very deep dives without mouthfil?

[Simos]

Also just a silly question has anyone ever experimented with trying to store air in the stomach (instead of just the lungs).

Have no idea whether this would be easier to extract from the stomach rather than from the lungs at depth or whether indeed it would come out the right end

Joking aside though, it is very straightforward to pack the stomach with air and then bring it up into the mouth at will when dry but have no idea of whether this would help. Or if not for depth, even in static etc.

No idea how much air you could store into the stomach to know if it'll even be worth it but for EQ there's not much air needed...

 

[efattah]

Eric just a couple of quick questions for the benefit of us that don't fully understand the maneuver you are referring to:

1. What exactly does it take to get this mouthfil at 35m and why does it result in loss of streamline and speed?

2. Is there no way of extracting/topping up a mouthful in 'smaller' maneuvers so that you have the same end result at 35m (or deeper) instead of a single big one that seems to need a lot of effort?

1. I bring my knees to my chest, 'cannonball' position, when doing the mouthfill. This breaks the streamline.

2. You could fill earlier (15m), and keep topping up to 35m, but at 35m you would again need to do the hugely intensive maneuver-- so this would just waste energy even more, since the earlier fills are just a waste.

The concept behind the mouthfill is to fill the mouth to the maximum possible extent, at the deepest possible depth that it is still possible to get a maximum possible fill. Getting a maximum fill at the deepest possible depth automatically implies great difficulty = huge effort, because the air volume is so small by then.

If you fill at any other depth, or method, such that the fill is not maximum one, then your ultimate depth limit is automatically reduced. Most people fill their mouth too deep. It seems to them that a pretty big fill at 45m-50m must be better than a huge fill at 25m. But this is not the case. I can get a reasonable mouthfill at 50m. But it will never get me as deep as good mouthfill at 25m.

One advantage of recreational FRC diving in the 35m+ range is that you need to do the mouthfill on every single dive just to make it to the bottom. From 2005 to 2009, I probably did 2,000 FRC dives just for fun, doing the mouthfill every single dive (otherwise I would not be able to reach the bottom). After so many repetitions the whole thing becomes so automatic you don't even need to think about it anymore.

 

[Mullins]

Most people fill their mouth too deep. It seems to them that a pretty big fill at 45m-50m must be better than a huge fill at 25m. But this is not the case.

Agree completely. I found this out, at my expense, at VB. For various reasons (diving light, slightly cold, unfamiliar mono) I was doing my mouthfill too late. Because it was reasonably large and because I was able to top it up down to 60-70m it felt like it should take me a long way; but it was running out by 100m. Doing a bigger, shallower mouthfill takes me way deeper.

 

[tcrusson]

2. You could fill earlier (15m), and keep topping up to 35m, but at 35m you would again need to do the hugely intensive maneuver-- so this would just waste energy even more, since the earlier fills are just a waste.

It's probably due to inadequate technique, but I find I can't fill to the max using a single mouthfill - basically I do a big whooping sound, fill as much as I can, equalise by pressurising the cheeks, then do 3 grouper calls to "pack" air in my mouth. All happens shallower than 30m. On FRC, the "grouper calls" make the difference between going to 25m or 35m from the surface.
Eric, have you tried using water as part of the process, to flood the sinuses and save some air?

 

[efattah]

It's probably due to inadequate technique, but I find I can't fill to the max using a single mouthfill - basically I do a big whooping sound, fill as much as I can, equalise by pressurising the cheeks, then do 3 grouper calls to "pack" air in my mouth. All happens shallower than 30m. On FRC, the "grouper calls" make the difference between going to 25m or 35m from the surface.
Eric, have you tried using water as part of the process, to flood the sinuses and save some air?

There are various ways of combining dry mouthfill with water/wet techniques. However most involve significant risks which is why I haven't published them. But yes, you can get even deeper that way. However I do have a rule that for wet techniques, straight sea water should not be allowed to enter the eustachian tubes, both for purposes of infection, and also because it creates intense pain. So any wet techniques must avoid that.

However, the dry mouthfill works so well and so deep that for most people, there is no reason to use anything else. And, also it may seem complicated to some people, the dry mouthfill is actually way simpler than the combo techniques.

 

[aharon solomons]

Jay, will you be my coach? :inlove

Dave, I find the idea of Marcus holding Herbert's sausage quite disturbing. Infact I heard he even wanted to charge for the priviledge.

:naughty

 

[azapa]

As a beginner mouthfill diver, some points that may be of interest to those at a similiar stage. In this years VB I competed, but barely bettered my PB of two years ago as a safety diver, but:

1. doing a single mouthfill at 20m and using it badly 'till it didn't work any more got me to 52m head down. the HUGE difference for me was NO CHEST or trachea pain/squeeze. My old dives were pure Frenzel and then reverse pack when that stopped working (about 40m). Those strained reverse packs (for me, with inadequate chest flexibility) would cause small squeezes. On my old PB i felt the chest/trachea pressure for hours after the dive. This time, on my new PB, I really had NO feeling even at depth of strain in that area. Conclusion: Early mouthfill and no reverse packs is very good squeeze prevention

2. My challenge now is not the mouth fill itself, its how the hell to get that air into the ears with huge gopher cheeks. I can not do a tongue piston (Frenzel) with epiglottis shut of course, with such a large air space in my cheeks. I seem to manage only one EQ which I try to drag out as long as possible (10 seconds??) just using cheek pressure, then as cheek volume reduces, I (unfortunately) loose some air back to the lungs, and manage to do a tongue piston with the remaining smaller volume.

