Potential speafishing ban in South Wales

[Andy Davies]

This is an email I received from Phil Coates SWSFC@aol.com concerning potential byelaws (see Byelaw 43 for spearfishing)for the future in South Wales:


Dear Mr Davies
No consultation yet pending.
We are yet to fully discuss in Committee in order to even frame any proposed text.
Below I append what Committee are likely to consider !!

Be aware that in a forthcoming "mini" review of our byelaws Committee are keen to consult on a district wide ban on spearfishing of all types.
It comes about as a consequence of the existing byl preventing foul hooking being proposed for extension to flounder spiking. Members thought all such spiking should be prohibited.
I have taken informal soundings of BSAC (who are in support) & Welsh Assoc (no resp yet).
Who else might I contact - organisation wise?

Regards

Phil Coates

Future Quarterly Item – Partial Review of Byelaws

Recommendation

That Members’ views be provided on the draft byelaws below and to note that some informal consultation has commenced with some Associations etc. The matter to then be referred to the 28th September 2007 Quarterly meeting to decide whether to make any byelaws for formal advertisement.

NB The below is a stop gap and whole- scale change of the byelaws might be appropriate when new SFCs take shape with a new remit under new (Marine Bill) powers over a new (All Wales) area.

(a) Possible changes to existing byelaws

Revocation of Byelaw 45 - Scallops – since SI 1717 2005 is more fulsome. Keeping this byelaw might be argued as confusing matters and duplication.

Byelaw 8 – Minimum Landing Size (MLS) for bass – to increase to 40 cm for rod / hook caught fish (i.e. 37.5 cm remains for all net caught fish)

Without this tweak and assuming a Welsh bass SI (MLS of 37.5cm) comes into force, then this byelaw could also be revoked.

Byelaw 34 - Set and drift nets

An easement possibly relax 200m length of set net (possibly also drift net) to 400m possibly only 1000m offshore of the Astronomic low water mark as shown on the latest Admiralty chart.

Possibility of changes to Byl 30 to allow conditional fixed net fishing at Tusker rock (Porthcawl) and Cardiff bay

(NB Need to prior consult Environment Agency, by reference to the provisions of the Salmon Act 1986).

Byelaw 41 – Boat fishing returns

Bass bag limit of 5 fish per person. As requested of SFCs by the Minister.

Clarify that the 5 pots and 100m net is a per boat limit (not per person).

Byelaw 43 – foul hooking

To extend foul hooking to cover also cover any form of “spiking & spearing” at low tide and spear fishing whether using aqualung or not.

(NB: Pre consultation with Diving associations is in hand)

 

[Pastor]

I have taken informal soundings of BSAC (who are in support)

No SHIT!! :head

Who else might I contact - organisation wise?

Try PETA :head

 

[dave]

No real surprises there! Sea Fisheries Committees are largely composed of commercial fishing interests, so anything that restricts recreational fishing is always going to be popular, its like having a Planning Committee composed of property developers:head
Although they have the powers to bring it any byelaws they like, as a public committee they must justify their decisions, I would be very interested to hear their reasons for banning spearfishing. I would suggest making a request under the freedom of information act
cheers
dave
Spearguns by Spearo uk ltd finest supplier of speargun, monofins, speargun and freediving equipment

 

[Robbo66]

This could well be serious. The one major aspect that he has shown some lattitude on would be to ban suba/competitions and omit free diving.
I think we should concentrate on this major and unfair method, and support a ban for spearing with tanks as they have done in France, Italy etc.

How on earth can you compare spiking a flounder in 2ft of muddy water to free diving and spearfishing in clear water at depth.

There again seems to be little basic information and knowledge about spearfishing shown by the committee judging by this off the cuff inclusion of sprearfishing.

We should offer to provide another side to the argument through perhaps a presentation to the committee, offering an insite into methods, fish selection, respect for size limits, % of lost fish against those succesfully secured, the social aspect and the fact that we would be the first in the EU to ban free spearo on the grounds of spiking on foot.

Not a surprise that the BSAC bubblers lot would support it, they are bound to.

