sled diving within AIDA

[Kars]

Will I do very much respect your most impressive world class, World Record performances. Indeed they are much more broad and athletic.

I simply wanted to communicate that dealing with the various narcosis, controlling the mind is something that is not to be taken for granted.

Why can we appreciate extreme mind-control during static, but not during NLT?

 

[Kars]

That's not what I said! I said that using a hydrofoil monofin for 100m+ would require more training to make the technique automatic. I've already used the Orca enough to be confident with it in narcosis.

Herbert says that his narcosis on 110m+ constant weight dives is FAR WORSE than the narcosis he got on 214m NLT. Just ask Herbert, he says that the 214m was easy in every respect except for logistics and money.

Eric I'm sorry I failed to recall your comment correctly. Can I still say that it's more difficult to think and act at depth under the various narcosis effects?

Your insight as how Herbert perceived his 214 NLT dive as compared to his 110m+ is very interesting. - thanks! It sounds to me that either Herbert had things really nicely sorted out and was in great shape, and or his perception was indeed influenced by the narcosis.
Patrick Musimu had a much more spiritual recalling of his 200+ dive. As well as others before if I recall correctly

Oh and as for naming the factors for having a successful NLT dive, I would add safety to the logistics and money.

Just as a thought experiment, consider NLT and VWT are just as safe as the self propelled disciplines, would we have the same discussion?


ps. I hope everyone realises I'm writing these posts - to the best of my ability - only to help US reason things through so we may find solutions to our needs.

Love, Courage and Water,

Kars

 

[apneaboy]

As an additional comment, in 2002 I calculated that no-limits would start to become difficult from an athletic standpoint once the depth reaches 700 metres.

Eric.

Do you think AIDA should stop recognising NL world records.

 

[efattah]

I think a diver has a spiritual experience during the dive when he (or she) thinks that he's doing something extremely difficult or impossible. So in my mind it is the diver's perception of the task, which affects the experience of the dive.

In Musimu's case, dozens of doctors were telling him 200m was impossible. Similarly with Maiorca, Mayol, and even Pelizzari and Pipin. But Musimu chose to put importance on the doctor's claims, which is why after his 209m he was sure to brag back to the doctors that they were wrong (never mind that he got severe DCS after the dive and ended up in the recompression chamber-- which in my mind is a disqualification).

By now, as the doctor's 'limit' has been destroyed over and over, modern divers such as Herbert or Will probably just ignore what any doctors say about what is possible or not. For people like them, I would guess that they fully believe the task is possible, and in some cases (such as Herbert's 214m), even easy.

Many doctors still insist that the limit in constant weight is still 60m. I certainly ignore them...

I think amongst recent dives, Carlos Coste's 102m CWT (1st over 100m), and Will Trubridge's 100m/101m CNF, were dives worthy of *actual* spiritual experience.

 

[pehtran]

Why the majority of freedivers is suddenly against NL and some are even putting down the achievements that were praised to the sky not so long ago. I remember that Herberts and Mussimus dives (and NL dives in general) raised the biggest interest and awe for that matter. It is perhaps not the most demanding but surely the most thought provoking and exciting discipline in my book.

 

[vali]

Why the majority of freedivers is suddenly against NL and some are even putting down the achievements that were praised to the sky not so long ago. I remember that Herberts and Mussimus dives (and NL dives in general) raised the biggest interest and awe for that matter. It is perhaps not the most demanding but surely the most thought provoking and exciting discipline in my book.

i don't think that the majority of freedivers are suddenly against NL
as i remember, william didn't said "are you against NL or not?" , but "do you think AIDA must dissasociate with NL dicipline, or not?"
those are two different questions...
i guess we all grow-up with the big blue after all and we are not necessarely dissasociate the NL from our personal goals or training, or thaughts...

 

[pehtran]

Yes, that was the initial question but latter comments have little to do with that question don't you think....

