sled diving within AIDA

[efattah]

The way I see it is this. Imagine this news report:

"Today person X died during a dive in the no-limits category of freediving. Person X died during a training dive. AIDA international is the governing body for this sport. It is unclear whether person X was following the AIDA protocols for this dive, but if not, the AIDA international may face a lawsuit for not properly disseminating and enforcing safety protocols during training dives. This fatality is yet another black mark on this international organization which has repeatedly failed to ensure the safety of people practicing the sport, and numerous fatalities have occurred in recent years. The sport of freediving is becoming known as the most dangerous sport in the world."


The other important point is that no-limits and variable weight are not competition events, and I believe it is not even allowed to have a competition in them. It is quite possible that separate record attempts may be eliminated in the next few years, which would also automatically eliminate non-competition events.

To say that AIDA can create some sort of safety guideline for no-limits, and post it on its website, and expect that every diver in the world will somehow find the site and find the document and read it and follow it -- it insane. It would never happen. AIDA has absolutely NO POWER WHATSOEVER to ensure anyone's safety in these events. Herbert survived his 214m dive because HE BELIEVED he needed to do a decompression stop at 10m in apnea. Musimu did not do that on his 209.6m and suffered severe decompression sickness. The athletes are the ones that cut the edge and figure out what to do or not to do. No abstract paper sitting on a website will change anything.

At Vertical Blue 2011, I suffered mild decompression sickness after a 104m constant weight dive EVEN DESPITE DOING THE O2 DECO PROTOCOL. The conclusion is that for my body (me personally), I need to do a more elaborate decompression, probably starting with 50% O2 at 12m. It is up to me to take care of myself and take the appropriate precautions. Athletes are not even required to do O2 deco after deep dives in CWT, FIM, or CNF, and clearly even doing the O2 deco is not a guarantee to avoid problems.

 

[silkyshark]

My opinion is that AIDA should stop ratifying NLT & VW records. My opinion was divided at the beginning of this thread but now I see it makes sense for the Worlds front for freediving, namely AIDA to leave the stunts to some of the other agencies.
I realise that sled diving will not go away, even I enjoy a VW with a weight belt once in a while but it should definitely not be taught in the AIDA education (VW introduced at AIDA4 & both disciplines explained at AIDA2) and should not be judged by AIDA.

Now I'm off to write to my National AIDA

Thanks Will for bringing up this topic for discussion.

 

[Unclejake]

If it wasn't for the NLTs divers, Freedivers wouldn't have anyone left to consider insane :chatup

 

[Goran Colak]

There are actually many well established sports with exactly that... Off the top of my head land speed car record, maximum speed in skiing, boating, max distance in one hour cycling, they are numerous.

Well you see, skiing has 4 official disciplines plus combination, speed skiing is not one of them and it's not consider to be skiing in the sports way but a stunt and a crazy one. Speed car record... distance boating, all stunts, and has nothing to do with sport of cycling or sailing nither is recognized as a official sports discipline.

Has No limits ever been used to promote Freediving to the general population and has it ever helped increase the number of Freedivers participating? The competition between Mayol and Maiorca as portrayed in the Big Blue is a massive part of our sports success......

Well actually the movie was doing all the promotion, not the sled diving. And like I sad that was a different times, when free diving was not a sport but a individual attempts of supermans who ware doing something that humans are not supposed to do. We need to evolve from that perception if we wan to me a serious sport one day. A lot of sports started like that, but they have evolved and we need to do it to.

Taking your example of swimming, how many world records outside of the Olympic ideal exist? Phelps could go break a world record for swimming the English channel if he wanted. Or a mad random one and it won't affect the perception of swimmers in the Olympics...

Well Dave answered this one exactly how I will answered it

 

[deepRelax]

NLT is actually part of the history of Freediving*, just like as VWT is part of the history of freediving, and this is not under discussion, or is it?
[...]

*Is it history? Yes, it is
Americo Santarelli Brazil -44 - 1960
Enzo Maiorca Italy -45 Siracusa 1960
Americo Santarelli Brazil -46 - 1960
Enzo Maiorca Italy -54 - 1965
Teteke Williams Polynesia -59 - 1965
Jacques Mayol France -60 - 1966
Enzo Maiorca Italy -62 - 1966

[...]

Pipin Ferreras Cuba -127 - 1994
Pipin Ferreras Cuba -128 - 1995
Umberto Pelizzari Italy -131 - 1996
Gianluca Genoni Italy -135 - 1998
Leferme 137 France -1999
Pelizzari 150 Italy -1999
Leferme 154 France -2001
Leferme 171 -2004
Nitsch 214 - 2007

Don't forget the first and only man going under -200m without any compensation apparatus !
Patrick Musimu : -209 m, June 2005

 

[Kars]

In regard to NLT safety, a simple AIDA rule could be that NLT without independent backup system, automated inflatable vest should be limited to the max depth the athlete has done in the non mechanical disciplines. For dives exceeding this depth a independent functioning capable(able to bring diver up with minimum of X speed) automated safety vest is needed - 2nd backup. For dives exceeding 120%(?) of the divers non mechanical abilities a 3rd recovery system is required.

