Thanks Will, I just spend half an hour coughing water out of my nose, fun times... 160mL, not that much of a difference! Although for a mouthfill, the volume of air would be bigger, as it is much more pressurised - I use a whooping sound followed by repeated sharp "grouper call" type sounds to fill it till it feels like my cheeks will split or my throat explode ;-) maybe that's why I get a different result with the manoeuvre you describe?
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very deep dives without mouthfil?
- Thread starterdannybuoy
- Start date
Thread Status: Hello
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With my head tilted back my mouthfill volume is between 470ml and 660ml. Do keep in mind that I compress the air by about 10-20% during the fill. So my mouthfill volume is actually less than 470-660ml, but the 'compressed' volume ends up at 470-660ml.
Are you saying you can put a full pint of beer in your mouth without swallowing?? You're my hero.
I don't use that much force to mouthfill, just tilt head back open the jaw and get as much in, then top up down to 60m or so. So start with a "single moutfill" at 30-40m then top it up a few times before I get to RV. Worked for me down to 121m head down no probs.
Who has this marcus guy trained that's diving over 100m ?! :head
Cheers,
Wal
Who has this marcus guy trained that's diving over 100m ?! :head
Cheers,
Wal
Whaaat?!!?! That would put Dizzy Gillespie to shame! Even with compression, the internal volume must be 400-550mL, which is 3-4 times what mine is! How did you measure this: emptying your mouthfill into a recipient underwater?
I don't dive as deep as some of you,my pb is -75m,but i do lot of exercises , FRC or full exhale dives to train the EQ .
I use only the tonge to suck air from the lungs.Just create an air espace beetwen the palate and tongue agains the teeths .When i compress this space the air goes to the checks.So i cam pump them full inflate in 4 seconds without using the abs,moving the neck,the jaw or tension the body.
Is possible to do it in land while breathing.
I use mouthfill at 30m,but in the way down i control the volume of the air in the checks just pumping with the tonge from time to time.
Then just open the tubes,and with this movements and air pressure,by checks or tongue i equalize.
Sometimes i used to swallow the air going down,and with this technique was easy to refill the checks even a great depths.
So the limit is the chest flexibility past the RV,as the tongue is very powerfull.
Rafa
I use only the tonge to suck air from the lungs.Just create an air espace beetwen the palate and tongue agains the teeths .When i compress this space the air goes to the checks.So i cam pump them full inflate in 4 seconds without using the abs,moving the neck,the jaw or tension the body.
Is possible to do it in land while breathing.
I use mouthfill at 30m,but in the way down i control the volume of the air in the checks just pumping with the tonge from time to time.
Then just open the tubes,and with this movements and air pressure,by checks or tongue i equalize.
Sometimes i used to swallow the air going down,and with this technique was easy to refill the checks even a great depths.
So the limit is the chest flexibility past the RV,as the tongue is very powerfull.
Rafa
I was wondering the same thing, Walter.
His website notanx.com boasts:
"The results speak for themselves :
Eight world records and dozens of National Records in all recognised disciplines and the worlds biggest Freedive club. The NoTanx Team continue widen participation with dedicated seminars, courses and media friendly interactive displays all over the world. "
hmmm? who, what, where?
and how can you possibly describe deep equalization techniques if you have not done them yourself? I don't get it.
Carla
Back to the mouth fill ,repeatedly compressing air in the cheeks tends to stretch them and gives jowls like a bloodhound in ones middle years especially for those who have achieved a 3lt mouthfill !!!!
I tried measuring my mouthfill two ways:
1. Using a spirometer (this is what gives 0.47L to 0.66L)
2. Filling my mouth with water. If I fill my mouth with 150ml of water, and then hold it there, and perform the air mouthfill, the airspace is so enormous that the water (sloshing around in my mouth) takes up less than 1/3rd of the total airspace.
It is not possible to pour 470-660ml of water into your mouth, because this volume is largely comprised of compressed air in the throat and sinuses. So filling your mouth with water is not an effective method.
When I dove 71.9m FRC at Vertical Blue 2009, I was starting with such a small volume of lung air (4.5L) that I did the mouthfill at 15-16m (I could not fill any deeper due to the small lung volume). I did not do any 'topping up' of the mouthfill after that. By 72m my mouth was still full of air. This shows that a single mouthfill at 15-16m can get you to way over 100m -- not surprising since a surface mouthfill can get you to 35-40m.
A surface mouthfill done at 1ATM gets you to 35-40m (4.5 to 5.0 ATM). So, you can multiply the mouthfill depth/pressure by that factor and calculate the limit depth.
Filling at 16m (2.6ATM), and using a conservative 35m surface limit (x 4.5), gives 11.7ATM, or 107m, which matches quite closely with the FRC dive I did to 72m (in terms of how deep I felt the remaining air could have taken me).
With packing I get the same size mouthfill but at 35m (4.5 ATM, diving with 10.5L of lung air instead of 4.5L). Multiply again by 4.5 gives 20.25 ATM, or 192.5m as a limiting depth for constant weight. This is again not surprising since at 104m my mouth was still full of air, and at that depth the volume changes extremely gradually. And this all still does not include the effect of training the eardrum flexibility like Herbert does. That would add many more meters by 'riding the ears.'
