Mifsud announces STA WR attempt

[hudasmt]

I think its best for AIDA certified World Record to be held during AIDA National or International Competition only. Maybe that can be propose to AIDA to take out any doubts their may be or otherwise reduce the amount of doubts coz its impossible to please everybody.

I have no idea how those world record things are set or if its even in the rule book or guidelines of AIDA. But as a normal recreational freediving spearo, Maybe we can start a petition for it as a starter.

I also think that bringing judges to world record attempts should not be paid or finance by the athlete, it should rather be finance or paid by AIDA to really clear lots of doubts and if its possible, having a different nationality to judge the attempting athlete.

I also think that if there are any doubts in a competition or attempts, In my opinion that it should be made private or make a formal written complaint to the organizing committee to avoid blemishing an athlete's hard work and training.

We all work hard to reach the status of our performances and i think its only fair that we give athletes the benefit of cherishing their performances based upon official results unless proven otherwise.

Just my opinion.:friday:friday:friday

 

[Kars]

Thanks for the video link Oceanman, indeed a clear samba. Stephan pushed it right to his limit, and I like it when athletes push their OWN limits.

Furthermore your constructive input for improving competition regulations and trust is welcome here:
Rule Improvements: Static
and here:
Rule Improvements: Constant Weight

Love, Courage and Water,

Kars

 

[TimoP]

Is there any doping tests in world record attempts, like is in world championships?

There is, it's in the AIDA rules.

So I have no that kind of doubt for this WR. Of course someone can say that there are always some new stuff etc, that you can't find in tests. But that's why test must get better and better. AIDA must be more aware with O2 tricks. Now it's hard to get an AIDA WR with doping (there is a good test), but all too easy to get it with pure O2. I mean in general now, not this WR.

 

[rxcnc2]

Does anyone know when/where the pre-requisite performance for this WR attempt was established?

 

[TimoP]

On this video Stade 2 - France 2
We can see on the contrary that Mifsud is very close to samba when he gets out (~half point of the video).

Thank you very much for this video!
I'm really relieved

I saw two things making me more sure, this could really be a clean attempt:
- He packed really A LOT! He could have 11 L air as he has said, so it's 2,3 O2 from normal air. It's much oxygen for a slim man like he is. (Oxygen is the thing, you know )
- In this video you can see better that white box. It's seems to has a more open consruction than in the other video you could see. So it's not so extremely suitable for leading the oxygen to some direction as I though by the earlier video. But still, he did the final packing there...a little damn for that. A kind request: if Stephane will try third official record attempt in that same pool again, could he do his packing a little different place, just in the front of judges? (If that's not already then in new AIDA rules).

He hadn't hard fight in the end as usually seen in the end of STA performances. But many of the bests don't have it. If he has the mental side that kind like in his "poetic description", he could be relaxed to the end. And that's really important, I think, if you want achieve a really good anpea result.

So I apologise, that I arraised pure O2 issue so strongly to THIS discussion. First videos and pictures about this case were leading my thoughts to that direction: "What the damn happend there ". Now e.g. pure O2 issue is under discussion in an other treath, which is really good and constructive solution. Thanks Kars for that! Better to think and act so that we get really good rules and procedures before AIDA maybe will have a very bad and difficult case in it's hands. We all (with AIDA) really learned about this case and discussion, I'm sure.

 

[spar8]

AIDA must be more aware with O2 tricks. Now it's hard to get an AIDA WR with doping (there is a good test), but all too easy to get it with pure O2. I mean in general now, not this WR.

My opinion is, that there should be more worried about the epo. It can be more dangerous to divers, than for bicyclers, because tight blood and slow heart rate is not allways a good thing. And it's allmost impossible to get caught, without surprise tests. If you use that stuff, and stop using it week before test, you have full advantage, without possibility to get caught. (that is what the big boys says, I don't know reality, I'm not doing any tests) But few suprise test before the competitions and record attempts should give better result. But epo test is too expensive to do very often, and still difficult to get right test timing, that is the reason, why Hb test is better than nothing. At least the other competitors and audience can see the situation.
And I'm not saying, that we must forget O2 tricks, of course that should check more carefully, but still we should not forget the epo and beta blockers.

 

[TimoP]

And I'm not saying, that we must forget O2 tricks, of course that should check more carefully, but still we should not forget the epo and beta blockers.

