Training diary for 81m CWNF

[turtle]

cheers will for giving everyone such a fascinating insight into what goes into such a complex and demanding record attempt. I reckon you're moving the whole sport up a few notches with what you're doing and above all the way that you're going about it.

fred

 

[fpernett]

I'm sorry for the way things come out, but as you said, there is positive things. The most important is to find out what the problem was, and finally you know what you are capable of.
Do you have any video of the dive?.

Why don't you try the next attempt in Deans blue hole?

 

[ctswm711]

Will,
Is there a particular reason you chose Sharm for your record attempt?
It seems from reading your diary that the local food (salt as well) and some of the circumstances that arose were not very conducive to record setting.
Any thoughts about giving it a go somewhere else?
-Mark

 

[ApneaBlue]

Damn, that sucks, dude...I can completely understand how you feel...Most people don't really know what goes into a record attempt...training, daily sacrifices, losing girlfriends because they think you love the pool more than them :\....And most of all, the finances. Boat rentals, equipment rentals, gasses, air tickets to fly in the safety divers you trust your life with, hotel costs, transportation costs, and the list goes on and on. So I can feel it for you when this happens...

After looking at the way you dive compared to the way I do, not that either of us are right or wrong, the only thing I would have changed is your descent and ascent speed. In and out as fast as you can. (just do it right, seb?)

Will, hang in there man, we can only learn from our mistakes and get better.

 

[Billextreme]

Lee,

There is a big difference between 65m dive and 81m dive in this discipline.
Will could easy make Formula One speed on a 65m dive. But when it comes to 80m+, you have to be extremly balanced, at least until your pb is 5-6m better or more than the target. The best is to save as much energy you can for the way up. Most of the times this incl CWT and FIM as well. (ie. start to fall asap into the dive)

regards
B

 

[Will]

I don't know if I mentioned in my diary that the food at the place we were staying wasn't very nutritious, and while I was there I developed an inability to taste the salt content of food, possibly because I had constantly salty saliva (so salty that seawater tasted fresh). Now that I have returned to Italy nothing tastes as it did when I left. When I had Walkers chips in London I could detect that there was some kind of powder on the chips, but couldn't taste any salt. In fact if I place raw salt or raw white sugar on my tongue they both taste like sand. Olfactory sense isn't impaired, demonstrated by the fact that I can taste flavours (when we eat the tongue tastes salt, sweet, bitter, sour, and the nose 'tastes' the flavours: orange, coffee, avocado, parsley), but gustatory sense seems to be 0-5%. Could this be related to prolonged dietary imbalance, or is it more likely some kind of neurological disorder? I'll buy dinner for anyone who gives me advice that fixes the problem. It is disconcerting, and extremely frustrating.
Will.

 

[turtle]

Rare causes of taste problems:

damage to the nerves between face and brain
stroke
brain tumours
tumours elsewhere in the body
liver disease
extreme vitamin deficiencies
some medicines and drugs can cause changes in taste
depression and other psychological problems can cause alteration in taste
heavy metal poisoning

possibly spirulina related? "Contamination of blue-green algae with heavy metals is possible, especially in species that are often harvested in uncontrolled settings (for example, Anabaena, Aphanizomenon and Microcystis species)."
(these metals are specifically lead, mercury & cadnium i believe)

- http://www.intelihealth.com/IH/ihtIH/WSIHW000/8513/31402/347011.html?d=dmtContent

I also remember reading up something about large doses of spirulina possibly causing certain vitamin deficencies. If i can find it again I'll post that link here.

Are you certain the olfactory senses are ok? the mind can be amazingly suggestive about what it sees/tastes sometimes.

It's an odd one indeed. Hope someone (frank?) can help.

f

 

[ApneaBlue]

Lee,

There is a big difference between 65m dive and 81m dive in this discipline.
Will could easy make Formula One speed on a 65m dive. But when it comes to 80m+, you have to be extremly balanced, at least until your pb is 5-6m better or more than the target. The best is to save as much energy you can for the way up. Most of the times this incl CWT and FIM as well. (ie. start to fall asap into the dive)

regards
B

B,
I stand corrected, as I really wouldn't know anything about this discipline.

Will,
Again mam, I'm sorry you didin't get it because as much as you have been diving and training you deserved to get it especially since you were right there....Stick with it dude. it will all fall into place.

Take it easy.
Dave

 

[sebastien murat]

I would have to disagree with you Bill: I would contend that the optimal strategy is to save as much energy (i.e., O2) on the way down, since only a very few divers have actually BOd from lack of muscle power (i.e., anaerobic energy) during ascent. Descent and ascent are energetically quite different. An extreme dive, relatively speaking, must, by definition, i.e., if it is 100%, result in close to propulsive muscular failure and loss of consciousness upon surfacing if it is balanced....but that's not what's happening in many of these types of dives.

Seb
Mallorca

 

[sebastien murat]

PS: a fast ascent when diving on full lungs predisposes to blackouts by the way. The greater the absolute increase in lung volume and the faster the ascent, especially in the last 10 m the greater the risk; this does not apply to E-dives, however.


