today. Controlling people (denying them free choice essentially) in the name of their own safety - I'll never buy it (it has been done during the history of humanity and we all know what it means).

Yes, it is dangerous sport. Tell everyone about it. If you want to encourage safety, do it by education. And I think education has been very successful so far (and in good part thanks to this forum).


2. Is it practically possible to effectively implement such control?

I think this would turn out more bizarre than Big Brother from 1984. You cannot just name and shame people like that, as this could be very easily abused. You have to prove beyond reasonable doubt (to use legal phrase) that someone is training alone. Who would do the investigative/reporting work - members? Who would do decision making of banning someone from competing - members committee/administration? What would be good enough evidence - video clips (almost impossible to recognise person in wetsuit with the mask), witness system (easy to abuse), self-confessions (light in the face and a bit of encouragement from AIDA security police )? If a freediver is spearfishing alone, what then? If a good quality evidence can be collected, is freediver in question really alone? I am sure there are more such questions.
Can of worms.

Just out of interest - do any other sports have something like "out of competition rules"?



Go Herbert!

 

[laminar]

My quick 3 cents:

we need to provide positive incentives for people to train safely. "Proper" safety (I'm still not convinced that counterweight systems are adequate) is often prohibitively expensive and cumbersome, we need to work on developing safety protocols that are less expensive, convenient and easy to use. This is complication and costly, perhaps AIDA can put additional membership fees or some other sanctioning fee toward R&D. There are a lot of great minds in this community, I know for certain we can come up with something. Having been involved in at least one attempt to create an alternative safety system, I do know it is a huge project.

We also need to look at freediving events themselves. How can they be modified to be safer and in turn lead to safer training. I can think of several changes that could help.

I think if AIDA can foster this kind of positive action, rather than going with punitive action, we'll all be better off.

If you want an example of the effectiveness of punitive action, look no further than cycling's relationship with doping and 2 year bans. :duh

Pete

 

[tylerz]

I draw the line between training and recreational at the point that a diver has intent to push their performance ability. Recreational situations are with the intent of recreation, not performance. A recreational diver has a degree of self-enforced limitation for their dive while they participate focused on a non-performance based activity: photography, marine life viewing, sea hiking (term coined by Peter Scott), etc; all of which may employ a dive line and float. I don't think there is any question as to when a diver is training, but one would have to be in their presence while diving to determine this; but can you say they are alone now? I do not consider a dive done to a comfortable % of one's max ability to be a training dive and I am certain there is a significant portion of this community that would second that view.

As much as it is recommended and encouraged that everybody use a buddy while performing any diving related activities, I think it is essential to support and respect others' freedom of approach, philosophy, and experience towards their alone time. I have seen and participated in this argument before in local discussion lists and the results and conclusions were anything but pleasant or unanimous. Many felt afraid to even voice their opinion, which suggests the likelihood that such judgments of people that dive alone will only cause them to go underground and potentially risk losing the input and perspective of the community for their further participation. As much as resources online provide a great deal of information, it is from the exchange of personal experience and openness to divulge practices that allows us to assist each other most effectively.

That said, almost everybody I have met in the community has, and still does, dive alone at times, some mostly so. They are not going to stop doing so because a penalty comes out. They would simply ensure that nobody spots them or those present in the vicinity don't care. Which brings up, when is a diver not alone? When there is somebody two feet from them upon surfacing? When there is somebody within a 10 meter circumference? When somebody has a line of sight to the diver? When they know about the diver's depth intention? When they know safety procedures? When they are effective at safety procedures?

I don't think this will have any path to being realized. As much as the intention may be honorable, to encourage safer practices, I think it would do the opposite for the community beyond the competitive and not change anything within the community of competition. It was stated that it would mostly be applicable to top divers, so the resulting adamant perception by only a few, shunning an inevitable activity, would only isolate a significant portion of the greater community.

And if for any reason somebody is going to take what I am suggesting here incorrectly, let me clarify that I believe and encourage that all divers dive with another diver trained in buddy safety and rescue. If you are inevitably going to dive alone, then I am also here to support that and provide whatever assistance I can offer with that knowledge. Whether it is diving, sailing, hiking, paragliding, traveling, swimming, marathon running, weight-lifting, and whatever other activities are out there, passing judgment of when it is reasonable to shun those who do so alone is currently very arbitrary and inconsistent. To further punish such people based upon these arbitrary realizations, I believe would be an ineffective and narrow judgment.

 

[Marwan]

im not a competitve freediver at all but logically, you cannot control training, be it freediving or any kind of sport...(people die in a squash court, jogging, in a gym etc...)i mean its not like scuba where you can limit the diver's access to tanks exept if from an authorized center that looks for licenses etc...
i think that at best you can control competitions and increase awareness as much as possible, but i cant think of an effective control that would prevent someone from pickig up a mask and a pair of fins (if that) and jump into a pool or ocean......just my inexperienced thoughts...

 

[shoutatthesky]

Some of us would love to have a dive buddy but don't. Should we stay out of the water? Personally I can't - I have to dive. If diving alone kills me well thats life. If that sounds irresponsible than think about the wisdom of what Herbert is planning!

 

[laminar]

Great post, Tyler.

Has AIDA ever considered a simple ad campaign with famous freedivers exhorting the public to "dive safely?" And then have a link to a simple resource for safety guidelines that are continually responsive to new ideas and practices. Where is the "Safety" section on the AIDA website? Where is the "Guide to Constant Weight Training Safety" on the AIDA website? We all know that competition safety protocols are important - but I believe that they need to presented as a more practical tool to freedivers.



Tyler's points about what "diving with a buddy" really means are vital to understanding the negative feelings that come up in these debates. I know for a fact that there are times when a bunch of freedivers training on a line with (or without) a counterweight are being far more unsafe that someone solo diving - it all depends on the variables that Tyler mentions.

