Indie/Minor Speargun Companies

[spaghetti]

Here's some amazing wood guns from V-tube (whose carbon fiber assembled guns are mentioned in post #1 of this thread).
Notice the tapered section of the woodies, very slim in the front end (must be 22 millimteres or less) and the stock made in 2 essence laminations (must be iroko and ???), plus the interesting muzzle with the detail of the twin rubbers tied at both ends.

 

[James T]

Its interesting to me the differences in design between a few of these companies - that Mika is very similar, as you say, to the Abellan's which in my opinion don't look to be so well finished as my own favourites the totemsub guns Totemsub

I am sure the finish is a design choice - the Abellans and Mika and the V wood look like they have sharp edges and don't look so smooth. When I look at the Pelagos from Totemsub I think its a work of art. In terms of handle design - the V wood looks like the sanding doesn't shape the handle so well to the shape of the hands. If I am right it looks like the sanding has been done just to takes the edges off the rectangular section of the wooden block used for the handle.

Trigger mechs and line releases all look different to me too.

One thing that did strike me was the way the rubbers were configured at the muzzle using a wishbone arrangement at the front - I have thought of doing that myself - but only to use up odd lengths of band rubber - I normally use a continuous length. Spago - you made the comment that the muzzle looks very small - and I agree - maybe this wishbone arrangement at the muzzle is exactly what allows the tiny muzzle diameter (because you only have to support the line of the wishbone and not the full hole to carry the band rubber??)

Just my 2pce worth

 

[Mark Lamont]

It is my belief that the roller gun will be the future of the sport for band guns. They have been around for years and one of the pioneers Don Rowland from San Diego showed me his during one of my first Bluewater meets. Jack Pradanovich also pioneered this and had a sample of a Asian gun using the same basics.
Speargun basics dictate that the shaft propulsion should be as long as possible for longer range flights just as in any firearm. The total force propelling the arrow is greatly increased by use of the total gun length. Hence the benefit from the pneumatic and roller speargun and the disadvantage of the dead length of a standard band gun.
I still am going to make one using some of the ideas from my research years.

 

[blaiz]

(must be iroko and ???)

Looks like wenge, another african hardwood. Which is surprising. I have built guns with this wood but only used it in interior laminates for a pinstriping effect. The wood is beautiful but VERY hard to work with and shape. Has some of the worst splinters you could ever get... ask me how I know:head

 

[spaghetti]

MArk: keep 'em coming.
Blaiz: keep 'em coming.

Spago - you made the comment that the muzzle looks very small - and I agree - maybe this wishbone arrangement at the muzzle is exactly what allows the tiny muzzle diameter (because you only have to support the line of the wishbone and not the full hole to carry the band rubber??)

Makes sense. In facts the constructive vision of this company (V tube) is in its name: tapered barrels (shaped like a very steep "V") are the feature of both their carbon and woodies, so to concentrate the mass in the rear, and provide an extremely slim muzzle area. This is meant for better tracking. European hunters with their shy tiny fish are more demanding for etxremely easy-swinging guns.

But bands tied at both ends are not necessarily for small muzzles....
Look at the beautiful American "Bigdaddy" spearguns (see pic below)

 

[spaghetti]

It is my belief that the roller gun will be the future of the sport for band guns. They have been around for years and one of the pioneers Don Rowland from San Diego showed me his during one of my first Bluewater meets. Jack Pradanovich also pioneered this and had a sample of a Asian gun using the same basics.
Speargun basics dictate that the shaft propulsion should be as long as possible for longer range flights just as in any firearm. The total force propelling the arrow is greatly increased by use of the total gun length. Hence the benefit from the pneumatic and roller speargun and the disadvantage of the dead length of a standard band gun.
I still am going to make one using some of the ideas from my research years.

Rollers: to my understanding, there must be some issues with patents, at least in Europe. Anybody has any hints?
Seatec started to mass-produce a brilliant roller (alluminum pipe) a few years back, but quitted all at sudden due to (rumored) patent issues. Beuchat is now making one, but it's be the only major brand with a roller in its catalogue, if I'm not missing something (Patents involveed???).