 

[Mullins]

I think it's largely because (until now) we/they were trying to be polite about it. At least in public. Most of the comments seem to be very much on the topic of whether or not AIDA should recognise NLT dives. It's essentially a discussion about sporting values (plus the safety aspect), so naturally enough you'll get all kinds of value judgements coming out.

 

[Unclejake]

I will go off-topic for a moment to suggest that the top CWT Freedivers must enter the glide phase a bit more relaxed in the knowledge that at least a few humans have returned, alive, from pressures far greater than each CWT diver is about to endure

Sleds are choice (auw).

 

[deepRelax]

No-limits is a piece of cake from an athletic standpoint. Only money and logistics are difficult.

Even Herbert himself said, his 214m no-limits dive 'didn't even feel like a 2 minute static....'

Chest flexibility and equalizing and the main issues, which are easy to train.

Equalizing easy to train for -200m dives ? I doubt it, since even Herbert uses an artificial apparatus for reaching such depths.

 

[trux]

Will contacted me already earlier with the proposal, and I was not very enthusiastic for it. Even after hearing all the arguments, I am still not sure whether distancing from NLT/VWT would make any good to freediving or to AIDA. However, we discuss it now on the board of AIDA CZ, and may ask our members to express their opinions.

The main arguments against NLT/VWT is that it is a hazardous activity, and that it damages the image of AIDA and of the freediving in general. That's certainly very true, but everyone is aware that it will not stop the stunts anyway, and that the general public knows nothing about AIDA, and will continue to associate it with freediving and with AIDA anyway. Besides it, sleds are and will continue to be used for training, and the risk of an accident is in fact much much greater there than at a well prepared record attempt.

So I am persuaded that distancing from NLT/VWT is useless and rather just alibistic. I do not think it will save any lives, and I do not think it will help improving the image of freediving or of AIDA. In contrary, keeping an eye on NLT/VWT records, may help preventing some accidents, and AIDA/freediving may profit from the attractiveness of the stunts for the general public and for sponsors.

This is just my personal opinion, and not the one of AIDA Czech Republic.

PS: personally I dislike sled dives, and try avoiding them if I can

 

[fcallagy]

can someone that knows Herbert et all ask them to join in on this discussion. The obvious voices missing here are the ones that actually do NL record attempts. I dont think an AIDA decision will sway them to continue or not but it would be interetsing to hear their opinion on it. I sent a msg to Patrick on FB.

 

[deepRelax]

I think a diver has a spiritual experience during the dive when he (or she) thinks that he's doing something extremely difficult or impossible.
[...]
But Musimu chose to put importance on the doctor's claims, which is why after his 209m he was sure to brag back to the doctors that they were wrong (never mind that he got severe DCS after the dive and ended up in the recompression chamber-- which in my mind is a disqualification).
[...]

What ?
In AIDA rules you need to stay clear for 30s after your protocol, that's to short for having DCS.
You could die or get a massive DCS afterwards, you'll still have an "official" performance ...
And let me remind you, there is no qualification/disqualification in Musimu's performance since no federation was invited.
He was the first human being to go bellow 200 m and came back, and is still the only one who went there on his own physiological capabilities, show some repect.
:rcard

 

[Jouskari]

Here´s a thought that just popped up in my head...

To my experience it´s usually a low budget National record -attempt and the short training period for that, that qualifies as the most dangerous form of NLT / VWT diving. At the moment some national records actually are so shallow that you can attempt them and succeed with very little preparation, hence "getting your name in the history books". e.g. the race to be the first to 100 m is evident in most successful NLT dives.

So perhaps the way forward would be that AIDA don´t recognise any National/Regional records in NLT/VWT anymore? And as Eric already stated record attempts may soon be dropped completely, thus eliminating NLT/VWT in the procedure as well. This would still leave those aiming to break world records and the ones training NLT as part of their CWT preparation. The World Records however are so deep at the moment that it takes some thought and preparation to do it so that very few will even try. The CWT training is also usually adapted to your current CWT depth or done head down for proper simulation thus making it "harder".