Imagine if we had organized competitions similar to the rest of the UK.....I would find it very difficult to defend our position and remain totally opposed to competiton culling, semi restricted by species, size etc or not. The weigh in's just draw attention everything that's negative about the sport and provide ammunition to start a national ban by stealth.

 

[Willpower]

Ouch, sounds like these guys have abit of a thing against us spearo's. I can kind of understand the logic behind preventing foul hooking, as it is and has been a technique of poaching fish. Extending this to flattie spiking and then spearing would reflect a lack of understanding of the original purpose of this law and also the sport of spearfishing itself. I dislike the concept of banning recreations in the extreme, and as a person who both spears and scuba dives, i am very dissappointed by BSAC's as yet 'informal' position. Whatever happened to live and let live? Both scuba and spearing/freediving are challenging, addictive wonderful sports and this them and us positioning is damaging. I hope for the sake of all of us that this banning rubbish gets canned where it belongs, if you need any support you can count on me for what it 's worth.

 

[dave]

Robbo,
Have you heard of a concept called "divide and rule"? Spearos are already a tiny group without attacking each other
There is no room for any leeway on this. A dead fish is a dead fish. The fish, and the environment do not care if it was killed in a "sporting" manner or not, scuba, freediving or wading it makes no difference.
The best way forward at the the moment is to send a very polite email to the SWSFC expressing your concerns, asking what their reasoning is, and to be kept informed. Offering to support partial bans, or indeed giving them any information at all is not helpful at this point
cheers
dave
Spearguns by Spearo uk ltd finest supplier of speargun, monofins, speargun and freediving equipment

 

[Robbo66]

Will,

Many thanks for your support.

Dave,

It’s not a case for divide and rule, they have clearly shown they have an issue with the tank brigade in their most recent response, perhaps offering/considering to reduce the ban to this sector only as they have done in France and Italy.

See response below:
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Dear Mr Davies
Thank you for your comments and for further leads. I have made contact with the secretary of the representative body as a consequence.

The byl draft does not arise as a consequence of the foul hooking one per se. That, by small change of wording, would become the delivery mechanism. A revised text for byl 43.
The rationale is that from a proposal that the Committee ban flounder spiking (forking at low tide) the comparisons with other "spiking" are clear.

You raise other matters eg such as differentiation between snorkel and subaqua & competition v pleasure.
No doubt "aficionados" of the snorkelling technique will wish to differentiate between the selectivity of the technique cf spiking of flatfish at short range in muddy waters.

The matter is at a very early stage. I would be happy to bring all aspects to the Committees attention.

""One possibility would be to exclude snorkel techniques, although the enforceability of this would require consideration.(cf sub aqua used )"".

Also, careful consideration of the grounds for such differentaition. I expect the Minister to say that a spiked fish does not care how its captor breathes, and any argument would have to major on the "scale" argument you mention.

The procedures are that any byelaw drafted would have wider advertisement for receipt of formal comment on which there would be further dialogue.
Fishing News & local papers are the normal medium - the extent of which is determined by the Minister.

I trust that this is useful further background.

Regards

Phil Coates
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Andy had sent an email expressing concerns, and if you’d read his 1st post, you would realise it was a reply from SWSFC based on Andy’s initial request for an explanation.

I totally disagree that ‘a dead fish is a dead fish’. This view is way too simplistic, and opens the doors for PETA and other such organizations to push for a total ban, to include free diving spearfishing. Even then we would need to show that during free air technique, the catch is generally limited due to the difficulties involved.

