Potential speafishing ban in South Wales

[Robbo66]

You mean the letter earlier in the thread? I have recieved it as well, I cant find any actual reasons or aims for banning spearing in it, just that they see it as an extension of banning flounder spiking. No reasons are given for why banning flounder spiking is seen as a good idea, I am waiting for a response from SWSFC to my further questions

cheers
dave
www.spearo.co.uk

Dave,

“It comes about as a consequence of the existing byl preventing foul hooking being proposed for extension to flounder spiking. Members thought all such spiking should be prohibited”.

The above is their reasoning stating that all such spiking should be prohibited on assumption perhaps that too many have been taken etc ??, it does not, as you say, give actual reason/fact for inclusion of flounder spiking into foul hooking legislation.
Incidentally, they are referring to land based spiking, ie walking up an estuary at low tide on foot and spiking flounder.
How on earth they have made a correlation with spearfishing remains beyond belief.

Again, any info on previous cases remains vital, so please forward as requested.

Rob

 

[paddythefrog]

Scuba spearing was banned in most Mediteranean countries as it was causing depletion of grouper stocks. What stocks are being depleted in the UK by spearos of any sort?

flatties, lobbies, scallops, the 7Kg bass living in deep dark holes? rofl

 

[azapa]

I am very sorry for you guys that these things are even being debated: look at this glaring contradiction:

An easement possibly relax 200m length of set net (possibly also drift net) to 400m possibly only 1000m offshore of the Astronomic low water mark as shown on the latest Admiralty chart.


To extend foul hooking to cover also cover any form of “spiking & spearing” at low tide and spear fishing whether using aqualung or not.

So: you can have a 400m long drift net killing everything that swims into it, but can't spear a few flaties???

What a joke. It's obviously just a (well performed) lobby by the commercial fishermen.

I hope you fight and win this one. Good luck.

 

[Pastor]

No reasons are given for why banning flounder spiking is seen as a good idea, I am waiting for a response from SWSFC to my further questions

When did you send your questions Dave? Will you keep us informed of the reply?

If we are going to do anything about this we need to do it as a whole. This will eventually affect us all.

 

[dave]

Dave,

“It comes about as a consequence of the existing byl preventing foul hooking being proposed for extension to flounder spiking. Members thought all such spiking should be prohibited”.


Rob

That is exactly my point, where in the sentence above is a REASON for banning spiking? Where does it explain the aims and objectives of such a ban? You may think you know the reason, but the simple fact is you dont, you are simply guessing
DO NOT suggest reasons to SWSFC committee why they may want to ban spiking, or suggest compromises, you are only giving them ammunition. At this stage the most important thing is to ascertain their reasoning, without giving them any information that they may later be able to use.

There are 2 things everyone can do;

Send a polite email asking for the reasoning behind the proposed byelaw, there is no need to defend spearfishing in this email, simply ask for information

If you live in the SWSFC district, write to your MP, expressing your concerns about the proposed byelaw

cheers
dave
Spearguns by Spearo uk ltd finest supplier of speargun, monofins, speargun and freediving equipment

 

[Robbo66]

That is exactly my point, where in the sentence above is a REASON for banning spiking? Where does it explain the aims and objectives of such a ban? You may think you know the reason, but the simple fact is you dont, you are simply guessing
DO NOT suggest reasons to SWSFC committee why they may want to ban spiking, or suggest compromises, you are only giving them ammunition. At this stage the most important thing is to ascertain their reasoning, without giving them any information that they may later be able to use.

There are 2 things everyone can do;

Send a polite email asking for the reasoning behind the proposed byelaw, there is no need to defend spearfishing in this email, simply ask for information

If you live in the SWSFC district, write to your MP, expressing your concerns about the proposed byelaw

cheers
dave
Spearguns by Spearo uk ltd finest supplier of speargun, monofins, speargun and freediving equipment

Dave,

As I stated in my last post:

“ it does not, as you say, give actual reason/fact for inclusion of flounder spiking into foul hooking legislation”.

