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World Series Freediving competition series announced
- Thread starterDeeperBlue.com
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Thread Status: Hello
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When it is not unfair, then where is the problem?
There are already more of them - for example those of F.R.E.E., or IAFD. Or Guinness
Each country has its own records as well.Those exist too - there are couple of competitions where AIDA and CMAS athletes compete side by side, and each can select the rules he wants to be applied to him.
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The main problem I have is with the dishonesty that goes hand-in-hand with this sort of thing - and is already evident here. The no packing rule is clearly not about fairness, the WSF is not 'the' governing org for freediving and if somebody claims a 50m CWT dive to be the deepest in history that'll be a lie too, technicalities about rule changes notwithstanding. Hopefully Mike avoids this kind of thing, but he doesn't seem to be off to a great start.
Right, as you can read here, I criticized the false claims of being "governing body" as the first in this thread. I agree that it is indeed a very childish and untrue PR, and hope they will remove it or at least change the "WSF is ..." to "WSF aims to be ..." asap.
But I see nothing wrong in banning packing - finally the consequence would be (or should be) that the WSF records will be inferior to those of AIDA, so it should not cause you any headaches And as for having separate records - as I wrote, we already have separate records of AIDA and CMAS (and other federations), and nobody cares about that too much. They can coexist just fine together, and when you want to check the global records and ranking, simply have a look at the Apnea.cz ranking where results from all federations are listed together, so it is easy to see which WR is the best
But I see nothing wrong in banning packing - finally the consequence would be (or should be) that the WSF records will be inferior to those of AIDA, so it should not cause you any headaches
And as for having separate records - as I wrote, we already have separate records of AIDA and CMAS (and other federations), and nobody cares about that too much. They can coexist just fine together, and when you want to check the global records and ranking, simply have a look at the Apnea.cz ranking where results from all federations are listed together, so it is easy to see which WR is the best I know of five coffee shops close to where I live who claim to make the best coffee in Sydney, and so far haven't lost any sleep over it. I try, and if I like, I come back. One of the beauties of the free market
Now, since we talk a lot about athletes and recognition, I think that it is great news that corporations (with the potential to invest) are taking an interest in competitive freediving. I've heard of a few stories of "elite freedivers" not able to get their plane tickets, or time off work, to go to major comps. To me, if their goal is to be world champs or whatever makes them tick, and if they're good at it and investing the time in training with great results, that's a sign that the current system is failing them. You would never see that in other, more publicised sports.
I don't know if you're teaching or not, but a good question to ask level 1 students when they come first into the room is: "can you name a famous freediver?". Then, continue with "have you ever heard of: William Trubridge, Alexei Molchanov, Herbert Nitsch, ...?". 99% of the ones I taught had never heard of them. Most could quote that there was a dude jumping in a dark hole somewhere on youtube. Outside of the people reading these forums, we're in no man's land... I would think that the athletes have a lot to gain in a new system with commercial presence.
Worst case it won't work and status quo will prevail. I'm not too sure if the wider community would really benefit from this though.
Now, since we talk a lot about athletes and recognition, I think that it is great news that corporations (with the potential to invest) are taking an interest in competitive freediving. I've heard of a few stories of "elite freedivers" not able to get their plane tickets, or time off work, to go to major comps. To me, if their goal is to be world champs or whatever makes them tick, and if they're good at it and investing the time in training with great results, that's a sign that the current system is failing them. You would never see that in other, more publicised sports.
I don't know if you're teaching or not, but a good question to ask level 1 students when they come first into the room is: "can you name a famous freediver?". Then, continue with "have you ever heard of: William Trubridge, Alexei Molchanov, Herbert Nitsch, ...?". 99% of the ones I taught had never heard of them. Most could quote that there was a dude jumping in a dark hole somewhere on youtube. Outside of the people reading these forums, we're in no man's land... I would think that the athletes have a lot to gain in a new system with commercial presence.
Worst case it won't work and status quo will prevail. I'm not too sure if the wider community would really benefit from this though.
Have to disagree with you there - as an athlete I value integrity of worldwide competition pretty highly regardless of whether the media pick up on it or not (it's a bit different here in NZ. A lot of people know who Will is). I don't anticipate making any money out of freediving either way, so I'm more interested in having a simple and level playing field. If the competitive aspect was trivialised I'd lose interest pretty fast. The thought that a half-assed performance of mine might be touted as a new WR would put me off competing under WSF. Like I say, hopefully it doesn't go that way.
Could explain from technical point of view how judges should separate performance with and without packing?
e.g.: any athlete must has a lung medical test before performance and exhales all air after performance to the special container. If volume is different then the performance consider not valid ...
I see nothing wrong to declare mandatory temperature of athletes feet before the start. Too low temperature must be banned! :t
The maneuvre of packing (glossopharyngeal insuflation) is very easy to see, so you do not need to make any medical test.
If you want to found a federation dictating certain body temperature, I see nothing wrong with it either. Just do it. Its your right.
Back to more technical issue... the bi-fin disciplines:
As I mentioned, we are running our 1st comp under a new organisation down here on the tip of Africa and the choice of seperating disciplines into mono and bi-fin was and still is an option for us. However, so far we haven't chosen to do this because performances with bi-fins using the dolphin kick will be too close to the monofin to make it worthwhile seperating. More so for dynamics than constant weight. Is this wrong?
As I mentioned, we are running our 1st comp under a new organisation down here on the tip of Africa and the choice of seperating disciplines into mono and bi-fin was and still is an option for us. However, so far we haven't chosen to do this because performances with bi-fins using the dolphin kick will be too close to the monofin to make it worthwhile seperating. More so for dynamics than constant weight. Is this wrong?