Rob

 

[dave]

Also, careful consideration of the grounds for such differentaition. I expect the Minister to say that a spiked fish does not care how its captor breathes,

Rob

I think that part of the response (which i had also recieved from Phil Coates) covers your point. Also, I may be being a bit slow, but can you point out the bit that says they have a particular problem with scuba spearing?
Arguing about personal morals is pointless.
A dead fish IS a dead fish, it doesn't care if it was killed in a manner which one person thought was sporting or not. I think you will find that PETA want a total ban anyway
In fisheries management 3 things matter;
1/The number of fish killed
2/The damage done to the environment in the process
3/the political clout of those involved

Unfortunately 3 is generally the most important:head
I dont have any numbers, but i suspect scuba divers who stab the odd flatty outnumber freedive spearos by a big margin

This is part of a much wider issue, the erosion of the rights of an individual to collect food from the sea in any non damaging manner they see fit, in order to preserve what is left for commercial interests
Further down the list is a proposal of a recreational bag limit for bass. 5 bass a day may seem a reasonable number, but it sets a dangerous precedent. There are no commercial quotas for bass, so what is the reason for restricting recreational catches? Also very interesting are the proposals to increase the allowable lengths of gillnets, and increase the minimum landing size for rod caught fish (but not netted fish) Anyone see any possible links there?

cheers
dave
Spearguns by Spearo uk ltd finest supplier of speargun, monofins, speargun and freediving equipment

 

[Robbo66]

Dave,

It’s obvious they have considered Scuba Spearing as a problem as they have already differentiated it away from free spearing. They have a problem with the whole concept at the moment, and thankfully they have highlighted one aspect (scuba) and at least shown some willingness to possibly compromise.

I also expect the Minister to state this, however through education and explanation directly through presentation and or lobbying, we can perhaps avoid a total blanket ban.

It has nothing to do with personal morals, I’m looking at the wider issue and how spearfishing is viewed generally by an under informed general public and also the far more dangerous local governing bodies.

How many times have you needed to explain that you do infact ‘hold your breath’ when describing the sport ?. The majority think we use a tank in my experience.

I make no secret of the fact that myself and many others find it difficult to defend scuba spearing, and for the sake of the WHOLE sport, we may have to accept as other EU countries have, to lose the right to Scuba and retain the right to free spear.

Rob

 

[dave]

To extend foul hooking to cover also cover any form of “spiking & spearing” at low tide and spear fishing whether using aqualung or not.

Rob

Which part of the above line are you having problems understanding?

Where in any of the responses does anyone apart from you make any diferentiation between types of spearing?

Do existing fisheries regulations consider whether any other form of fishing is "sporting" or not? Examples please!

I am not trying to pick a fight here, just trying to work out if we are reading the same thing

cheers
dave
Spearguns by Spearo uk ltd finest supplier of speargun, monofins, speargun and freediving equipment

 

[Robbo66]

Rob

Which part of the above line are you having problems understanding?

Where in any of the responses does anyone apart from you make any diferentiation between types of spearing?

Do existing fisheries regulations consider whether any other form of fishing is "sporting" or not? Examples please!

I am not trying to pick a fight here, just trying to work out if we are reading the same thing

cheers
dave
Spearguns by Spearo uk ltd finest supplier of speargun, monofins, speargun and freediving equipment

Dave,

I promise you we’re reading the same thing.

1) My previous post deals with this point, as they have flagged a possible difference in the two methods in a LATER response. You have taken the quote from the bylaw, and ignored the response that they may limit the possible ban to Scuba.

2) See below for example of a recognition of differentiation by the committee, again as stated in previous postings:

""One possibility would be to exclude snorkel techniques, although the enforceability of this would require consideration.(cf sub aqua used )"".

3) No because banning has never been raised as a possibility in the UK as far as I’m aware. Again, they have in France and Italy etc., and subsequently banned it not just for being unsporting, but to try and limit catch volume.


I’m also not attempting to be belligerent for the sake of it, but please read the responses and posts otherwise I’ll simply be repeating myself as above.

We are on the same side here…..they are trying to ban the sport….what part of that don’t you understand ?

Cheers

Rob

 

[Adrian]

Could you guys bring forth an argument based on "scientific evidence" in local areas to prove the point that responsible spearfishing is ecologically sound and therefore there is really no technical base for it to be banned?