Did you simply just not read that ? I am actually agreeing with you!.

We are trying to ascertain their reasoning through polite correspondence….it has been done and we are awaiting a response……as I’ve stated.
Why on earth might you think that I or anyone would want to suggest a reason to ban spearfishing from the outset?

I think we should PRIVATELY be prepared to compromise on the non commercial Scuba aspect IF this would prevent a total ban….. as it has in the EU…how can this be made more clear ?

Rob

 

[Andy Davies]

Robbo, not as private as you might think as I have given Phil Coates a link to this thread!!!!!

 

[Steve Parker]

Hello everyone , I'm Steve from Cardiff and a new member.
Some thoughts on this topic,
This news concerns me greatly and I've been reading all your comments with interest
I have been diving in Pembrokshire for 10 years and Spearoing the same region for the last 3. Ive married a local girl, I spend alot of my free time in Pembrokshire and I keep a Semi-commercial dive boat in the area and have built good relationships with the local fishing and marine community. Small town life ensures that locals learn quickly what you are up to and so far I've had nothing but friendly curiosity from people when Ive been spearfishing, last Year I spoke to local fisheries guy who had no problem with Spearfishing and was keen to keep me informed with local bylaws.
It might help if we looked at some wider issues in the area as to me they all seem connected.
Tourism is on the up in the region at the moment and this is causing the usual conficts of interests that you get in areas of natural beauty.
The other day we were tied up in Solva and a local fisherman was initialy hostile as we were Divers, Alegedly a group of scuba divers, clubs etc are trying to make the islands in the pembrokshire national park a no take zone obviously he sees this as a threat to his livelyhood as he pots near one of the Islands. He is proberly not the only one. Once he saw we were not that type of diver he was once again really friendly and interested in what we were doing.
My take on this is that industry in west wales is on the change. the traditional ones are phasing out and tourism and outdoor recreation with a "Green" focus is the future. The council down there are having to juggle this and are facing the usual conflicts of interest faced in all National Park areas in the UK.
Being polite and respectfully educating them, like I do in Fishguard, could be the way forward before the locals get the wrong end of the stick from some fundimental crusaders,who are proberly not from the the local community, with the media in tow.
People in Pembrokshire want people to come to their county and do their thing. They dont mind people taking a few fish with a rod, gun or what ever as long as they respect the place and the locals and don't take the P**s, ruining local livelyhoods.
It could be in local interest to allow spearfishing as it could bring in income to local businesses, pubs, accommodation, boats etc If we spearos sell ourselves well and play on our Green Credentials.
We are the only fishing community who can take the fish we want with out damaging any others and without leaving any dangerous gear around. I have found that your average joe doesn't Know this and still thinks that putting back a S**t scared tiddler who has just had a big hook in its mouth isn't cruel!! and not depleating fish stocks.
Environmentally harmonious activities appeal to an Environmentally savy council who could be seen as hipicritical if they allowed angling and not spearoing.
Its how we could present our arguement I think.
Regards, Steve parker.
ps; those articals in this months National Geographic make interesting reading.

 

[Robbo66]

We’ve received a response from Mr Coates, stating that the proposal was raised from the floor and not by officers.
Basically, a member (sea angler) wanted to limit flounder spiking. Reasons given, were : Conservation (flounders decline), barbarism, not selective, hobbies like that are archaic.
Mr Coates goes on to explain that the No Foul Hooking bylaw has been inexistence from 1980, probably not based on environmental argument and he is unsure of the exact reasons. The Environment Agency were keen to introduce the bylaw to reduce the take of Salmon & Sea Trout by Foul Hooking.

A proposal to prevent flounder spiking was promoted and from the floor suggested that it apply to spearing, and that it be advertised to ascertain support or otherwise. When questioned as to whether members felt that it ought to apply to snorkel as well as scuba technique, the response was in the affirmative ......"why not?" !!!!!