If one wants a roller, three options: make it himself, buy the Beuchat or get a wooden roller from some small craft, such as Wolfsub or Alemanni Sub. I've found som pics of Alemanni's rollerguns: curious to hear impressions from you all.
Alemanni Roller:

 

[popgun pete]

There are a number of patents for rollerguns, the first being for the lever operated rollergun produced by "Hurricane", a French company. That was back in 1949! The lever under the barrel acts as a cocking aid to tension up the band after the usual drawback of the wishbone by hand. "Hurricane" made a wide range of diving gear including dry barrel spring guns using the "air bubble" principle. A later 1950's US patent is for a dual roller speargun designed to hunt catfish in lower visibility conditions, the rollers are in tandem on a single axle and offer more power in a relatively short gun, basically a modified muzzle dual band "Arbalete". In my view rollerguns should have been considered "prior art" when Marc-Antoine Berry took out his recent worldwide patent (2005, application was in July 2004) for single and dual axle rollerguns with two-stage loading, those ideas were known well before then, but no one bothered to patent them. The Jack Prodanovich two-stage loading rollergun had been on public view for years on this web-site http://rocknfish.com/Blue_Gun.html as was the multi-roller gun of Don Rollstead. I suspect that Marc-Antoine Berry's patent is now the stumbling block as it was used for the Beuchat "Revolution" speargun, plus previous patents were limited to the country they were taken out in. In 1984 the "Fer De Lance" rollergun was produced in the USA by Belcher Industries, it is a variation on the "In Depth Incorporated" band guns, the gun looks great, but is somewhat flawed as the large diameter rollers use a small diameter band and the muzzle band arrestor can crack when struck by the metal wishbone. There was also a tandem roller version, but I doubt that many of those were sold. The band runs the full length of the barrel, both top and bottom, anchoring just in front of the trigger finger guard.

Patent holders do not have to think up an idea first, they just have to get to the Patent Office first! And spend the necessary money to register and protect their patent, so they will want a return on this investment.

 

[Mark Lamont]

Patents are designed to be gotten around. The strongest patent is pending, because no one knows what is or isn't.
If the patents are over 25 years old then they become prior art.
The gun looks interesting. Are the bands preloaded when in the fired position???? The metal muzzle looks interesting but I wonder if it is really necessary? Probably so because Don Rowlands gun has a similar feature but a fully enclosed tube. It would be nice to see both bands in place.
Thanks Popgun. You're an interesting guy.

 

[Mark Lamont]

the rollers are in tandem on a single axle and offer more power in a relatively short gun I take exception to that. The length of the gun has nothing to do with the roller design. A roller gun could be 4 miles long and still be more effective than a non roller. In my view rollerguns should have been considered "prior art" when Marc-Antoine Berry took out his recent worldwide patent (2005, application was in July 2004) for single and dual axle rollerguns with two-stage loading, those ideas were known well before then, but no one bothered to patent them. I'm not a patent attorney but an invention cannot be common practice art. Just being the first to patent an invention is not the full requirement. use a small diameter band and the muzzle band arrestor can crack when struck by the metal wishbone. You assume that the wish bone is metal. We know better than that now. There was also a tandem roller version, but I doubt that many of those were sold. The band runs the full length of the barrel, both top and bottom, anchoring just in front of the trigger finger guard. In my opinion, this will be the future of band guns. The advantages are many.

Patent holders do not have to think up an idea first, they just have to get to the Patent Office first! We don't agree on this. And spend the necessary money to register and protect their patent. Improvement is continual and hence the whole basis for patents. Building a good product and making money as quickly as possible not protection is the key because when the product is continually improved one stays ahead of the competition.

I appologize for not knowing how to use the "quote" jig-a ma-thing.

 

[popgun pete]

The 1950's patent by Norbert Ebeling was to create a short band gun with more power, otherwise unstretched band length would be too short. I am just reporting what the patent was about, it is not saying that rollerguns have to be short. I have read most of the early speargun patent literature up to the 1970's. A search of prior patents is part of the patent process, that usually clears the way for a new patent to be granted if the idea has not already been registered. Even so some ideas were patented more than once as they were not detected, such as anti-suction ports in spring guns, I know because I have read all the spring gun patents. Paperwork based searches were less effective in the distant past, it is a different matter in the electronic records age.

The "Fer De Lance" rollergun has a metal wishbone, I should know because I own one, the single roller version.

Patents are taken out to declare ownership of intellectual property and thus provide a means to exploit the commercial application of that property, however in spearfishing many inventors just made their product without bothering to take out patents. For example Undersee and Sea Hornet never patented their guns, but the former has had its trigger mechanism widely copied. It is a fact that patents can be got around, but that is not the intention of the patent holder who tries to cover his invention by the various claims made in the patent. You ought to know this as you have been involved with patents such as that for the original "Sea Wing" fin.

