New STA record attempt pending

[Billextreme]

Can someone... maybe Haydn, give me a good reason why AIDA should treat Mifsud different than Herbert, Tom, Stig, Mandy, Martin, Carlos, Tanya and Natalia etc.. etc.

AIDA Fance do not add EPO test to there doping test. (at least not to the last 3 years of FRA Records) EPO is not incl in normal doping tests.

/B

 

[Goran Colak]

Bill, how the test must look like for detecting EPO?

This is posible only from the blood or how?

Tanx!

 

[GreG.]

Well, EPO tests are usually done using urin, not blood... anyway, I am a National Judge and Guillaume Nery too. It's not the first time that a national record exceed world record... And it is probably not the least.
:friday

 

[shoutatthesky]

So if there were AIDA judges there and the doping test (including EPO) was done then I don't see why it is not a WR. Is it just because Mifsud didn't go through the correct process for ratification of a WR and only applied to AIDA France for ratification of a NR?

Can some one educate me?

 

[Haydn]

Hi Bill,

Of course, athletes should be treated the same. However, its not a fair point to argue that if its ok for the others it should be ok for Stephane. It shouldnt be ok for the others to find that Aida World Records are broken and in a disputed fashion of red tape. That does a dis-service to Aida and devalues our athletes performance.

A genuine beating of a world record holder, enhances the value of both athletes in a spirit of endeavour and unity. The highest level of honour we can show to any competitor is by doing our very best to beat them, and by so doing, we raise the bar, sending out the call for a renewed challenge. If Aida were able to accept these genuine record efforts, it would add honour to each performance rather than dilute the performance of both athletes. In other words, the athlete who attempts to beat Stephane brings honour to Stephane as well as to himself.

Whats unusual here is that if I were in the pool at the same time as Stephane and we both started the static at the same time and I came up say 30 seconds sooner than him, I would hold the World Record even though it was obvious he did a better time.

So, the question is not "why AIDA should treat Mifsud different than Herbert, Tom, Stig, Mandy, Martin, Carlos, Tanya and Natalia etc.. etc", but why they cant create a system that accounts for the performance of these World class athletes? So that the title of World Record holder goes to the right person.

All it takes is someone writing a sentance or two to the rules. Its so easy, I dont understand why nobody seems to get the point. Change the rules and we embrace Stephane, Umberto and I guess a few other stalwarts of the sport. Its what any organsiation should do.

"It's not the first time that a national record exceed world record." Thats another problem that needs resolving.

Its only a matter of drafting rules that cater for the performance.

 

[Ale Andres]

May be the solution of all this is not recognize individual records attempts anymore. I think that it's time to stop with this, freediving was born with this kind of world record attempts in a time when there weren't competitions, but now there are enough. Can we give the same status to a WR in competition, with only one chance, the stress and all that stuff and a WR in wich you can try several times, judges are only for you, many days to try, etc, etc? I think that it's not fair for those who make WR in competitions. In that case this discussion would not be happening, if Stephane wants to make a WR he has to participate in a competition, no argue.

 

[Marwan]

i just have a question that might seem silly, but is stephane asking that his record be recognized by aida? maybe he doesnt care and regards himself as the world record holder no matter who ratifies that....
Dont get me wrong im not against aida, but my personal view is that, the current picture being portrayed here spells monopoly and maybe some bureacracy...
while i see aida's point of view, im trying to look from a different perspective, freediving is a very niche sport, most competitions, including the worlds hardly get any media coverage, i think its far from being included in olympics etc....i think there has to be some level of flexibility to promote the sport.. the average spectator would not understand why the offical world record is 9:14 while there is a well known athete that made 10:04...to me it sounds like something should be done ...with the thought of promoting the sport in mind at no expense of integrity of course, to the non technical spectator.. no need to assume that the athlete and alll hs countrymen are cheats right...im just saying that with the tight controls around the sport and having a single body controlling it like that, i dont see the sport getting widespread to the less informed public in the near term.., its becoming tooo technical (think mayol and majorca and lets try and bring back those days) maybe aida could consider some changes, im quite inexperineced to recommend some, im sorry for that
just my opinion...

 

[GreG.]

Hi,

you're right, Stephane made a French National record attemp... and break it :ko
No world record is asked.

 

[Jorg]

All it takes is someone writing a sentance or two to the rules. Its so easy, I dont understand why nobody seems to get the point.