A vest would have saved Audry, as well as a sturdy winch system.


In regard to NLT being a just a daredevil stunt.

I don't think Herbert would agree.
People define things as a stunt because they fail to identify the skill required to deal with all aspects and risks involved, it's a mystery to them.
It's also a deteriorative term, an appeal to emotion.

The sport aspects in NLT I currently recognise are:

- Designing equipment.
- Organisation.
- Training the body.
- Training the mind to function cool and rationally under these extreme pressures.


Gosh, I wish Musimu, Herbert, Tanya, Umberto, Pipin would chime in and share their Knowledge, Experience and Wisdom!!

 

[fcallagy]

This is a good discussion to have and I am sure it will have an impact as we are such a small community worldwide.
The sled is a great training tool for equalisation. I hope others can experience it, to resonable depths its just great fun.
NL dives will continue in some way shape or form as it has the title of the deepest even if we as a community recognise cwt and cwnf as "the real record".
I would like to see AIDA move away from NL and VWT records now but put out a protocol for sled diving up to a certain depth limit for training purposes ie 50/60m. This then poses the question is it the depth we have an issue with or the use of equipment?

 

[fcallagy]

While a back up vest might be an addition will a vest really achieve enough bouancy at a great depth say 150m or deeper, I dont think a vest would generate enough lift but could be wrong. I prefer Herberts cone idea.

 

[trux]

The FRV is rated to 45m, but I know that there is an important safety margin, and it can be also equipped with a bigger cylinder. I think it would certainly help in Adel's case. And I think even at ~200m dives it could save a life - even if the lift would not be sufficient to bring the diver fast enough to the surface, it would be still much better than if the diver sank to the abyss. The diver could be recovered easier, quicker, and faster by safety divers or other means. Of course, it just needs to be one part of a system with multiple safety redundance.

 

[Unclejake]

The vest suggestion is a good one, and could be applied to all depth dives (regardless of descent method) but sooner or later someone is going to descend relying on the vest to assist their ascent.

I guess one could counter by making the dive 'ineligible' by surfacing with an inflated vest, but as pointed out previously, AIDA has no power over me so I shall do as I please. There is also the concern of drag and expense.

Luckily I am scared of deep water so am personally unlikely to ever try a 'stunt', but someone will push themselves and rely on equipment to surface alive

 

[Jouskari]

Lots of points made, but the one that I´m missing is that in 3 of the 4 NLT deaths, nobody actually knows what exactly happened that resulted in loss of the diver. This fact actually bothers me the most. To control any flow of events you first need to know all the contributing factors. People has died and we as a community still don´t know anything new.

Also, all the sleds(+rigs) I have seen have been greatly under engineered, without very little thought put to entaglement prevention, back-up lift system, safetydiver procedures etc.. One of these is actually a WR sled. Therefore I wouldn´t say that the dischipline of NLT in itself is dangerous. Only the records and especially the training for them is basically done with unsafe equipment and at too great risk (attempting records etc.). One could then argue that record attempts should not be validated by AIDA because it´s bad publicity. My personal opininon is though that this would be turning the back to an inconvinient matter instead of dealing with it. What will we then do when the first death in FIM or CWT occurs? Yes, the risk seems to be more controlled according to the numbers, but due to the elements involved, I´m pretty certain that there will eventually be a death in CWT some day as we progress closer to the human limit and statistical treshold.

What I would like to see, instead of a proposal for banning record attempts to better public view of our sport, are the following:

- Rigorous development and testing of a "safe" standardizied, low friction, low profile lan-yard or similar system.

- Complete and On-line visibility of the competition ropes at all time. This should be a standard requirement for all competitions and record attempts.

- Recording of Sonar profile. (Sonar should already be mandatory).

- Secondary back-up lift system to counter ballast (under suit vest, remotly launched FLOF, tec. divers etc.) mandatory to all competitions and record attempts.

Still, this wont stop training deaths from occuring, but atleast the competition/records arrangements could be considered a little safer and when something would occour we would actually have the data to review and improve (compared to black box on airplanes etc.).