Mr Coates goes on to say that they intend (possibly) to advertise the proposal and expect views and opinions from both flounder spiker’s and spearo’s, defending their pastime.

He states that the more views & considered opinion the better informed the Committee will be when they next discuss the topic.(initially 15 June, but in more detail probably 28 September.)

Finally, Mr Coates sought the views of the Technical Manager of BSAC (Alistair Reynolds), with the following result,

"BSAC does not support the sport of spear-fishing either by divers using scuba or by snorkel divers. As such we would fully support your proposals to 'prevent all spear fishing in the District'
Please add our organisation's name to your list of supporters for the proposal"

(Dave, see above !)

So, how do we move forward ?
We could try and educate the committee and relevant minister into why we consider spearfishing less environmentally damaging than angling, selective take, no competitions etc, however I feel that on reflection and reading the response from Mr Coates, the minister may well simply not be interested.
He is interested in votes and the views of the local community.
It’s the old 5 most important words in business scenario – ‘What’s In It For Me’.
Apologies for being cynical, but I believe that with a minority and misunderstood sport such as spearfishing, it could easily be banned ‘off the cuff’ as is shown above by the committees response for inclusion……”Why Not” !!

In my opinion we have to target the potential loss of tourism to the area from extending a ban to spearfishing.
I know very well the proprietors of several hotels, rental cottage companies, restaurants, boat businesses etc we regularly use when bringing Spearo’s over from France etc, that would not be too pleased to lose such income. I spear with several other guys frequently year round in Pemb’s, again spending in the area.
We need to work with the local community at a grass roots level and, as Steve states, we need to put across that it remains in the local interest to allow spearfishing to continue to assist the further development of tourism in the area.

Rob

 

[KWM]

I too have received this e-mail, although I do not think it was sent to me because I am the current secretary Of the BSA. For the information of all I will be formulating a reply (input welcome from all) to represent the view of the BSA and those that spearfish in general. I informed Glen ( chariman of BSA) on Wednesday. As Dave has said we have faced two potential bans in recent years both have been abandoned by the relevent SFC's after they have received input from both us (the BSA and local Spearo's) but also strangely enough DEFRA. Although I shall be writing on behalf of the BSA we want to defend the right of ALL to continue to enjoy the sport they love.

If people do want to contact me please PM me

Regards Kev

 

[tecdave]

Hi Guys,

If there is anything that I can do just let me know, where do we send our our response? There is a lot of work done by Dr Adam Smith in NSW Australia on the importance of Spearfishing to tourism etc, I will try and dig it out and contact him direct. I wrote my MSc thesis on the environmental impact of recreational bait collection and am in contact with a number of environmental economists who may be able to help with the 'value to the area' case.
We have to fight this as if it starts in South Wales who knows where it may stop.

Dave

 

[Andy Davies]

I have contacted Mike Bradshaw, President of BSA, who is being very supportive and has experience in dealing with Sea fisheries Committees before.

There are only a handful of local spearfishermen in Pembrokeshire and a few tourist spearos so I don't think the loss of tourist revenue is going to be a good argument. Better angle is that there are so few doing it that the impact on fish stocks is miniscule.

Steve - for the moment, this issue hasn't arisen from a connection with wider issues. It was simply an afterthought as an extension to the proposal to ban flounder spiking.

I am a local resident in Marloes which is adjacent to the Skomer MNR and wholeheartedly support the establishment of a no-take area within the reserve. We need much more fisheries management whereby we have closed areas to protect breeding stocks and areas which are allowed to lie fallow for certain periods. The current "tragedy of the commons" situation whereby fishermen try to take as much as they can in competition with each other is a recipe for disaster. We also need an increase in minimum catch sizes to allow species to reproduce for a number of years before we catch them.

The members (as opposed to the officers) of the SWSFC are largely commercial fishermen who I would not describe as being "environmentally savvy!

