is "never freedive alone!(!!)" safe?

[growingupninja]

Gentlemen,

it is painful reading page after page of useless flood. Since when this topic became "philosophical"? to me this is very real stuff. I dive alone often, even when I am with somebody it isn't any better. I am with Eric on this one. Can we come closer to some kind of conservative guidelines on how to never blackout, on how to reduce danger of BO when it happens and such other vital points.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sjurba
And Im curious to what is a long surface interval to clear buildup of acid after a strenous dive? twice the diving time? more?


this was very real question and I haven't seen anybody answering

Do you train and educate yourself as if your life depended on it?

 

[esom]

What do i believe?
hmmm...for now i believe in a communication about safety without dogma or fear.

I don't think, that it is a good idea to play with fears or use fears to reach a goal. You never know, if you hit the goal with it or you fail the goal because of it.

Kars, you asked what is my point. although not able to express it like this this, i feel, those are the two points that i would have liked to have made in the beginning.

try to be more clear, as several people mentioned this... though still in my own words

"n d a !"safe for:
- freediving alone? --> there was no "yes", but quite a few "no it´s dangerous". obvious reason: "freediving safely alone" is no subject as long as it is unsafe , further, if you dive alone nevertheless you are forced to be more or less rebellious, which can draw attention away from your own way of diving, although it is the base of your safety.

- for freediving with a buddy? --> doing something in the sense of doing it "right", by following a rule that is deattached from the actual situation can be a problem. Kars mentioned the unexpected things. a dogma is introducing "rights" and "wrongs" that exist by themself.
eric mentioned the possiblity of taking higher risks due to the assumed "safety plus" your buddy is producing- reasonable to me.

- for freediving?
a dogmatic use of "n d a!", reflects dogmatic ideas of "safety", "freediving" and the human way/potential of development.
"never freedive alone!" has a massive paradoxic power ("be free!") and defines freediving as "underwaterswims that are dangerous to do alone"
every single freediver knows better. consequently an internal conflict is born.
the confusion, that is created by these contexts has an influence on our diving and our diving safety, as well as on our talk about diving. <== these things are seperable only by language

 

[esom]

Gentlemen,

it is painful reading page after page of useless flood. Since when this topic became "philosophical"? to me this is very real stuff. I dive alone often, even when I am with somebody it isn't any better. I am with Eric on this one. Can we come closer to some kind of conservative guidelines on how to never blackout, on how to reduce danger of BO when it happens and such other vital points.



this was very real question and I haven't seen anybody answering

Andrew, to speak about the danger of a wording may be philosophical to you, but thats how the thread was started. personally i appriciate the sidetrack about solo safety, because it´s the direct outcome of conclusions made "on topic" in this thread.

 

[esom]

i read again, i think by trying to be more clear i disregarded again the important things... as baiyoke mentioned it´s not so much about the words, and i agree with him. "n d a!" is part of how safety talk is talked, though.

 

[baiyoke]

Gentlemen,

it is painful reading page after page of useless flood. Since when this topic became "philosophical"? to me this is very real stuff. I dive alone often, even when I am with somebody it isn't any better. I am with Eric on this one. Can we come closer to some kind of conservative guidelines on how to never blackout, on how to reduce danger of BO when it happens and such other vital points.



this was very real question and I haven't seen anybody answering

Clearly most of this thread go over your head. Fair enough. But it doesn't make sense to post it like a critique, calling other posts useless... after 6 pages you should instead ask yourself, if YOU perhaps have missed something... Writing the above is a bit like going to a fottball game, shouting at other people, because they don't wear boxing gloves... quite pointless...

Nobody is stopping you from starting a very "real" straight forward thread entitled "conservative guidelines on how to never blackout, on how to reduce danger of BO when it happens and such other vital points"... There are allready similar threads if you use the search function....