 

[Fondueset]

I have much more relaxed and longer dives when I dive alone - when I dive with buddies I am constantly monitoring them - and am much less relaxed. Alone I dive very conservatively - but my times are easily half-again as long. This is mainly because all my dive buddies are less experienced than I am.
When I meet scuba divers or anyone expressing interest in freediving I have a growing litany of safety advice for them - which they are compelled to listen to simply because the moment I see a glimmer of interest I launch the spiel. It is compact and easy to remember - even when forced

 

[Fondueset]

Here's Claire, effortlessly following me down to about 20 meters. My other buddy is the one that makes me nervous though - allways checking his depth guage.

 

[Kars]

Great Picture Fondueset!

I think this tread is becomming a bit off-topic here.

Questions about Herbert's Nitsch safety I can understand, but extending it to generic freedivers and AIDA sounds to me like an subject for a different topic.

In the scope of safety another seperate topic could be 'is there a limit to what level AIDA should keep recognising No-limit's dives?'

Back to topic,

The 700ft is a huge jump, what knowledge did convince Herbert that he could do that?
Would he still use air equalisation?

I just hope everything goes well, because our sport can do without spectacular deaths. I hope Herbert is able to maintain a nice diary of his training and adventures into the abyss.

Love, Peace and Water,

Kars

 

[Fondueset]

I agree - it is an overextension to impose competitive training safety protocols on recreational divers. It is also questionable whether such standards can even be extended beyond the events themselves.

 

[pehtran]

Very unreasonable sugestions in my opinion:

I am ranked, I also spearfish - I consider it also a part of my training. Do I dive realatively deep? At times? Do I hold breath for over one minute? I should hope so. Do I practice it ALONE? Most of the time. And I enjoy it tremendously. And I am very much aware of the risks. And I am aware that there are factors and dangers I just can not control. Like in life in general.
And I will never tolerate anyone who will try to stop me for whatever reason. I'd much reather stop competing. I think it is a question of ones personal freedom.

Miha

 

[BennyB]

When Herbert was in the UK recently we talked a bit about his upcoming attempt and the equipment he is using. He has some variations on the traditional no-limits setup that I believe will make things a lot safer. I won't go into details because a) I will probably get them mixed up and b) it's not my place to tell the world, Herbert and his promoters/sponsors can do that.

But the things I took away from the conversation are that he and others around him have put a hell of a lot of research into the attempt (as you would expect), they've changed sled setups and added safety mechanisms, simplified some aspects (less complex = less things to go wrong) and have made it so that the rig can be tested without a person on board. It will likely be the safest (both in training and record attempt) attempt we've seen so far.

Cheers,
Ben

 

[Walrus]

You simply can't enforce or regulate how people dive in their own spare time, you have to educate/promote safe freediving as best you can. I don't think I've met any freedivers that can say that they have NEVER dived alone. I only do big max attempts with a buddy, if I'm alone I always do much less.

I agree with Peter, if AIDA was that serious about freediving safety why are there no safety procedures up on their website ?
I handled several blackout rescues before I did a course and was "taught" correct procedures. I got my info from sites such as these. Teaching someone in person is always better but be aware that in a lot of countries the vast majority of freedivers will NOT do a course so having some written information is better then nothing. (Holding a camera or a speargun doesn't make you imune to blackouts so is still freediving )


Cheers,
Wal

 

[jome]

This is straying waaaay of topic, but anyway, here's a quick and dirty translation of our national safety recommendations.

Not perfect, for sure, but something to build on?

What I would like to see there next (and we will do that this year) is adding more specifications of what kind of equipment should be used in what conditions.

For example, in low vis, I would recommend not going deeper than let's say 30 with just a buoy and rope. If you have a boat or platform that you can use to pull it up, 40-50. For deeper than that, some kind of assisted retrieval system should be used, etc...

Anyway, it is just a recommendation, we cannot stop people from doing what they want. But at they should have an idea now what is safe diving.

 

[OceanMan]

Herbert Nitsch is going for -215m on the 16th of June.
Herbert Nitsch's website.

Read that http://www.notanx.com/nitsch/Organization plan 700ft.pdf

Some incredible features for this dive.
Like a deco stop of 1 minute in apnea during the ascent at -10m !!!!

 

[Kars]

WOW, he has put some thought and hours in this!

I see this project is very costly and complicated.

To me al these technical things take away a lot of the 'free' out of Freediving, though ging down with a simple sled to modest depths ( withing you personal CW range) is good fun and nice equalisation exercise.

I wonder what the dive will be like to Herbert?
Does Herbert still manages to equalise with air at such depts?

Anyway good luck and have fun Herbert!

Love peace and water,

Kars

 

[OceanMan]

The distance between the sled line and the counterweight line is only 10m.
I really think it's not enough considering the depth. Mid depth is more than 10 times bigger than the distance between the two lines. A very small angle on the surface and the two lines could cross at depth.
This is one of the possible reason for the accident of Loic Leferme. The counterweight could have been tangled with the sled line causing everything to stop.
I think somebody should really warn Herbert.

 

[Stavros]

Hi Oceanman - Herbert's team has definately calculated the possibility that the counterweight gets tangled with the dive line when the counterweight is activated.

But you must keep in mind the following things:
1. The 10m distance is more than is used in most counterweight systems (most allow a distance of not more than 5m between the lines)
2. The counterweight is going to be slowed down at the point when it is crossing the sled during ascent so as to make sure it does not get tangled.
3. The counterweight diver retrieval system does not depend on the counterweight in order to lift the diver - two independent electric motors are lifting the diveline and can lift a great weight (even the diveline tangled with the counterweight)

Cheers Stavros