With present AIDA test that's true, I think, and it's a finacial problem, too. There absolutely should be some - even just some per year - surprice AIDA or WADA tests for top freedivers during trainings, so that test includes EPO and quick beta blockers. So there should be a real risk for those thinking to use those stuff, so that they can be caught in a good surprise test. BTW at least in Finland also WADA/Finnish ADT has done tests also for top freedivers, and I think that included EPO and beta blockers, too. Why not to take WADA tests included also elsewhere, if not done yet.

 

[efattah]

I don't agree this. It's a very good measurement, if we have older results available. We know, that natural Hb don't change very much, no matter, how hard you train. 30% increasement is not possible. If Hb is naturally 150g/l, it's impossible to get it to 190 without doping.

Sadly, this is totally false. Murat started at 150g/L, then during his FRC interval training went up to 210g/L. He stopped that kind of training and soon he went back to 150g/L.

Personally my Hb has ranged from 132g/L to 175g/L.

 

[efattah]

Thank you very much for this video!
I'm really relieved
I saw two things making me more sure, this could really be a clean attempt:
- He packed really A LOT!

Watching the video, it doesn't change my opinion. They show 17 packs. I usually pack 40+ times to get 3L extra.

At the end, it looks more like CO2 shakiness. At the end of enriched O2 statics, I am extremely shaky, in fact my whole body starts to tremble about 2 minutes before the end of the static, even though SaO2 = 98%.

 

[spar8]

Sadly, this is totally false. Murat started at 150g/L, then during his FRC interval training went up to 210g/L. He stopped that kind of training and soon he went back to 150g/L.

Personally my Hb has ranged from 132g/L to 175g/L.

I'm pretty sure, that your personal range is usually around 150, and 175 has been a little bit dehydration statement, not even the top condition? So we can see, that your training efect is about 10 %/20g/l. Same to me, my typical Hb is 155. With active and hard training it might raise up to 164. Highest value was about 174, slightly dehydrated.
If we think, that everyone can raise their Hb from 150 to 210 without doping, then all runners and skiers trains wrong way, by using the high level camps, because with that, they can get less than 20g/l higher Hb, but with FRC, all of them could increase 60g/l their Hb? Most of people can't get that big change to blood even with epo.
Maybe this is not a fair test for really exceptional peoples, but really often it's better than nothing. And because there is no penalties, why exceptional peoples should care anything from this test? Anyway they get everytime the same top result, if they frc train hb high like they should do if it works.

 

[efattah]

I'm pretty sure, that your personal range is usually around 150, and 175 has been a little bit dehydration statement, not even the top condition?

NO, not at all, what is your problem ??

I set the constant weight WR in 2001 with Hb=134g/L, in top condition. During intensive FRC training in 2005, it went up to 175g/L, and it remained that way all day every day for weeks, irrelevant of hydration.

In Sebastien Murat's case, when his hemoglobin went up to 210g/L, his aerobic capacity was nearly zero. He could not maintain any type of aerobic pace for any type of exercise. His blood was way too thick, and his training was 100% anaerobic.

If you think that simply increasing your hemoglobin results in increased aerobic performance, then you need to do more research.

For Tour de France cyclists to use Sebastien Murat's training method to reach 210g/L would be useless. They would finish worst than last.

Anyway, even using EPO to increase hemoglobin will only give you a max of 2 minute increase, not the 4 minute increase that Mifsud got in 4 months.

 

[TimoP]

Watching the video, it doesn't change my opinion. They show 17 packs. I usually pack 40+ times to get 3L extra.

At the end, it looks more like CO2 shakiness. At the end of enriched O2 statics, I am extremely shaky, in fact my whole body starts to tremble about 2 minutes before the end of the static, even though SaO2 = 98%.

I see your point.
For me this video didn't look out so bad as the first one. He packed...quite a a lot. You can see it in his back, too, when he is floating there after packing. His packing style was somehow "strong", so counting the number of packs (seen in the video...only) maybe don't tell how much air was packed. But, I hadn't said that all seems to be 100 % ok (altought better for me).

BTW Eric, as we know you have tried many, many different things in freediving. I'm getting a little worried about...I hope you haven't tried Everything

 

[TRITON]

NO, not at all, what is your problem ??

I set the constant weight WR in 2001 with Hb=134g/L, in top condition. During intensive FRC training in 2005, it went up to 175g/L, and it remained that way all day every day for weeks, irrelevant of hydration.

In Sebastien Murat's case, when his hemoglobin went up to 210g/L, his aerobic capacity was nearly zero. He could not maintain any type of aerobic pace for any type of exercise. His blood was way too thick, and his training was 100% anaerobic.