 

[sjurba]

I think you missed my point slightly Simos.What I was trying to comunicate is that forbidding something is seldom the awnser,if you use the word; never ,then you forbid something,I am an advocate of buddy diving,and will be stressing the importance of the safety it brings, to my students.But I will not forbid it. Sometimes its not possible to have somebody with you when you dive,or when spearfishing, when your buddy is at a distance, focused on his own activities.Thats when we need to know how to behave to avoid s.w.b. For many of us interacting with the elements,is such a large part of what defines us as beings, that the joy of doing what we love, far outweighs the risks involved.

 

[ThomasB]

I think you missed my point slightly Simos.What I was trying to comunicate is that forbidding something is seldom the awnser,if you use the word; never ,then you forbid something,I am an advocate of buddy diving,and will be stressing the importance of the safety it brings, to my students.But I will not forbid it.

You can't and no one else does. It's just a simple advise.

Sometimes its not possible to have somebody with you when you dive,or when spearfishing, when your buddy is at a distance, focused on his own activities.

Mostly you don't want it to be possible. It's a priority thing, if you want to play it at its safest and that's your priority then you adapt to it. My 3 instructor are avid spear fishermen and they have safety standard to adapt to. They fish at 30-40 meters but use the buddy system as it was a line dive. Do they have fun? Judging from the monster they bing back I would say yes.

Instead if you din't want to play it at its safest then your priority changes and there's not much to add.

Thats when we need to know how to behave to avoid s.w.b. For many of us interacting with the elements,is such a large part of what defines us as beings, that the joy of doing what we love, far outweighs the risks involved.

You can't always know if and when you'll have a blackout.knowing that your last sentence apart from being _frightening_ from an instructor doesn't leave much space to any reply: if you're priority is doing what you love anyway no matters the risks involved than I can only wish you to be successful in what you do.

 

[Simos]

I think you missed my point slightly Simos.What I was trying to comunicate is that forbidding something is seldom the awnser,if you use the word; never ,then you forbid something,I am an advocate of buddy diving,and will be stressing the importance of the safety it brings, to my students.But I will not forbid it. Sometimes its not possible to have somebody with you when you dive,or when spearfishing, when your buddy is at a distance, focused on his own activities.Thats when we need to know how to behave to avoid s.w.b. For many of us interacting with the elements,is such a large part of what defines us as beings, that the joy of doing what we love, far outweighs the risks involved.

Apologies if I misundestood Sjurba. As Thomas mentioned, no one can 'forbid' anything in this context - everyone dives as they please at the end of the day and take the risks they are willing to take.

The word 'never' is there for a different reason, at least that's how I understand it - I don't think it was ever intended as a command forbidding anything but mostly to stress the point that you mention exactly i.e. that it's important at all times to have a buddy.

90% of the time won't do and while I don't remember the details, I very recently was reading about a spearfishing fatality where there were people around but someone actually did the last dive of the day when everyone else was getting back in the boat and very sadly, had a SWB and died.

Perhaps I have a different experience with people in general (not only in a freediving context) - I have found that unless you specifically give (most) people a crystal clear rule that leaves no room for umbiquity, people will either not take sufficient notice or just interpret your advice/instructions in the way that suits their situation.

At least if you have given crystal clear advice, even if it sounds paternalistic to some of us, then even if people choose to ignore they do so fully knowing they are outside the remit of the guideline/rule/advise and perhaps they should be super-careful or understand what they are getting into.

If there is room for subjectivity and as a result people think or fooling themselves that they are still somehow adhering to the advice when in reality they are not, I think there is an even more dangerous situation.

 

[sjurba]

I see your point,but I also can see the reason for questioning the "chiseled in stone" rule ,Here in Norway, the Freediving clubs have as a rule that solodiving leads to exclution...But is that the way to go? this excludes the ones which needs guidence the most?