Use any available statistics to show the huge differences in the numbers of fish caught by netters, anglers and spearfishing. And if there are no statistics there really can't be any legal ground or justification for banning spearfishing. Based on what, the opinion of a few uninformed persons with obvious interests? Otherwise it could lead to a complete suppresion of individual's rights based on interests rather than the law. Presented correctly this might interest the press - a David against Goliath story.

 

[ihab]

Never received my order from you...it's a bit of a shame don't you think

No real surprises there! Sea Fisheries Committees are largely composed of commercial fishing interests, so anything that restricts recreational fishing is always going to be popular, its like having a Planning Committee composed of property developers:head
Although they have the powers to bring it any byelaws they like, as a public committee they must justify their decisions, I would be very interested to hear their reasons for banning spearfishing. I would suggest making a request under the freedom of information act
cheers
dave
Spearguns by Spearo uk ltd finest supplier of speargun, monofins, speargun and freediving equipment

 

[Robbo66]

Could you guys bring forth an argument based on "scientific evidence" in local areas to prove the point that responsible spearfishing is ecologically sound and therefore there is really no technical base for it to be banned?

Use any available statistics to show the huge differences in the numbers of fish caught by netters, anglers and spearfishing. And if there are no statistics there really can't be any legal ground or justification for banning spearfishing. Based on what, the opinion of a few uninformed persons with obvious interests? Otherwise it could lead to a complete suppresion of individual's rights based on interests rather than the law. Presented correctly this might interest the press - a David against Goliath story.

Adrian,
exactly....we need to educate the committee before this becomes set in stone and spear fishing is included almost as a 'throw away' addition to the pending legislation re spiking.

 

[fcallagy]

I,m not a spearo so tell me to bog off if you want but am interested in the sport. A recent interview online with Terry Mass brought forward an interesting statement on the whole catch and release issue. He argued that spearos obviously operate on a release and catch system and are far better informed about what they are about to catch ie they don,t catch it and then let it go again having possibly harmed it etc. They can make choices on what to catch with regard to sizes and species which rods or nests can't.To see the destruction caused by some commercial fishermen there are some good articles in National geographic this month focusing in particular on the bycatch. Its truly shocking the amount and varied species that are caught, die and are then flung over the side as the fishermans quotas are already filled.
I can't think of a more ecologically sound way to fish than to spear as long as the spearo uses some sense.

 

[dave]

Rob,
Banning spearing has come up many, many times before in the UK, in a number of different fisheries districts, it has always been defeated, most times with the help of the BSAC, as the largest user group it would affect are scuba divers who want to stab the odd flatty. The BSAC has NOT stated that they support a ban, as that would require a motion at the AGM. The fact that an unnamed BSAC member the officer spoke to supports a ban means nothing.
Scuba spearing was banned in most Mediteranean countries as it was causing depletion of grouper stocks. What stocks are being depleted in the UK by spearos of any sort?
The most important thing at this stage is to find out why the byelaw is being proposed, ie what problem is it thought to solve? and what data this is being based on
Even if SWSFC decide to bring in a byelaw, there are still numerous options to fight it which will end up costing SWSFC a lot of money. This is why it is important to write and ask politely for more info, without making suggestions for a partial ban
I am still waiting for a reply from SWSFC to the above questions (I already recieved the reply previously quoted which doesn't really say anything useful)
I have a number of possible angles of attack for this issue, but it is always best not to reveal your plans to the enemy!

cheers
dave
Spearguns by Spearo uk ltd finest supplier of speargun, monofins, speargun and freediving equipment

 

[Robbo66]

Rob,
Banning spearing has come up many, many times before in the UK, in a number of different fisheries districts, it has always been defeated, most times with the help of the BSAC, as the largest user group it would affect are scuba divers who want to stab the odd flatty. The BSAC has NOT stated that they support a ban, as that would require a motion at the AGM. The fact that an unnamed BSAC member the officer spoke to supports a ban means nothing.
Scuba spearing was banned in most Mediteranean countries as it was causing depletion of grouper stocks. What stocks are being depleted in the UK by spearos of any sort?
The most important thing at this stage is to find out why the byelaw is being proposed, ie what problem is it thought to solve? and what data this is being based on
Even if SWSFC decide to bring in a byelaw, there are still numerous options to fight it which will end up costing SWSFC a lot of money. This is why it is important to write and ask politely for more info, without making suggestions for a partial ban
I am still waiting for a reply from SWSFC to the above questions (I already recieved the reply previously quoted which doesn't really say anything useful)
I have a number of possible angles of attack for this issue, but it is always best not to reveal your plans to the enemy!