I belive already this half-way change would stop the unneccessary race for national records in these dischiplines and result in a drop in "deep" NLT attempts.

 

[trux]

To my experience it´s usually a low budget National record -attempt and the short training period for that, that qualifies as the most dangerous form of NLT / VWT diving.

I think that plain training sled dives (with no goal to set any record) are as dangerous as the rest. Probably more, because the sleds and the safety are often dubious. The accident of Adel would have easily happen even if no NLT NR existed as long as any kind of non-constant diving is not banned altogether.

So perhaps the way forward would be that AIDA don´t recognise any National/Regional records in NLT/VWT anymore?

AIDA International does not govern any national records at all. Not even in the competition disciplines. NR's are fully under the authority of the national federations, so each of them is free to set their own rules and limitations.

 

[Unclejake]

^ Great idea Jouskari, but I don't know that a world record attempt is realistically going to be any better funded or planned than a NR attempt. I guess any given discipline either needs to be in or out of the rule books too.

Perhaps Will and co. have included NLT and VWT in this proposal in the expectation that AIDA bodies outside of New Zealand would meet half way and only NLT would not be ratified in the future, but the two disciplines seem quite different to this outsider.

NLT relies on a mechanical advantage to return you to the surface. VWT can be done with a large rock that you let go when you are scared.



P.S. I find the debate stimulating, and am grateful that it was started. I have a significant interest in sleds, but consider NLTs terrifying

 

[Mullins]

You know that I would never quelch Mr Sleddy deterioratively.

 

[Jouskari]

I think that plain training sled dives (with no goal to set any record) are as dangerous as the rest. Probably more, because the sleds and the safety are often dubious. The accident of Adel would have easily happen even if no NLT NR existed as long as any kind of non-constant diving is not banned altogether.

AIDA International does not govern any national records at all. Not even in the competition disciplines. NR's are fully under the authority of the national federations, so each of them is free to set their own rules and limitations.

That is actually true and AIDA cannot force AIDA Nationals to do so without a long and teady process, if even possible.

...so as a half-way solution, atleast all AIDA nationals interested could stop ratifying National/Regional NLT/VWT -records. That´s an easy decission for anyone to do and only takes one meeting. I still belive that one reason for many NLT dives is the goal to achivie a national record.


- J

 

[IUSM]

Dear free-divers,
I can’t write well in english but I have very clear ideas about the choices that the sport of freediving should do to become an official sport.
Take my advice, as my post only for the experience and the work we are doing in Italy with FIPSAS, and which we were introduced in CMAS.
I do not pretend to convince you, but what I write in my profession is supported by the Italian Sports Olympic Federations (swimming, finswimming, triathlon, athletics, cycling,..).
I examined only the disciplines of muscle power alone without any help from ropes or mechanical systems, so I consider also FIM a great exercise but not a sport official.

CONTINENTAL AND WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS
INDOOR
-WINTER Championships in short course 25 meters
-SUMMER Championshipsin long course 50 meters
These are the more important disciplines:.
DNF, DYN, SPEED and RELAYS (100 mt. and 4 x 100 mts.), ENDURANCE (8 x 50 mt., 16 x 50 mt.) and STA.


OUTDOOR
Disciplines : CNF, CWT, DYNLinear, DNFLinear, JB (for athletes not suitable for high depth), SKA (in pairs and/or relay with four athlets)


For an eventual Olympic program, if there ever will be?
Ideally, should be the introduction of WATER OLYMPIC GAMES , like the WINTER OLYMPICS, of snow and ice.
In this case, the priority should be to disciplines without fins, so as to allow the participation of many countries, then followed with a monofins to the other disciplines, but not the STA.

 

[trux]

Hello IUSM. Could you enlighten why you are promoting Skandalopetra while rejecting NLT/VWT? Isn't Skandalopetra just a rudimentary version of No Limits?