 

[esom]

I see your point,but I also can see the reason for questioning the "chiseled in stone" rule ,Here in Norway, the Freediving clubs have as a rule that solodiving leads to exclution...But is that the way to go? this excludes the ones which needs guidence the most?

no no no, sjurba you get something all too wrong here. it´s just a simple advice...
btw: never forget that it´s just an advice!

a few more reasonable rules and our dogmatic circle gets even more beautiful. i don´t want to take anything away from someone, to whom this slogan is connected to advice in his/her freediving context.
at least on this forum and obviously in some more wet contexts it´s not solely an advice anymore.

 

[Simos]

no no no, sjurba you get something all too wrong here. it´s just a simple advice...
btw: never forget that it´s just an advice!

a few more reasonable rules and our dogmatic circle gets even more beautiful. i don´t want to take anything away from someone, to whom this slogan is connected to advice in his/her freediving context.
at least on this forum and obviously in some more wet contexts it´s not solely an advice anymore.

Ok fair point Andy - I am trying to imagine a typical lake day organised by a freediving club where everybody goes off and dives in pairs and someone insists to dive by themselves and does so. I think it's safe to assume than most clubs wouldn't accept that and wouldn't have that person back unless they were willing to not do their own thing. So it's true, it's not just advice.

Legalities/insurance aside, do you think that's dogmatic? In the 'ideal' club in terms of promoting safety, should that be accepted as ok? Would it be better to keep such a person in the club and allow to freedive alone than turning them away?

I think an important think to consider before anyone answers is to also think 'who' their answer is actually better for - the instructor? The guy diving alone? The club? The rest of the divers? The freediving community in general?

 

[ThomasB]

no no no, sjurba you get something all too wrong here. it´s just a simple advice...
btw: never forget that it´s just an advice!

a few more reasonable rules and our dogmatic circle gets even more beautiful. i don´t want to take anything away from someone, to whom this slogan is connected to advice in his/her freediving context.
at least on this forum and obviously in some more wet contexts it´s not solely an advice anymore.

Just out of curiosity have any of you guys been banned for solo diving?

 

[trux]

at least on this forum and obviously in some more wet contexts it´s not solely an advice anymore.

Well, personally, in contrary, I believe that DB is very openminded and tolerant community. You can perhaps find dogmatics telling nothing else than "never dive alone", but frankly I believe a friendly advice to find a buddy and education, together with some very good tips, is the much more common way it is usually addressed here. And in the same time you will find also advices how to improve your safety if you do trust your experience and decide to dive alone anyway.

So to conclude, when you see a thread where a freediver is given the advice (or the command) not to dive alone, just jump in and give him your advice how to assure his safety better. It is as simple as that. I think there is place for both appoaches. Trying to ban the sentence "never dive alone" is certainly not going to help.

 

[esom]

I have found that unless you specifically give (most) people a crystal clear rule that leaves no room for umbiquity, people will either not take sufficient notice or just interpret your advice/instructions in the way that suits their situation.

these things are selfulfilling. if freediving is a globe where there are experts able to put truth into clear rules, freedivers will be in need for clear rules. it´s just as much a question, of how far we have gone already, as it is a question of how people are in general. what do you want to be true?

At least if you have given crystal clear advice, even if it sounds paternalistic to some of us, then even if people choose to ignore they do so fully knowing they are outside the remit of the guideline/rule/advise and perhaps they should be super-careful or understand what they are getting into.

getting into what? safe solodiving? that does not exist. don´t you know this?
... see the problem of this? sjurba mentioned something similar. i think, "scared and alone" is more realistic than your idea of "being super careful", which is btw fair enough if it´d works like this.

 

[esom]

Well, personally, in contrary, I believe that DB is very openminded and tolerant community. You can perhaps find dogmatics telling nothing else than "never dive alone", but frankly I believe a friendly advice to find a buddy and education, together with some very good tips, is the much more common way it is usually addressed here. And in the same time you will find also advices how to improve your safety if you do trust your experience and decide to dive alone anyway.