Seb

 

[Walrus]

I'm not sure if Bill was saying to save energy before the ascent or during ?

I don't think there is an ideal speed to suit everyone, Will said he experimented by slowing down a little and it seemed to improve his dive.

David there are now a lot more freedivers with experience in no-fins so you shouldn't think of yourself as the only expert, a lot has happened in the AIDA world now that it's becoming a more common discipline. Apart from Martin's 80m World Record there are 3 national records that stand higher the FREE record. This year Herbert Nitsch dived 70m, William Winram from Canada dived 66m and myself also 66m. These were all done in competition having to use lanyards, getting a countdown and having a tough surface protocol that has to be done in 15 seconds. I don't claim to be anywhere near Will or Martin's level but having done no-fins dives to 70m I know that a fast ascent does not work for me. I have tried different things and what suits me is using a longer glide, ie pause betweem strokes, my dive speed is much slower then Will. Maybe this isn't ideal, maybe it is I'm not sure - but it worked for me before my last competition so had to go with it. I haven't trained much for no-fins constant in the last couple of years so it was easier for me to fall back on what works for me in dynamic.

Will knows what he is doing demonstrated on the amazing dives he has done in training and I'm sure he will pull it off at his next record attempt. My philosophy is there isn't an ideal aproach/technique/speed for everyone, you have to be willing to try out some different things, experiment a little, use your brain and see what works for you.

Cheers,
Wal

 

[Walrus]

Just another quick example I can think with refence to ideal speeds is if you look at the top dynamic performances with a monofin. A few years back it was Peter P with very good finswimming technique doing 200m in around 2 minutes, so around 30 sec per 50m. So it was thought that this was an ideal speed for a monofin. Now look at the women's world record set this year, Natalia did 200m in around 3 minutes ?
Natalia is from a high level competive finswimming background, she should have no problems to go 30 sec per 50m, so why doesn't she ?
There are many more top level freedivers using a different aproach/ slower speed to dynamics with a monofin and getting some very good results.

 

[ApneaBlue]

I'm not sure if Bill was saying to save energy before the ascent or during ?

I don't think there is an ideal speed to suit everyone, Will said he experimented by slowing down a little and it seemed to improve his dive.

David there are now a lot more freedivers with experience in no-fins so you shouldn't think of yourself as the only expert, a lot has happened in the AIDA world now that it's becoming a more common discipline. Apart from Martin's 80m World Record there are 3 national records that stand higher the FREE record. This year Herbert Nitsch dived 70m, William Winram from Canada dived 66m and myself also 66m. These were all done in competition having to use lanyards, getting a countdown and having a tough surface protocol that has to be done in 15 seconds. I don't claim to be anywhere near Will or Martin's level but having done no-fins dives to 70m I know that a fast ascent does not work for me. I have tried different things and what suits me is using a longer glide, ie pause betweem strokes, my dive speed is much slower then Will. Maybe this isn't ideal, maybe it is I'm not sure - but it worked for me before my last competition so had to go with it. I haven't trained much for no-fins constant in the last couple of years so it was easier for me to fall back on what works for me in dynamic.

Will knows what he is doing demonstrated on the amazing dives he has done in training and I'm sure he will pull it off at his next record attempt. My philosophy is there isn't an ideal aproach/technique/speed for everyone, you have to be willing to try out some different things, experiment a little, use your brain and see what works for you.

Cheers,
Wal

Wowzers....So basically what I get from all of this is...

When I say Will could have done a faster dive, "B & Wally" automatically thinks I mean expending energy like a squid having a ceasure and that I can't tell the difference between 65 and 80m.

Is there a difference between 65 and 80m...Yes...It's called 15m...A few years ago there was a big jump from 50 - 65m...Was there a difference? yes. 15m...You guys seeing a trend here? A few years from now (or even sooner) you will have to say..."There's a big difference between 90 and 100m!"...Not saying I will be the fruity one doing this craziness but history will just repeat itself..People will learn more, get stronger and keep pushing the envelope...

Then Wally truns around and basically calls me a "Self proclaimed, know it all expert who's been living under a rock for the last 3 years."

I can just feel the love and warmth from you guys :inlove

So I come to show my support for Will and in turn get attitude...I think someone may have woke up with sand in their vagina Y'all need to chill and quit over analizing everything and start looking at the things that are important here....Why Will didn't make it and what we think he can do to come out fresh the next time.

When I say Will could go faster I didn't mean he should expend more energy and increase strokes...If you have seen my first dive you would think I had just learned to swim the day before my first record. There's this thing I have been working on the last year and half called streamlining and technique...It's quite amazing actually, during this time a wonderful swim coach made me realise that when I put all the elements together correctly I can cover the same distance at a much faster pace without expending any additional energy. So this is what I mean by fast... Better technique = faster dive with less energy. We can all do little things to shave off fractions of a second here and there....Then you take these little things and multiply it by the amout of strokes you are doing and the next thing you know, all these little fractions add up 8-10 seconds shorter dive time on deeper unassisted dives..I've seen it and it opened my eyes. Now, since you guys have all the experince and diving so deep under tough conditions you will know that on an unassisted dive where you are pushing your limit, even a 1-3 seconds can mean the difference between a successful dive and an unsuccessful one...