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I'd tell that the dolphin kick with bifins may be less efficient than flutter kick. The best bi-fin freedivers in history (Sietas, Mifsud) kept ahead of monofins until a few years ago, and they used classical flutter-kick. Also other bi-fin freedivers approaching the 200m mostly use classical flutter kick. Those who use dolphin kick usually switch to a monofin sooner or later anyway, because it is much better suited for this style.
So I would not bother too much about the style of kick. Simply note whether the respective freediver used a monofin or bi-fins, and I'll enter it in the ranking database accordingly.
So I would not bother too much about the style of kick. Simply note whether the respective freediver used a monofin or bi-fins, and I'll enter it in the ranking database accordingly.
Ahhh now this makes sense! Instead of inventing a new discipline with new rules, just keep it DYN and CWT, but note the type of fins used. Thanks.
I think there is a space or oppertunity for the less elite among us but would rather that to be clear. I just think world governing body is getting on peoples nerves. How would you react if I set up a new world governing body with AA regulations. I go to comps for some craic and do ok performances by my standard but as they are outside my country it involves a fair bit of expense as well. I would like to see a fun comp where "athlethes" carry a weight and do steps liek the surfers do and the bi fins category one is a stroke of genius imho. I also have in mind a distracted static but that so far involves just me and my girlfriend so I will refrain from expanding on it here but I am sure your imagination will do the rest. Add to that unashamed cw and we have the making of a deadly comp. If you BO you have to buy the drinks that night stuff like that in fact this comp may well take place next year in Ireland and we will be the world governing body.
Fun comps already exist. e.g. Freediving - fun competitions. and i think it's a great idea!
Btw, just to go back to the apparently controversial decision of WSF not to allow packing: I've always wondered if packing was really necessary or if it's mostly done... because everyone does it.
I remember seeing a video of Herbert breaking a WR with a depth somewhere in the late 80s or early 90s, and packing A LOT. Now I know for a fact that packing is not necessary for that depth. My deepest CWT dive was 92m, equalising at the bottom, and that was without packing - I reached that depth after a total of 8 weeks in 2 holidays with access to depth. Note that I'm definitely not an athlete, am pretty average at most sports, and don't train much compared to people seriously into comps. All of that just to say: I'm sure someone with real athletic skills and proper training would go MUCH deeper diving the same way. If you take Dave's point, from an earlier thread, that most people with some natural ability, and training, can reach 75% of WR in most sports, you can extrapolate that without packing there's still a long way to go.
I'm just really curious as to why most people pack, even to go to much shallower depths. There's only so much air you can gulp, is that what should limit the records?
Btw, just to go back to the apparently controversial decision of WSF not to allow packing: I've always wondered if packing was really necessary or if it's mostly done... because everyone does it.
I remember seeing a video of Herbert breaking a WR with a depth somewhere in the late 80s or early 90s, and packing A LOT. Now I know for a fact that packing is not necessary for that depth. My deepest CWT dive was 92m, equalising at the bottom, and that was without packing - I reached that depth after a total of 8 weeks in 2 holidays with access to depth. Note that I'm definitely not an athlete, am pretty average at most sports, and don't train much compared to people seriously into comps. All of that just to say: I'm sure someone with real athletic skills and proper training would go MUCH deeper diving the same way. If you take Dave's point, from an earlier thread, that most people with some natural ability, and training, can reach 75% of WR in most sports, you can extrapolate that without packing there's still a long way to go.
I'm just really curious as to why most people pack, even to go to much shallower depths. There's only so much air you can gulp, is that what should limit the records?
I think people use packing because it helps. It's an effective technique that improves performance. Not sure what that last sentence means?
I just found the reason given (fair play) pretty hard case. I can appreciate the desire to give different people a chance to set records without the burden of having to exceed previous performances ("wiping the slate clean"), at least that's a bit more honest. It's not really something I'd want to be involved with, but removing packing is a sufficient point of difference to allow you to do that. I expect everybody's performances would be scaled back similarly without it, not sure by how much though.
I find the bifin/monofin distinction more interesting, personally. I reckon it's still possible to challenge mono records with bifins but you'd need to be well suited to slow swimming and willing to put up with a lot of lactic in those isolated quads/hip flexors...
I just found the reason given (fair play) pretty hard case. I can appreciate the desire to give different people a chance to set records without the burden of having to exceed previous performances ("wiping the slate clean"), at least that's a bit more honest. It's not really something I'd want to be involved with, but removing packing is a sufficient point of difference to allow you to do that. I expect everybody's performances would be scaled back similarly without it, not sure by how much though.
I find the bifin/monofin distinction more interesting, personally. I reckon it's still possible to challenge mono records with bifins but you'd need to be well suited to slow swimming and willing to put up with a lot of lactic in those isolated quads/hip flexors...
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I think it makes great sense to have separate disciplines for bi-fins in both dynamic and constant weight. In cross country skiing they separate between classical style and skating with skies. You have some specialists that mostly concentrate on one discipline, but most athletes compete in both. Those athletes doing both usually win in both. I think it makes them better skiers. Maybe it will do the same for freediving? At least I am sure it will favour versatile athletes like Mullins, Trubridge and Stepanek. This is something AIDA definetely should consider.
You can perhaps hide the air intake, but I don't believe much that you could hide the buccal pump maneuvre. Perhaps only if you wear a burka.
But they can not ban burkas, can they?
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I went to the bathroom in front of the mirror just to check: It took more time to pack my lungs but there was nothing moving while I was packing thru nose but the chin has to be firmly against the chest... of course I sport a beard which might have helped. Obivoulsy I am the perfect freediver for WSF.
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