cheers
dave
Spearguns by Spearo uk ltd finest supplier of speargun, monofins, speargun and freediving equipment

Dave,

He states he has taken informal soundings from BSAC, doesn’t state who from and how many opinions he has secured. I don’t think we should just assume it was one solitary member. My experience in over 12 years of practicing is that the majority DON’T actually like the Spearo brigade stating the ‘look don’t touch’ argument. I’d also suggest that the number spearing flatties is far less then the majority. I’d also appreciate some details on how and where a similar motion was defeated, and how BSAC were involved. More info the better, as we can glean relevant/pertinent information and apply to strengthen our position.
Re Europe, Scuba Spearing wasn’t banned simply on Grouper decimation though it was major factor, along with being a piece of p**s according to my colleagues across the channel. I suggest we direct your question relating to species/stock depletion to the SWSFC as I’m sure they would be unable to answer without evidence to confirm either way.
Again the byelaw is being proposed for the reasons outlined previously. Andy has copied me his letter enquiring as to why etc.
I simply believe we will need to prepare ourselves for a partial capitulation to ban scuba, though would certainly not suggest this or compromise ourselves from the outset. However to ensure the overall future of the sport, it remains a fair and small price to pay IMO.

Please forward any info you have on how/why and by whom the previous cases were successfully won, and the relevant committee’s defeated.

Cheers,

Rob

 

[Andy Davies]

This is the response I received from Phil Coates:

Thank you for your comments and for further leads. I have made contact with the secretary of the representative body as a consequence.

The byl draft does not arise as a consequence of the foul hooking one per se. That, by small change of wording, would become the delivery mechanism. A revised text for byl 43.
The rationale is that from a proposal that the Committee ban flounder spiking (forking at low tide) the comparisons with other "spiking" are clear.

You raise other matters eg such as differentiation between snorkel and subaqua & competition v pleasure.
No doubt "aficionados" of the snorkelling technique will wish to differentiate between the selectivity of the technique cf spiking of flatfish at short range in muddy waters.

The matter is at a very early stage. I would be happy to bring all aspects to the Committees attention.
One possibility would be to exclude snorkel techniques, although the enforceability of this would require consideration.(cf sub aqua used ). Also, careful consideration of the grounds for such differentaition. I expect the Minister to say that a spiked fish does not care how its captor breathes, and any argument would have to major on the "scale" argument you mention.

The procedures are that any byelaw drafted would have wider advertisement for receipt of formal comment on which there would be further dialogue.
Fishing News & local papers are the normal medium - the extent of which is determined by the Minister.

I have consulted with a legal friend of mine who advised that we really need to know the reasons why they want to ban flounder spiking at low tide. We can they see if these factors are applicable to spearfishing. I personally do not agree that spearfishing should be considered as one and the same as flounder spiking on a muddy shore at low tide. I have requested this information from Phil Coates this morning but have not received a reply yet.

 

[dave]

Again the byelaw is being proposed for the reasons outlined previously. Andy has copied me his letter enquiring as to why etc.


Rob

You mean the letter earlier in the thread? I have recieved it as well, I cant find any actual reasons or aims for banning spearing in it, just that they see it as an extension of banning flounder spiking. No reasons are given for why banning flounder spiking is seen as a good idea, I am waiting for a response from SWSFC to my further questions

cheers
dave
www.spearo.co.uk

 

[Andy Davies]

Thanks for your interest and help Dave. I am keen to keep all debate on this matter in a courteous and professional manner which it has been to date. In this way, we can keep the dialogue constructive where it is useful for Phil Coates to consult with us and worth his while in responding to our questions and observations.

Andy