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Infinitengines "Dreamair" pneumatic speargun

Thread Status: Hello , There was no answer in this thread for more than 60 days.
It can take a long time to get an up-to-date response or contact with relevant users.
A dual power "Dreamair" is a possibility using the twin axle version of the muzzle shown here. In such a gun each wishbone draw would move the piston half way up the gun barrel. Hence for full power you would cock both wishbones, "half power" you would only cock one wishbone.

How many people would be interested in that version I wonder and whether they would find it useful.

P.S. I just discussed this with the inventor and he says the intention is to run any future twin axle gun at 22 atm start pressure, not the 11 atm of the single axle gun which will be available first in carbon fiber. Note that with a completely sealed pressure system the pressure being stated is absolute pressure as the "Dreamair" is not affected by ambient pressure at depth. That means you pump the single and twin axle guns up to 10 atm and 21 atm respectively using gauge pressures. The partial vacuum created in the rear of the gun as the piston is dragged forwards during cocking is why you need to think in atm absolute terms when doing force calculations in order to determine the gun's power and how much effort will be required to cock it.

With a compression ratio of approximately 2.0 the gun will reach 22 atm (single axle) and 44 atm (twin axle) with the piston fully advanced in the barrel bore. According to my calculations the twin axle gun will be at 29.3 atm after the first wishbone draw, hence that will be the start pressure for the next wishbone draw. The attached diagram indicates how this was calculated, the effective compression ratio being 1.33 on the first draw. As start pressure is 22 atm, the pressure is given by 1.33 x 22 which equals 29.3 atm. The area under the graph represents the amount of energy stored in the gun, note that it is not a simple straight line, but a shallow curve. This is because pressure P x volume V is a constant for a given quantity of gas and thus P is inversely proportional to volume changes or mathematically P x V = K (a constant) and therefore P = K/V which can be represented in graphical form as the familiar inverse function Y= 1/X.

twin axle Dreamair muzzle.jpg
Dreamair high power - low power AA.jpg
Dreamair operating cycle R.jpg
 
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Although the 10 atm gauge pressure is not high, the interior volume of the "Dreamair" gun is. It would be handy to use an adapter so that an automobile 12 Volt DC portable compressor could be used to pressurize the "Dreamair". I made an adapter for my pneumatic guns that can use a 250 psi portable compressor to rapidly push the gun up to 200 psi, then I do the rest of the pressurizing with the supplied hand pump. I attach a "diagram" of what I think this adapter would look like.
12Vdc air compressor inflation adapter.jpg
 
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I was recently thinking about how the "Dreamair" speargun will be marketed and came up with the following rationale of why anyone would purchase one of these very different spearguns.

DREAMAIR SPEARGUN

Marketing

One of the first questions posed before a marketing campaign starts is “what is the offer”.

The answer to this question sets the theme for the campaign.

The offer is:-

A highly versatile gun with respect to its infinitely variable power output that reduces the decision of which gun to take on a trip to a single one, namely the length of the gun required. Everything else is adjustable in the “Dreamair” speargun and thus it requires only the transport of a single weapon, unless the spearfisherman wants a longer or shorter weapon to accompany his main speargun.

Now what do you think?
 
Any feedback? The project needs input and a range of potential users to comment on what they would be looking for in a gun which is basically a crossover design in that it is an arbalete with a closed, non-consumptive (of gas), pneumatic energy accumulator.
 
I am not sure what they are asking? Feedback on features - though it sounds like they are close to production - or help with marketing...?

Anwyays, I'll give it a go - but mostly because I find the exercise interesting. But I have to say that part of me actually feel a bit hesitant giving marketing pointers to a company that have not shared a single proper test with the community yet. Just pretty renderings and pics and a video or two not really showing much. I have a growing feeling they might roll out Mac-style with pomp, perceived perfection and prettiness whereas, personally, I think they could have gone another way. They could have shared the mishaps along the way, done updates, kept a proper online presence, engaged with us and asked for wanted features - as a lot of crowdsourced product campaigns have done.

I feel strongly that they need to take testing, pool testing, very seriously. There are many smart spearos out there who will expect nothing less these days. They should aim to compete with Abellan/Alemmani which are guns known to be tuned properly and to shoot well out of the box.
If they make strong claims of performance - as I will on their behalf in my blurb below - and don't back it up with penetration and accuracy tests, they will be shooting themselves in the feet.