Haydn, so you think if someone does a 12 minute static, and it's filmed for television and broad casted worldwide then that record should be recognized?

BTW, I totally agree that at least the pool disciplines record attempts should be gone! There are so many pool competitions these days, that there is no need for someone to do record attempts in them. It makes it all more interesting. There aren't enough competitions for depth discipline, so that would still be okay to do record attempts.

 

[Monkey Matt]

Some interesting comments but the way I see it is that to do an AIDA world record all you have to is follow the AIDA world record rules and be a world class freediver. If you don't it is not an AIDA world record.
We had a situation in the UK some years ago when Fiona Gowland broke the British DNF record and exceeded the world record. A world record was not claimed because the rules for a national record were used. This meant no doping test and judges the same nationality as the athlete.
I believe there was then an effort to raise the funding for her to it a world record but it came to nothing.

 

[Haydn]

Fiona is a case in point. She broke the World Record but the rules robbed her of it because of judges being the wrong Nationality etc etc. Nothing to do with the performance but everything wrong with the person who drafted the rules. Whearas a 'foreign' athelete doing the same event at the same time alongside Fiona and using Fionas judges, and doing a shorter distance would have the world record. It wasnt a matter that Fiona didnt have a drugs test, I am sure she would have had one, if there was any point.

World Records only in a competition sounds ideal. But the big issue then will be Aida accepting the quality of the competition. Remember the Swiss debacle at the Dolphins comp? One year its Aida recognised, the next its not. Yet the judges were World Class Heimo Henke and I believe a previous Aida president and someone else, I cant remember (all were Aida recognised judges). In that comp Stephane broke the Aida World Record DWF (but was robbed by the rules of Aida) because they no longer sanctioned that comp. Those same judges gave my dwf a white card, but the rules robbed me of a National record. (funnily, had English judges of been there, it would have counted) but in those early days, the English judges were just inexperienced athletes, like me, that had judged once or twice before) far less experienced than Heimo etc.

This is why I say that records made in high profile International standard competitions should be recognised. Records attempted like Jorg suggests should also be recognised assuming they are judged and doped etc (the point being, the judges need not be Aida members if they are of equivalent experience or follow equivalent protocols.

 

[wolleneugebauer]

if you are ready to beat a current world record, you can go to a comp with wr-status. or you can ask the organizer to arrange this status for you.
now it is 2007. your example was in 2002(?). we have a complete new member board. forget the snow from the last winter.
stephane is blaming ourselves. I`am really furious about this.

greetings, wolle

 

[shoutatthesky]

Competitions are important I am sure but why would you want to limit records to comps. only? That sounds like an insane idea to me. Comps. are not what get the attention to freediving. It is the personalities that are put in a situation where they can fully test themselves against the current records, there own ability, and the ocean itself.
Many of you have made the point that in a competition you only get one attempt. Well why does that make a record more valid? I think a record should reflect human potential. We should allow the athlete to perform to the best they are capable of, not just the best they managed in that particular competition final.

 

[trux]

Haydn, is it really so difficult to understand that for getting a World Record certified, you have to fulfil conditions applicable to World Records? If the above mentioned competitors choose not to endure the WR conditions it was clearly their voluntery intention, and there is no reason why the condtions should be changed because of them. With your demand you are actually telling that the WR conditions are worthless and that WR should be allowed under the same conditions as NR - judges may be of the same nationality or even friends, no stricter controls, possibly no doping control (not in this case though), etc. I do not understand that you do not realize that it is nonsense. If it is so we can right abolish AIDA and tell that any performance is an official WR automatically, regardless of the conditions it was made under. What's so bad on having a NR higher than WR?

 

[Monkey Matt]

I agree 100% with Trux. You have to have rules and they have to be adhered to. If athletes don't like the current rules then make moves to change them before the attempt, if they can get enough AIDA members to agree. What you cannot do is change the rules to suit an athlete after the performance.
If Fiona's record attempt had followed the world record rules a dope testing kit would have been available on site and the Judges would have been the right nationality. Mistakes could still have been made by the Judges but if every thing was done correctly it would have been a world record. This assumes that funds were available to pay for doping kits, judges etc. If funds are not available then you get an AIDA National record that some may call an unofficial world record.