- J

 

[vali]

i'm a nobody in freediving, but i love this sport
i also love spearfishing and i also am i good fisherman...
perhaps my words don't even mean eanything to you, wich are so talented and with so much achievments...
but i beg you to do think at the following...:

there are hunters who shoot to kill with normal guns [that makes them to aproach from the wilde beast more and that means skils]
there are others who shoot with snipe-guns [less skils are required]
there are fisherman who can catch a fish with a simple rod and line...others use somne complicated electonic devices behind the rod, to do that...
anybody is free to use whatever means necesarry and legal...
but who are the real winner here?
just think...
***********************
remember the problem issued here....
this is not the banning of NLT, only the relation AIDA - NLT...

 

[StefanoMizzi]

I'm nobody as well, and I don't have a clear opinion on this, but: aren't NLT and VWT intrinsically different? In VWT if something goes wrong in the equipment, it means that your dive is aborted and you have to swim a shorter distance back...

Stefano

 

[rddk]

I think that banning NL and VWT is not a good idea, the main difference between this disciplines to others in freediving is the saefty, obviusly in NL and VWT saefty is a lot more complicated but not impossible, having a strict protocol will help a lot, any sport withouth saefty is a suicide.
I can't remember the name but someone has remebered all the deaths that every year we have by spearfishing, all of them are caused by bad saefty cuz few spearfisher goes with a capable buddy and operates with saefty methods.
Someone has talked about audrey mestre i and he said that with a vest she would be alive, remember that she had 3 saefty divers for 160+ metres that is a suicide, freediving could be dangerous even in a 30 cm pool during a static, cuz if you do not have a buddy and blacked out you will die for sure.
Another thing that i disagree is that NL and VWT are considered as a stunt freedive where count only good equalization and money than nothing else count, if things were so easy why very few people goes for those type of records? I recognize really good ability to a freediver that can equalize so deep and is physically and psicologically ready to attempt a big dept.

 

[Mullins]

Another thing that i disagree is that NL and VWT are considered as a stunt freedive where count only good equalization and money than nothing else count, if things were so easy why very few people goes for those type of records?

Because few people care enough about it to spend the money and expose themselves to the risk. There are plenty of divers who would be capable of doing big NLT dives. Do you think any of the top CWT divers would have much difficulty equalising head-up on a sled, or enduring a static 5:00 dive?

 

[efattah]

Another thing that i disagree is that NL and VWT are considered as a stunt freedive where count only good equalization and money than nothing else count, if things were so easy why very few people goes for those type of records?

No-limits is a piece of cake from an athletic standpoint. Only money and logistics are difficult.

Even Herbert himself said, his 214m no-limits dive 'didn't even feel like a 2 minute static....'

Chest flexibility and equalizing and the main issues, which are easy to train.

 

[efattah]

As an additional comment, in 2002 I calculated that no-limits would start to become difficult from an athletic standpoint once the depth reaches 700 metres.

 

[Kars]

No-limits is a piece of cake from an athletic standpoint. Only money and logistics are difficult.

Even Herbert himself said, his 214m no-limits dive 'didn't even feel like a 2 minute static....'

Chest flexibility and equalizing and the main issues, which are easy to train.

I don't think that's the whole story.

I remember you stating something like using a hydrofoil type monofin for a 100m CWT full lungs dive was not in the cards because of the severe narcosis endured at that 100m depth preventing good/fine motor coordination.
But then again I'm waiting for the deep people to confirm this.

So please do not underestimate, or dismiss Herbert's and other's performances out of hand, without a comprehensive reasoning.

 

[Will]

Is it not about money & logistics? If you chucked $10 million at each discipline what might you see?

NLT: a vertical shaft dug in the desert and filled with water, with a high speed elevator that runs on a rail inside the shaft. The elevator is flooded, but almost entirely sealed off, so that it can shoot down at 30 knots without communicating water resistance to the passenger inside. Basically it just dunks them like a teabag to a preset depth. In an emergency the elevator can be sealed completely and rapidly filled with a heliox mix, before bringing the passenger up.
The passenger has tubes propping open their Eustachians, or flooded sinuses, or whatever, so speed isn't an issue, and does a round trip to 1km in 3 minutes.

CWT: more or less the same as it is now. You might get some pretty slick wetsuit and monofin designs adding a few meters, but the onus is still on the athlete's shoulders to train their body and convince their mind to get to a depth and back.

 

[efattah]

I remember you stating something like using a hydrofoil type monofin for a 100m CWT full lungs dive was not in the cards because of the severe narcosis endured at that 100m depth preventing good/fine motor coordination.

That's not what I said! I said that using a hydrofoil monofin for 100m+ would require more training to make the technique automatic. I've already used the Orca enough to be confident with it in narcosis.

Herbert says that his narcosis on 110m+ constant weight dives is FAR WORSE than the narcosis he got on 214m NLT. Just ask Herbert, he says that the 214m was easy in every respect except for logistics and money.