But on with it. The "sexy" pitch could go something like this:

"We took the unrivalled efficiency of a pneumatic gun and paired it with the beloved user-friendliness of a traditional bandgun. But we didn't stop there. Our unique gearing system enables you to load the gun with incredible power and with no moving bands and a high, in-line handle recoil is a thing of the past. Add to that a completely uncluttered sight line, a super crisp and precise trigger and the DreamAir could be the most accurate speargun you will ever point at a fish.
We spent four years designing and developing the DreamAir and we believe we achieved the perfect balance of cutting edge technology and ease-of-use with minimal maintenance needs" etc, etc, etc.

Now, I am taking the liberty of assuming this thing actually works so basically, the advantages I see are these and they just need to incorporate most or all of them:
*"Partitioned" loading effort - making it possible to load at high power, like a multi-banded speargun
*No recoil
*High Handle
*A completely uncluttered sight line
*Maneuvrebility, oval'ish barrel for easy tracking
* You can use a variety of bandgun shafts including your own favorite brands
*The quality of the trigger and the crisp and predictable pull (But I have been reading too many of Majd's posts to assume the trigger will be amazing. If they really wanna look top notch, it seems they should consider dropping in a double roller mech from Ermes, but that may be too late to design for)
*Built-in reel (not a pro for some...)

Then after that, they can do a "how does it work" section where they break out more details for the technically inclined.
 
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Now, I stated earlier that I took the liberty of assuming it will work and actually outperform other airguns. Which would be pretty amazing but the proof is in the pudding - or a pool somewhere in the near future.
After testing a 130 airgun at 30-32 bar I was happy to see no sign of shaft wobble. I was really worried that the shaft would bend in the barrel upon the piston being released. After all, the shaft is only support at the extreme ends and is sagging a bit in the middle.
Majd talks a lot about how shaft stability is very important to keep the energy and speed up - hence why I was relieved to not really see any wobble.
Now, why do I talk about this? Well, I was thinking that potential issue could be one thing the DreamAir had sorted as it is has a regular track. The main advantage to me for the DreamAir is now down to the loading system. But a Mirage can partition the loading effort also. I think it should be easier for the DreamAir to get a good trigger pull and the sight line must be amazing. The rest, we need to see about. Would love for it to be as good as my fluffy PR draft above:).
 
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@popgun Pete. @Diving Gecko. They should send you guys a gun for your contribution so we can see some unbiased user reviews.

Hello dreamair crew are you reading this tread? Time to step up and engage in the conversation!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
@popgun Pete. @Diving Gecko. They should send you guys a gun for your contribution so we can see some unbiased user reviews.

Hello dreamair crew are you reading this tread? Time to step up and engage in the conversation!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

If they truly have something great on their hands they should send one to SpearQ8 (Majd);-). I mean, I would love to take one on an upcoming Indo trip - but Majd has the track record on testing guns and he has no real affiliations or brand loyalties. His pool tests, in my view, are the closest thing the community has to independent, scientific - or at least methodical - speargun performance testing. He has very likely shot more different guns in a pool than most and is always looking for the better arrow;-)

Pete would be great at making us truly understand it in technical and perhaps historical context. I'm sure he could take it apart in a heartbeat and let us know how to do that best, too. I'm sure it shoots fish but I don't really need to see that.

Me, not sure what I could add. Well, I think a lot of us here in our little group are good at individual, critical thinking and perhaps even a bit of analytical skill and I guess that's all it takes to give honest feedback.
On that point, I'm a photographer/photojournalist by trade, and it hurts seeing how the vast majority of people doing "reviews" on e.g. YouTube and to a lesser extent on forums either don't really have the skills to do it or are just for sale, sucking up to the manufacturers to get the next bit of kit for free... most of them decide not to review if the gear is bad and they are very skilled at downplaying what should be improved in the reviews they do do. Rant over;-)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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Well thenk goodness you guys chime in as this was statng to be a monolofue.

Well, you are the one who can decipher and reverse engineer these things from a distance so I think we have just gotten our understanding of the whole concept from you, but we can't really add much:). But now, the wait has been on for a while and that has allowed our critical minds to start speculating.

I am amazed with the effort that has gone into this product and I really hope they have a winner on their hands.
Maybe because it has been such a labor of love it's hard for them to open up and sharing the development - not only to not get copied but also not to be too confused with varying and opposite needs and perhaps getting discouraged. Perhaps, we shouldn't be second guessing how they have done things, but it's all in good intention as I think we all want them to succeed.