So to conclude, when you see a thread where a freediver is given the advice (or the command) not to dive alone, just jump in and give him your advice how to assure his safety better. It is as simple as that. I think there is place for both appoaches. Trying to ban the sentence "never dive alone" is certainly not going to help.

fair points, we are far from banning "n d a!" though. i do not want to change this any time soon!

 

[Simos]

Just out of curiosity have any of you guys been banned for solo diving?

No but I am sure you will be banned from most clubs pretty quickly Thomas if you solo dive during any activities / holidays / training sessions organised by a club. But I am sure you will also eventually be banned if you are doing anything that is compromising safety (in the eyes of those running the club of course). eg if you are insisting on hyperventilating aggressively and pushing to the limit and end up with a BO on every other dive.

I don't think the above is unreasonable. To be honest, even freediving alone aside, everyone has their way of diving and if you are joining a group you need to respect those things or if not compatible, perhaps find another group or organise your own.

 

[FreeRestriction]

heres another example of a young man diving alone who recently died at deans blue hole.

Divers search for man at Bluehole | The Tribune

Heres a thread on spearboard of this young man talking about how he can only dive deep if he hyperventilates and that he has no buddy. everyone tried their best to tell him to stop all of the above at once. 3 weeks after the start of the thread he unfourtunatly died freediving alone.

How Much Deeper Can i Dive With freediving fins and proper gear? - Spearboard.com - The World's Largest Spearfishing Diving Social Media Forum

 

[esom]

heres another example of a young man diving alone who recently died at deans blue hole.

Divers search for man at Bluehole | The Tribune

Heres a thread on spearboard of this young man talking about how he can only dive deep if he hyperventilates and that he has no buddy. everyone tried their best to tell him to stop all of the above at once. 3 weeks after the start of the thread he unfourtunatly died freediving alone.

How Much Deeper Can i Dive With freediving fins and proper gear? - Spearboard.com - The World's Largest Spearfishing Diving Social Media Forum

i read the thread. what i see there is a scared young man. he mentioned three times how scared he is of having a blackout. just imagine yourself being that afraid and ambitious (which can be a fear too) at the same time. if someone now tells you "you don´t have to be scared of having a blackout..." couldn´t this be a step out of a dangerous spiral?

i don´t want to say "tell anybody who asks on a forum that he shouldn´t be worried". you would tell this to someone you don´t know and to many others you don´t even know of.
point is, we are far from what i do not mean to say. ...but very close to the opposite.

he asked many detailed quetions too. seemingly expecting that there is someone out there having an answer. i commented on the dynamics of "doing it right" and the fact that this requires someone else to know for you. this "right" is deattached from you and your needs. to know this and not know this at the same time, is confusing...

as i said before: accidents become to be produced in parts* by our freediving community. a internet forum is a particular part of this community. by answering questions that seem to be clear enough to be put in words, we agree and support activly an idea of clearity, although this is often as unrealistic as it gets.

what is the above thread and the one trux´ mentioned an example for? i hope there are many different answers to this. (i´m not asking to write them down in a post)


*i think the idea of "parts" i mentioned here, is one example of a clearity hitting reality not at all.

 

[trux]

"you don´t have to be scared of having a blackout..." couldn´t this be a step out of a dangerous spiral?

I really do not see what makes you think that telling people not to be afraid of blackout would protect them from blacking out. On my mind it can be only worse if a newcomer with no experience has no clue about the real and high possibility of blackout, and does not fear it. A young guy with the sole goal of reaching greater depths and longer bottom times, really should not be diving without any supervision. Once he knows all the theory, has the experience with sambas and blackouts, has enough knowledge and experience to properly evalute the risks, and knows how to minimalize them, it is up to his decision whether he wants to take the risk or not. But a young beginner with no clues about what he is doing, simply does not belong underwater alone. Lack of fear would make it only worse, on my mind.

 

[esom]

ground has become more and more soft over the discussion. i feel it´s liquid now, time to learn diving.


anyone who wants to share ideas or questions, please write a pm.

thanks