(Will, please don't take this as me saying you have bad technique..The way things are going here you may end up interpriting it that way...But all of us have wiggle room for improvement)

I had watched Will's video of the previous attemt and damn it if he wasn't close to getting it...I almost feel cheated for him not getting it...He made it to the surface and then blacked out....All I could think of was, "Man, if he would just have arrived 5 seconds sooner he would have had it!" This is why I was almost willing to bet my left nut that Will would have made a successful dive this time.

Will, sorry for hijacking your thread but I felt compelled to retun the love and warmth I recieved from some of the beloved deeperblue members. Again, please don't take this as anthing other than me showing my support for you...I truly wish you would have kicked some serious @$$ this time around and I am sure we will be hearing more from you....With all that said, i'm done here....You guys stay safe and have fun.

 

[pat fish]

Amazing thread! And David - good to have you back here.
Pat

 

[Walrus]

Hi David,
sorry to cause any offence, sometimes I think I'm only writing facts when I am actually putting my foot into my mouth. Please don't take me too seriously... I don't
This is Deeper Blue, everyone has an opinion here and no one ever wins a prize for being right. :t

I totally agree with you about improving technique, I understand what you mean now about saving a few seconds on a dive. Although (this is only my opinion !) you could equally say that with improved technique you can do the dive in the same time but have burned up less oxygen on the way therefore have more in reserve on the surface.

P.S. Your last post had me laughing about the squid having a ceasure and sandy places.. rofl rofl

Wal

 

[sebastien murat]

At what (energetic) price does striving for a better technique come at?
Active streamlining and optimizing stroke mechanics to decrease the energetic cost per unit of time, at least during the descent and ascent of F-dives comes at a hefty price; you might look good doing it but it deosn't generate the sought after end result. If on the other hand, one can generate downward speed at little cost through reduced buoyancy rather than by powering (work/time) then the results materilaize instantly.

On the issue of blackouts: don't be fooled!
a BO at -3m, for example, is not a case of being just 2-3 seconds from success; it is in fact a world away from it, since it is absolute pressure differentials and rates that determine success or failure. That being the case, a BO at -3m probably requires at least an extra 10-15" of hypoxic reserve margin, saying nothing of a BO at 7-10m, where the pressure differential is humungous. So, getting there even 5" earlier would still be a world away. Nevertheless, Will's been there before, which goes to show the difference that exists between a "bad day" and a "good one."

Seb

PS: I think we know exactly where you're coming from David and I fail to see how anyone could take offence. I hope to see you back in action soon!

 

[Billextreme]

Again, how ever you calculate when it comes how to use your energy, you will gain most if you could reach the bottom/target with as less use of muscles/energy as possible. Will, Herbert, Martin, Carlos and many more are doing the right thing, just swim until you’re that negative so you fall by yourself. If you can hold your breath and can take the pressure this is the only thing that will open up the real depth below you. Of course you have to know how to equalize, but if you just fall without any big movement all your focus could be on this and keep your extension tube open. And if you practice “mouth fill” this will of course also steal some concentration from everything else. So yes, 15m could be a lot if you can’t perform some nice equalization, especially if your have spent a lot of energy just to swim down there.

Use the falling part to 100% or as close as possible, and it’s more important to stay hydronamic on the way up than on the way down. If you’re in too big hurry in your descent you have to start train little bit smarter. Be cool, relax and focus on your way down and then change into “swimming mode” after the turn.

If you have time, please have a good look at: http://www.apneamania.com/code/training_sel.asp?catID=7&tipID=8

There you find one of maybe 10 different recipes to make a nice dive in CWT.

have fun
/B

 

[wolleneugebauer]

There you find one of maybe 10 different recipes to make a nice dive in CWT.
/B

I am very surprised at your (or natalias) experience. I made completely different experiences:
I feel bad in area "7". I have a lactic acid shock(?) between ?34m and ?26m alltimes! I heard this experience from all my friends too.
If you can overcome this painful area verry fast, you will have an easy time still the surface (and a smile in your face). If I can not made this area as soon as possible (if the lactid pains brake my movement) I will feel bad after the 25m-mark further and I will have problems with my consciousness (near LMCs still bad BOs....)

If I made the dive clear, the next muskelpain is comming 5-10 sec after surfacing. (Is it a lactid shock too or a Nitrogen-problem?)

In CW I have the pain in my legs only. In CNF I have this pain in my whole body.

!!!The maximum depth is not decisive for the marks of "area 7". Important is that the dive is more than 95% from the personal best in this disciplin. (in my case is it in: FIM more than 75m, CNF more than 60m, CW more than 65m).

@bill: can you put your profile-jpg ( http://www.apneamania.com/scripts/ex91mcwt.jpg ) in this topic?

 

[wolleneugebauer]

And I think this wolleneugebauer have to train more physique, so he can take some more pain before chicken out.
Kim

thanks for your intelligent pieces of advice...

 

[jome]

I assume that was just a flamebait, but maybe you should check who "this wolleneugebauer" is and what kind of CNF dives he has done before offering such constructive advise