3. Training empty lungs or FRC is very deceiving and a bad omen in a comp warm up. Some days I could do a forced exhale with no reverse packs and equalize head down to 16m, other days only to 9. Imagine how I felt starting my dives on the 9m warm up days, knowing I was not EQuing well. It is also almost impossible to compare results with other divers with exhale dives, as the reaming volume in each diver will vary so greatly. Another training was to do a full exhale, followed by 4 reverse packs, and hold the 5th (as a mouthfill) and dive. I managed 9m head down, once, like this, but mostly would fail at 7m. It was way too hard on chest/trachea though.

Ramble ramble!

 

[aharon solomons]

A good description of the beggining ,Just one thing , with cheek squeeze only you should be able to equalise instantainously without having to hold it 10 secs, either your tubes are not opening correctly or too much tension in the throat and neck or your tongue is not in the neutral position . Or do you drink a lot of milk ? food alergies typically milk and wheat can cause havoc with the eustacian tubes

 

[azapa]

Thanks Aharon. With full cheeks, once I open the tubes, if I release the pressure, even for a second, they are hard to open again, hence I maintain.

Regarding Milk, I had big problems, (and wasted 10 training days) because of STOPPING drinking Milk. My normal diet always has a little, and abruptly stopping for this comp. dried me up to the point, even in the humid Bahamas, that I would get congested every night. Starting to drink a little milk helped alot.

 

[Bill]

'3. Training empty lungs or FRC'

I'm probably the last diver in the world that should be helping here but.....

One of the best in the world advised me to forget negatives and not pay any attention to the depth achieved with FRCs. Don't know if that was for everyone or just me but it helped a lot.

Another visiting instructor who dives 75 with less than full lungs does it differently than I've ever seen. He inhales fully and lets out a measured quantity so he can start an FRC dive with a known amount of air. Haven't tried that yet.

 

[efattah]

Another visiting instructor who dives 75 with less than full lungs does it differently than I've ever seen. He inhales fully and lets out a measured quantity so he can start an FRC dive with a known amount of air. Haven't tried that yet.

That's always the method I have used for FRC diving... but after time you can take the same air on a partial inhale, or after a full inhale with partial exhale.

 

[tcrusson]

2. My challenge now is not the mouth fill itself, its how the hell to get that air into the ears with huge gopher cheeks. I can not do a tongue piston (Frenzel) with epiglottis shut of course, with such a large air space in my cheeks. I seem to manage only one EQ which I try to drag out as long as possible (10 seconds??) just using cheek pressure, then as cheek volume reduces, I (unfortunately) loose some air back to the lungs, and manage to do a tongue piston with the remaining smaller volume.

Have you tried doing repeated EQ with compressing your cheeks and releasing? I know that for some people the tubes stay open with an initial pressure on the cheeks, it doesn't work for me I need to apply a stronger and constant pressure for this to work, not very relaxing. I switch to the tongue when there's only air left in the throat - in the last 20m or so.

 

[DivingDane]

i'm still only a shallow diver by comparison to most of you however i figured i'd share my experiences.

i've been diving for a while and similer to Tcrusson i was stuck for a while in the low 40's.

after spending a couple of days training frc dives in EGYPT with lotta, i ended up doing surface dives and VERY shallow mouthfill FRC dives to 32-33m, then unfortunatly i was priveliged enough to get the touch of the pharoahs which knocked me around for 4 days.

with 2 days of dives left, i made 4 deep dives with gradual increase until i was a llittle deeper than 50m but still had a full mouthfill available to me.

the key Lotta drilled into me was the exact mouthfill that Eric has developed, large pressurisation holding the lips with the middle and second finger while holding the nose with the index finger and thumb, once a couple of meters down you can release the lip clamp and continue on as normal.

DD

 

[watts]

Like this.

:blackeye

 

[DivingDane]

yup

thats the way, now wherres my trombone..... time for some cheak stretching drills....

DD

 

[fflupo]

thanx for all that info..

so how you find out the perfect depth for the mouthfill, by mathmatics or felling?

 

[azapa]

I would say as Eric says: take one at the surface and see how far you can go with the delta pressure change. That delta is just maths if you do it latter.

Regarding the tips above: Eric too mention holding lips, or even squeezing the cheeks to equalize. I just can't see this hassle on a target dive (and never have seen/heard of anyone really do this).

At the end of the day 'tight ears' will always require more pressurization of he mouthfill to get the air there without the mechanical advantage of the tongue piston. I guess the solution is to make the ears less tight in the first place.. (tubular aerobics etc). Back to basics..

 

[Will]

Using Eric's method I managed 34m from the surface on a mouthfill yesterday, head down on my second attempt - a big improvement from 13m with my old method!
So the pressurisation technique definitely works, probably more to provide ulterior expansion than to pressurise the air itself.

 

[x_yeti]

Hi Eric, just been reading this and had a brain-fart. Have you experimented with trying to extend the capacity of the mouthfill using your hand? e.g. dropping your jaw fully and using your hand to cover your mouth. The problem with this is sealing the air in. Maybe a silicone glove or an artificial 'plug' on a glove? Basically I'm thinking of a more simplistic Herbert coke bottle mouthfill for CWT.

 

[aharon solomons]

fabulous !!