Spending time on these forums, I feel there's an elite of tinkerers and spearos emerging that have higher expectations than perhaps ever before. There are still plenty who will buy into hype or perceived brand value - but my advice to Dreamair would be to not aim at the latter. Focus on the gun and the needs of the experienced users, not on the hype, and if the "elite" appreciate it, it should trickle down the chain. That would be justified hype and that's alright.
A few ways to do that; put in the best possible trigger they can make or get their hands on, get the gun dialled in perfectly with a great shaft (again, pool testing to no end) - possibly with 2-3 different setups with different shaft thickness and rigging. E.g. a lighter, faster one for the skittish, smaller fish in the Med and a heavier, punchier one for the bigger fish and one for slip-tip and possibly breakaway. As to Pete's versatility point, this would help spell that out. I guess I am saying - don't treat your paying customers as testers as so many other companies willingly do.

This gun will be perceived as extremely complicated by many and they need to nip that in the butt. I suggest they spend some time making PDFs and videos on how to service the gun and have those ready for the launch (for inspiration look at the teardowns from www.ifixit.com). People need to know they can service it themselves without too much hassle. To further this, they should make sure it ships with a few sets of replacement seals. Apart from the seals, the shaft, the dyneema and possibly the trigger this gun is made up of 100% proprietary parts - so buyers need to know the company will be around. There's no way to ensure that - but letting their website go blank and Facebook unattended, even in this early stage, is not a good signal to send.

I hope this doesn't sound negative - where I come from, it's a sign of respect spending your energy to give criticism:).
 
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The above questions came from me, not the inventor, who "keeps his cards very close to his chest" as the old saying goes and does not give much away. About a year ago the gun seemed.to be nearly ready for sale and then everything suddenly went quiet. I have been exploring various facets of the design to keep this thread ticking over, however I have about ran out of material as the CVT/gearing I had been saving up until now. Personally I think some guns should have been released long before this as interest has waxed and waned in the past and only now is momentum building again. Hopefully we see something this time as from memory there have been at least two false dawns before this. A partitioned reservoir system will not work as the inner cable has to pass through any bulkhead, but a form of half power and full power can be had with two wishbones on the gun as discussed earlier.
 
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I don't have any inside knowledge, but the problem with an oval piston is that it cannot revolve in the bore, so it wipes the same locations in the barrel every time. I suspect that the gun may return to this configuration shown in the patent.
dreamair fig 4 R.jpg
 
Any leaking of the piston seal will remove the developing vacuum on the rear side of the piston and thus detract from the power of the shot. Maybe this seal leaking problem was experienced with the oval piston alloy guns.
 
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The more I think about the built-in reel, the more I think it might be a bit risky. It looks beautiful but it really has to work flawlessly.
Now, I don't use reels much but from what I can gather different spearos can be really different in what they want from a reel. In the Med, it's mostly used with thinner line to allow you to descent with your gun while your fish might have holed up. For the guys who shoot big fish, they want a very sturdy reel that can take thicker lines - and also take some punishment. On top of that, some want a brake whereas others swear freespooling is the way to go. Perhaps the Dreamair can be set up for both? And then of course some don't want a reel at all.
 
I wonder if the winding drum covers will be fitted for weedy and rocky areas in order to protect the winding drum tracks. The track grooves need to be maintained in good order so that the cables wrap in exactly the same way each time the "Dreamair" gun is fired.
covers.jpg
 
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I was just thinking that high speed spinning items can function like a gyroscope which would tend to stabilize the "Dreamair" gun during the shot as the winding drums and axle certainly spin rapidly. Another consideration is that having been spun up to a certain velocity how is their rotational inertia handled in order to bring the spinning assembly to a halt. There does not appear to be a wishbone catcher as such, so that task must fall to the inner cable anchor point which would receive quite a jerk when it pulled up the winding drums and axle assembly to stop them spinning after the shot.
 
Hey Pete, I wonder if the inventor has ever looked at this thread?
Perhaps we should invite him to comment as I doubt any other forum has showed as much interest in his idea.
I also think you should be the official tester.
 
Hey Pete, I wonder if the inventor has ever looked at this thread?
Perhaps we should invite him to comment as I doubt any other forum has showed as much interest in his idea.
I also think you should be the official tester.
He certainly has looked at this thread as I have often combined his images to tell a certain story, then sent them on to him and he has been quite happy to do that. An example is this one on “Dreamair” gun servicing. Andreas Zournatzis has his own group of gun testers, hence he will not be letting them out to foreigners, well not yet anyway.

Dreamair servicing R.jpg
 
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