 

[Jorg]

Doping kits are just a waste of money... I'm working on a pretty disturbing article as we speak about doping. Crazy stuff... Conclusion for freediving is that doping tests are worthless the way we are doing them, but I guess that is not a big surprise. It's just an image thing...

 

[SanSan]

Actually doping is worthless in most (if not all) sports. Just look at the cyclists. How the f** can you go through tour the France if you are not doped (ok thats a personal opinion)? But as we heard in the last months testimonies of some world class cyclists we could easily conclude almost every pro is doped. If somebody says "i doped because i knew there is no chance they can catch me" this should be enough words for the whole system. Doping tests should be done when training and not after the comp.

And i'm sure there is doping present in freediving.

 

[Haydn]

The 2002 example was a long time ago and things have improved immensely, its just that Aida as THE World authority for freediving are innacurate to call a person a World Record holder when they blatantly are not, especially when they accept that a National record is greater. Surely its commonsense to accept that the person with the National record is the true World Record holder. The only thing that some people have mentioned, relates to a couple of spurious rules (nationality of judges etc) that cause the new record to be devalued to something less. Its this emphasis on the rules that you seem to prefer, rather than the empasis on the performance.

I reckon, we all agree that Stephane has smashed the World Record, but for the fact that his very experienced Aida judges were the wrong Nationality, that somehow suggests that his performance was not as good enough to be ratified.

The conditions that govern World Records should be more relevant to the performance . It is clear his performance was good enough. What wasnt good enough, is the rules that caused such unfairness in the first place.

I am all for changing the rules in this respect. We have a World Record performance and we are relegating it to a National record. Thats a disgrace.
We should be singing it from the roof tops.

Frankly, its no wonder that one by one, the worlds best freedivers are dis illusioned and go their own way. And that too, is a disgrace. Just imagine if the next world championships included Stephane, Umberto, Patrick, Pippin (how many more should I miss out). Its all about drafting rules that are inclusive and not exclusive. This is the responbsibility of the Worlds premier freediving organisation, Aida.

Great discussion guys. I promise not take the contrary view on the next thread.

 

[fcallagy]

Hadyn
Stephane and Patrick may be valid examples of top level peple who have for one reason or another fallen out with AIDA. Pipin does not compete any more nor does Umberto. I know in his day Pipin had problems with Aida but he was in charge of a rival association for recording record IAFD. Umberto has his own Apnea academy but I dont know that he had a major problem with Aida? Maybe I am wrong about Umberto but I never heard anything about it. Surely there is a problem with claiming a WR with national judges there is a clear conflict of intrest.
Are you are argueing maybe because you have known and seen past perfromances from Stephane and respect him as do I. There is no AIDA judges in Ireland at present, if I train to be a judge and show you a video of an unknown from Ireland doing 11 mins static and I pronounce this as a wr will you accept it? ( i know this is a slightly extreme example) or what other protocols will I need to have in place?

 

[trux]

... Surely its commonsense to accept that the person with the National record is the true World Record holder

I am sorry but it is not. And it is exactly so in almost any other sport I know. The freediver who wants to break a World Record is very well aware of the rules, so there is absolutely nothing what prevents him or her from having it ratified as such if he/she wants. There is no reason to abandon the rules, and making world class records more open for frauds. Please note that I do not claim that any of the above mentioned NR was a fraud, I am just telling that rules for WR are stricter for a good reason and if a competitor choses not to follow the rules, he is very well aware of the consequences and that such record will simply be no official WR. If he/she wishes to be a WR holder, there is nothing simpler than inviting international AIDA judges, or doing the record during a world class competition (to save the cost of an individual WR attempt). I see absolutely nothing disgraceful in not recognizing NR as WR and would not like seeing the rule changed.

In Stephan's case it was a clear and intentional provocation not to follow the international rules and claiming WR despite it - it was a choice, not an accident. I let aside if his anger toward AIDA is justified or not, but it does not change anything on the fact that he chose intentionally and voluntarily not to be the official AIDA WR holder, but rather just a NR holder, and claiming the WR despite it. In this case he is at least right that his attempt was the best NR performance, unlike at his last DNF NR where he claimed a "world record" with his 213m despite of a higher existing NR of 215m of Tom Sietas.

The conclusion is - there is absolutely nothing wrong with the current WR rules, there is only a problem with certain egos not being able to bend to the rules.