In spearfishing the KISS principle has ruled, more complicated guns fall by the wayside, especially if the extra expense in manufacturing them does not result in increased sales over the competition. That unused length in standard band guns provides two advantages, a longer shaft and hence more mass and a better aiming or pointing ability due to detection of smaller angular deviations from the target. Rollerguns have their applications, but the idea has never really caught on for mass production in the long term. Individuals can build whatever they like for private use, patents only affect those who seek to commercialize an idea, unless the factory is in China!

 

[Mark Lamont]

Lots of good point Pete. Many of the threads that I read here are based on how to vary power usually increase. Lengthing the effective band distance or increasing the power to the shaft can be accomplished by the roller band concept. Life is full of trade offs. I agree, the roller gun has not taken off and am happy about that but believe it just needs a push. As for simplicity in spearfishing, I don't see the difference in loading of one less effective band or one more effective and don't think pneumatics or spring guns for that matter are simple.
The photo of the roller gun shown is the first that I have seen with non metal bands and think it a much wiser choice of materials.
I also applaud the balancing of the energized bands on top and bottom of the gun and would like to see that left and right as well.
I'm not such a believer in the long shaft sticking out of the front of the gun thinking. I've found that it just makes the gun nose heavy and therefore am not an avid Riffe style advocate. I would rather have a bit more bouyancy in the front for balance. That's just me.
As for the patent stuff, we could go on forever with that and I respectively disagree about what the reality of the U.S. patent system. In my opinion it is soley responsible for loss of intellectual property, corporate gain and blockage of ideas contrary to existing corporate gains, stifles proponets of further ideas and also has resulted in major job and technology loss in the U.S.
If I was all powerful (thank God that is not the case) I would put a time limit on fruition of patents to products with a result of return of owner ship to the inventor. Our society would be much further along than allowing corporate america to buy it. It takes a champion to further ideas and not a board of directors.
Thanks for the reply.

 

[foxfish]

There are some nice roller guns around, I have built a few myself but I had problems getting a good balance due to the relatively short guns we use in the UK.
The muzzle tends to be to bulky for a Euro style gun but I have been thinking about building one for the new year db project gun.
There was that french chap "Marc" who had patented a lever operated roller gun, not sure what happened to him?

Here you are .... http://forums.deeperblue.com/spearguns-accessories/82717-new-super-easy-loading-speargun.html more patents than you can shake a stick at!

 

[spaghetti]

Sadly, here's a last tribute to Giulio Campopiano, owner and craft master of Eban Sub, mentioned in post #15 of this thread.

The other day he was out spearing wth a friend. The buddy lost eye contact and went down in search of him, but only found his gun. Boats, rescue divers and helicopters were deployed in the search. With no luck. He was 35 years old.

It's a pain beyond words for his family and friends, and a warning for us all.
May you rest in peace Giulio.

 

[Don Paul]

So sad Spag, prayers for family and friends.

Sincerely, Don

 

[Don Paul]

Spag, is there a link you can post when you have time ? Thank you .

Don

 

[spaghetti]

Spag, is their a link you can post when you have time ? Thank you .

Don

His wonderful creations herePesca in apnea-Arbalete-Eban (click on "Arbalete": the Evo and Idro series are brilliant)

 

[James T]

Very nice looking guns Spaghetti I agree.

As an aside I am looking into making a new gun and am interested in the trigger mechanisms available as aftermarket accessories. I have used the Totem sub trigger mechs twice before but I never get the pivot pin correctly placed for smooth line release action. I like the look of this Eban trigger mech with its simple line release.

Anyone have an opinion on this??

 

[spaghetti]

And when you thought we had seen them all: Sling Fish.

It's an american brand based in Florida, offering type of monococque Carbon fiber guns. They look like beefed up C4, similar in look to greek Bleutech guns.

Their website speaks of an "internal ballast sysstem", but it's unclear to me how it works. is it water ballast? Dunno. Here they are. First american carbon monocoque I've seen so far.

 

[spaghetti]

Now as sweet eye candy, one more creation from italian gunmaster Arbafan.
Never seen any other reverse trigger mech like that on any other european gun.

 

[Don Paul]

Spag, yes the Slingfish uses water as ballast inside the unclosed line guide tube. If you look at post # 8 of my double gun one can see 2 tapering carbon/boron tubes running the sides. The bottom tubes are ''wet'' at times depending on the mass of the shaft and power settings. I use them to fair in the bands, increase cross-section and trim requirements.

Cheers, Don