1. Using a spirometer (this is what gives 0.47L to 0.66L)
2. Filling my mouth with water. If I fill my mouth with 150ml of water, and then hold it there, and perform the air mouthfill, the airspace is so enormous that the water (sloshing around in my mouth) takes up less than 1/3rd of the total airspace.
It is not possible to pour 470-660ml of water into your mouth, because this volume is largely comprised of compressed air in the throat and sinuses. So filling your mouth with water is not an effective method.
When I dove 71.9m FRC at Vertical Blue 2009, I was starting with such a small volume of lung air (4.5L) that I did the mouthfill at 15-16m (I could not fill any deeper due to the small lung volume). I did not do any 'topping up' of the mouthfill after that. By 72m my mouth was still full of air. This shows that a single mouthfill at 15-16m can get you to way over 100m -- not surprising since a surface mouthfill can get you to 35-40m.
A surface mouthfill done at 1ATM gets you to 35-40m (4.5 to 5.0 ATM). So, you can multiply the mouthfill depth/pressure by that factor and calculate the limit depth.
Filling at 16m (2.6ATM), and using a conservative 35m surface limit (x 4.5), gives 11.7ATM, or 107m, which matches quite closely with the FRC dive I did to 72m (in terms of how deep I felt the remaining air could have taken me).
With packing I get the same size mouthfill but at 35m (4.5 ATM, diving with 10.5L of lung air instead of 4.5L). Multiply again by 4.5 gives 20.25 ATM, or 192.5m as a limiting depth for constant weight. This is again not surprising since at 104m my mouth was still full of air, and at that depth the volume changes extremely gradually. And this all still does not include the effect of training the eardrum flexibility like Herbert does. That would add many more meters by 'riding the ears.'
Mine gets me to about 13m, so there's work to be done.. I never even considered the idea of pressurizing the mouthfill!
Mine gets me from the surface to 25m, if I don't ride my ears. I'm not sure I could pressurise my mouthfill at all - when it's full, my lips can only just hold the air in. I remember we did max packing for a medical study so that they could measure how much pressure the air was under and it was hardly pressurised past 1ATM at all, even when we were straining to hold it. And that was with out throats, which are much stronger. Almost all the volume came from chest expansion.
100m FRC Eric - is that theoretical or have you been fooling around with VWT? I did a 53m dive in Raro I was pretty happy with, mouthfilling at about 5m. But 100m is crazy.
Wal, I think Marcus may be using the term 'coach' in the AIDA competition sense. I.e. if you hold somebody's safety sausage prior to a dive and tell them to breathe afterwards, you 'coached' them for that dive. I remember he coached Herbert's 111m dive, for example.
100m FRC Eric - is that theoretical or have you been fooling around with VWT? I did a 53m dive in Raro I was pretty happy with, mouthfilling at about 5m. But 100m is crazy.
Wal, I think Marcus may be using the term 'coach' in the AIDA competition sense. I.e. if you hold somebody's safety sausage prior to a dive and tell them to breathe afterwards, you 'coached' them for that dive. I remember he coached Herbert's 111m dive, for example.
if you hold some bodys safety sausage, isnt there another term for this act .
i think freddie mercury would of made a great coach
i think freddie mercury would of made a great coach
To obtain maximum pressurization in the mouthfill, the nose must be severely clamped (i.e. paradisia, trygon's clip or hand pinched, not a swim nose clip), and then you also need to pinch the lips of your mouth together as well [USING YOUR FINGERS], otherwise the air will leak out of your lips. After descending some meters you can release the lip pinch because the air will compress.
Exhaling into a high precision pressure gauge, I can generate 1.9 PSI over ambient (1.13 ATM), equivalent to an air compression of 13% in my mouth/sinuses.
The maximum mouth pressure I ever heard of was equivalent of 2m of water (1.2ATM) with Seb Murat.
Exhaling into a high precision pressure gauge, I can generate 1.9 PSI over ambient (1.13 ATM), equivalent to an air compression of 13% in my mouth/sinuses.
The maximum mouth pressure I ever heard of was equivalent of 2m of water (1.2ATM) with Seb Murat.
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I think that, to preserve the integrity of freediving, we should in future draw a distinction between real coaching and "sausage-holding". Eric invented the mouthfill, which is possibly the single most important technique in deep freediving. Now this phrase can be my contribution to the sport.
If you look at my 104m speed profile below, you see the speed lost due to the mouthfill maneuver:
Attachments
Eric just a couple of quick questions for the benefit of us that don't fully understand the maneuver you are referring to:
1. What exactly does it take to get this mouthfil at 35m and why does it result in loss of streamline and speed?
2. Is there no way of extracting/topping up a mouthful in 'smaller' maneuvers so that you have the same end result at 35m (or deeper) instead of a single big one that seems to need a lot of effort?
1. What exactly does it take to get this mouthfil at 35m and why does it result in loss of streamline and speed?
2. Is there no way of extracting/topping up a mouthful in 'smaller' maneuvers so that you have the same end result at 35m (or deeper) instead of a single big one that seems to need a lot of effort?