Dave has pointed out that if BSAC support this proposal that it would logically be illegal for a diver to stab a flatfish!!!

 

[Robbo66]

Having taken a reader on this last night with several people experiencing the same possible bans in their relevant pastimes, all were won on the merits of a depletion of tourism to the area.
They lobbied local businesses etc for support and were fronted by their relevant club, much the same as Kevin has suggested.
If there are so few doing it, they will apply the same argument as to that of the flattie spikers…..ban it anyway as there’s only a few of them, again in an off the cuff manner.
If there is a perceived threat to local revenue due to reduced tourism in a renowned area such as Pembrokeshire as a result of such a ban, the Minister will take far more notice I can assure you.
We need to lobby, utilizing the BSA as a recognized body, dedicated to controlling the sport through detailed rules & regulations that in turn promotes environmental responsibility to all who participate.
There is a balance to be drawn here, and as Kevin has had experience defeating similar bylaw proposals twice before, we should listen carefully to his recommendations.

 

[KWM]

Spearing fishing ban, South Wales update.

Hello, an update for all.
The BSA has formed a group of three (myself Kev, Dave Thomasson and Morgan Lidstone) to make representation to the SWSFC. Our contact so far with the chief fisheries officer has been productive and I believe a good working relationship has been formed. Because the SWSFC have received a proposal to ban all spearing of fish in the area there is a process that has to be followed whilst the SWSFC investigate the validity of such action. As part of this process the BSA will formulate a response to this, which will set out our objections to such a ban. We are in the very early stages of this process and I will attempt to give regular updates as to what is going on.

Whilst the BSA would seek to represent all Spearos in the UK it must be understood that the response given will be that of the BSA, and we cannot attempt to state the views of all. For those out there that are not members of the BSA I would like to stress the importance that has been placed upon us as the only national organisation to represent spearfishing in the UK, if you are not a member of the BSA consider joining. I and others do feel that in the near future there will be further challenges to the validity of spearfishing in the UK, if as many spearos as possible can be represented by the BSA if will give us a much louder say when decision are made.

Regards Kev

 

[paulrossiter]

To the BSA "Three",

I would like to say on behalf of all spearo's, thank you for your efforts and commitment regarding you challenging this proposal to ban spearfishing in South Wales. I am not sure if I have the legal intellect to assist you directly but if you need any additional support please contact me.

I have dived all along the South Wales coast over the last several years and have found that it has incredible fishing opportunities. Secondly, I have never had any hassle or negative comment from members of the public or government officials while fishing.

Once again thank you all for your time and effort regarding this issue.

Paul

 

[Mr. X]

...There are only a handful of local spearfishermen in Pembrokeshire and a few tourist spearos so I don't think the loss of tourist revenue is going to be a good argument. Better angle is that there are so few doing it that the impact on fish stocks is miniscule.

Steve - for the moment, this issue hasn't arisen from a connection with wider issues. It was simply an afterthought as an extension to the proposal to ban flounder spiking.

...
Dave has pointed out that if BSAC support this proposal that it would logically be illegal for a diver to stab a flatfish!!!

I was confused by the last comment. If they were thinking of banning flounder spiking, how is that different from a diver stabbing a flat fish? It strikes me as bizarre to have one lot of fishermen trying to ban the activities of any other lot of fishermen, unless there is a significant impact on the environment/fish stocks. It might create a precedent we will all live to regret.

It would be easy to under estimate the tourist impact. I take part in a number of activities and take all my holidays in the UK, but almost all are planned around spearfishing. While weather conditions are often not favourable for spearing, I am happy to get the kayak, rod, climbing, walking or cycling gear out when conditions are bad. However, I wouldn't be there if spearing were banned (mainly because there are other areas and partly on principle). Nor would my family. Sometimes we travel with others, who also would not be there. We pay for accomodation, food, drink, tackle, petrol, parking, guides, beach stuff, postcards, use the local post office, cashpoint/bank, etc. - the brochures I get from the Welsh tourist board make me think they value that custom (if they don't, somebody else will).