If you think that simply increasing your hemoglobin results in increased aerobic performance, then you need to do more research.

For Tour de France cyclists to use Sebastien Murat's training method to reach 210g/L would be useless. They would finish worst than last.

Anyway, even using EPO to increase hemoglobin will only give you a max of 2 minute increase, not the 4 minute increase that Mifsud got in 4 months.

So,does that mean that for example aerobic training(bicycle) that I regularly do has no possitive effect on my apnea results??

 

[chrismar]

So,does that mean that for example aerobic training(bicycle) that I regularly do has no possitive effect on my apnea results??

That's certainly what many athletes have found. In fact, some of us have tried and had significant (10-20%) performance drops by doing aerobic training, myself included.

 

[UffeDex]

About 10 months ago I did a un-scientific test with packing:

I did NO packs which gave me a time of 6:00 (5.8L lung).
A week after I tried 8 packs.
Next week after that I did 16 packs.

I came to the (perhaps far too simple) conclusion that each (standard size) pack gives me ~8 seconds on top of my full lungs.

Of course, the "feeling of the day" is a very important key factor here but it still gave me some "figures"...

A half year later I did 9:11 with 21 (comfortable) packs.

Whatif I can do 40 (comfortable) packs for the whole dive?
Would that add an additional 2:30 (i.e. 20 pack * 8s) to my current 20 pack?

Will I then be able to do 9:00 + 2:30 = 11:30 ???
(assuming I can keep the pack size equal ... which I can't


From what I saw (heard) on the video, Stephane packed "til he blasted"
("Just another biscuit?" - *Monthy Phyton*)

Personally I would never ever be able to pack like that for more than a few seconds - it hurts like hell!


--Ulf Dextegen
Sweden
(who have done 55 packs, whereas the last 30 got smaller and smaller in size)

 

[TimoP]

From what I saw (heard) on the video, Stephane packed "til he blasted"
...
Personally I would never ever be able to pack like that for more than a few seconds - it hurts like hell!
....
Ulf (who have done 55 packs, whereas the last 30 got smaller and smaller in size)

I agree, in the video also the last packs were very strong and big. It was different than that normal style, where the last packs are smaller. As I have said earlier, if he REALLY can inhale and pack 11 L, it's a really big amount of air to a slim man of his size.

 

[cebaztian]

I believe that you will reach a better "VO2min" if you start out with a high VO2max. Leaving adequate time inbetween the two styles of training.

I also believe that we within the next decade will see a 15 min breath hold - it will be a question of money to motivate the right persons to train.

11.35 is plausible.

I also believe there is cheating going on in the sport.

Sebastian

 

[Goran Colak]

Well 11 L is really not that much of air guys... We know Dave dives whit about 15 L and I have packed, on one test whit Spiro meter about 12 L of air, so abut 4 L above my lung capacity... and all that while standing. So I am sure with training aiming just to increase my pack volume I'll be able to pack more than 5 L of air... But I'm sure that will not bring me above 10min in static And I am not that big to... I used to be but now I'm about 79-80kg on 187cm.

 

[TimoP]

A clip form Croatian results 2009

Top Mens DYN
1.Goran Colak 222m

Goran, maybe you have trained DYN a lot, like Dave?

If I'm right, it's something like this:
- Dave, a long man with very big lungs, trained especially DYN, =>248 m
- Goran, quite a long man with big lungs, trained especially DYN?, =>222m
- Stephane, a slim normal size man, with normal lungs, but has said he can pack a (very) big amount of air, trained this year almost only STA (for attemp) => 11:35 min
- Tom, a long man with (very?) big lungs, trained especially STA for attemps, => 10:12 min
- Ulf, a normal size man with normal size lungs and "normal" packing, mental STA training only, => 9:11 min (in trainings)

 

[Goran Colak]

Well I hope you are not saying that I do not train static Timo... because I do, at least once every month And above all, I did even more statics last year!

No seriously, guys, I think we forgot the basic principal in freediving, you remember the old one... There are no limits... That's the biggest truth in out sport. So yes this is possible, a 15min static is also possible, a CW to 155m is possible and the 333m in dynamic is possible... This treat did not emerge because Stephan's result is impossible it is because he did have bean accused for using doping before. I am shure that is this have been done by Herb or Martin, no one will talk about cheating.

This do not mean i agree or disagree whit anything about's Stephan's performance, I'm just killing time before a dynamic session... Denmark if quite close