BTW I am surprised at all the references to France, Italy and the EU as precedents. Jeez we've become a sad, sad nation. Spearing is far less popular here, the water is colder, cloudier, rougher & we tend not to kill an eat anything & everything, as they often do on the continent. Tank spearing must already be almost non-existant in the UK but I don't see that as justification to kill a minority activity. Talk about wasting tax payers money & red tape...

I don't see any need to ban flounder spiking if the only justification is because the spiker is standing up in two foot of water!

If you really want to protect fish stocks, trawlers are currently allowed to operate a quarter mile from the shore -- that is within easy swimming distance. How about keeping all trawlers more than 2 miles from shore (still swimming distance)? [Just because getting such an EU-wide law like that through would be hard doesn't mean we should make silly token bans that effect half a dozen people and 2 dozen fish a year, that is in any case environmentally sustainable].

 

[eric aqua]

It time for the Spearos of the UK (and further afield if you like) to let SWSFC know what you think of one persons submission to the Committee that the spearing of fish be banned in the South Wales Area.

As part of the process of consultation that the SWSFC has to undertake formal objections have to be counted and reported. What you need to do is to e-mail the committee at SWSFC@aol.com (please copy your e-mail to kevinmannall@hotmail.co.uk so that I have a record of the objections sent.)

VERY IMPORTANT. What you must do is write simply and plainly that YOU OBJECT to the introduction of a by-law banning the spearing of fish. If you don’t say you object it might not be counted. You do not have to justify your objection but you might want to add for example that,

a) Spearfishing is very selective and is ecologically sound
b) The BSA size limit is already set at 40cm for Bass
c) Spearing is only carried out for the divers own needs (pot or freezer)
d) There is no current scientific evidence to suggest that the spearing of fish has had any negative impact on fish stocks.

Regards Kev.

By the way I am using eric's e-mail because amongst other things I have just moved house.

 

[KWM]

I am now back on line please send your objections in.

It time for the Spearos of the UK (and further afield if you like) to let SWSFC know what you think of one persons submission to the Committee that the spearing of fish be banned in the South Wales Area.

As part of the process of consultation that the SWSFC has to undertake formal objections have to be counted and reported. What you need to do is to e-mail the committee at SWSFC@aol.com (please copy your e-mail to kevinmannall@hotmail.co.uk so that I have a record of the objections sent.)

VERY IMPORTANT. What you must do is write simply and plainly that YOU OBJECT to the introduction of a by-law banning the spearing of fish. If you don’t say you object it might not be counted. You do not have to justify your objection but you might want to add for example that,

a) Spearfishing is very selective and is ecologically sound
b) The BSA size limit is already set at 40cm for Bass
c) Spearing is only carried out for the divers own needs (pot or freezer)
d) There is no current scientific evidence to suggest that the spearing of fish has had any negative impact on fish stocks.

Regards Kev.

 

[KWM]

Thanks to everybody who has submitted an official objection, but we still need more. So if you have not emailed SWSFC yet please do so. It is your sport that a single individual has proposed to ban, an individual who has no knowledge of what we do. So let the SWSFC ( SWSFC@aol.com) know how you feel. dont forget to copy me in kevinmannall@hotmail.co.uk so that I have a record of all those sent, remember to state that you OBJECT TO THE INTRODUCTION OF A BY-LAW BANNING THE SPEARING OF FISH
thanks Kev.

 

[Huw]

Just a point mate that perhaps you may want to make a new thread just stating in the title that there is an update on the spearing ban, and that now is the time for people to send in their objections.

Perhaps not, but if people use the site like I do, and see a thread that runs on for a while with a serious subject, but no progression but more of a debate, then they are less likely to look at it again. Perhaps i'm wrong, but its just a thought, and after all every email counts right?

Huw.

P.S: I would do it but i don't wanna step on any toes, or do the wrong thing etc.