World Series Freediving competition series announced

[trux]

But they can not ban burkas, can they?

Hehe, they did already. At least here in France anywhere in public.

I went to the bathroom in front of the mirror just to check: It took more time to pack my lungs but there was nothing moving while I was packing thru nose but the chin has to be firmly against the chest...

Well, if you had your chin firmly against the chest, then it is not surprising you did not see you packing in the mirror, you probably just saw your feet

But seriously, I really wonder how you make the buccal pump without moving the jaw. Are you sure you are really packing (doing glossopharyngeal insuflation)? Or are just simply adding some air by couple of small extra inhales? Maybe you could post a video

However, regardless whether you can hide the packing or not, if someone wants to ban it, he can simply tell the divers that they have to dive within something like 5s after taking the final big inhale (or even less). Problem solved.

 

[Aber]

Mullins, you say that you find the bifin/monofin distinction interesting, and so do I. You also say that you reckon it's still possible to challenge mono records with bifins. Could you elaborate a bit more on that point and maybe back it up a bit more? Personal experiences etc. Are you only thinking about DYN or CW also? What's your thoughts on this Sebastian? How did the bi-fins comp go at the ND? This monofin/bi-fin issue is perhaps a theme for a new thread?

 

[Mullins]

I think it would be tough, since you can't travel very fast in bifins and you'd need to be able to do very long dives. But since a couple of guys did 225m+ fairly comfortably in bifins a while ago (both with very good statics) it's not too much of a stretch. I've trained a bit in bifins and as far as I can tell I don't lose too much distance. It just hurts like hell because a small group of leg muscles is doing all the work.

 

[trux]

Yes, I also think that a record still can be set with bifins. Sietas did 223m officially, and 250m (perhpas more) in training years ago. Mifsud did 213m when hist statics was at some 3/4 of his later STA performance. Branko Petrovic could just lay in the pool and let him drift away - in the almost quarter and hour that he can hold in STA, with a bit luck, he may drift farther than the current record without even moving much
Martin Stepanek set the CWT record of 93m in bifins a decade ago. He dove to such depth with small rubber bifins. Personally, I firmly trust that the record could be still broken in bifins, both in DYN and CWT.

As for the muscle fatigue, I am the opposite opinion than Dave - bifins permit to spread the acid lactic load better and to more muscle groups than a monofin. I do it by simply mixing flutter kick, doplhin kick, and adding also some breast-strokes along the dive. It is unstylish, but I can swim farther than when using just a single style.

 

[osusim]

But seriously, I really wonder how you make the buccal pump without moving the jaw.

Open your mouth and set your upper jaw in front of low one. You can pack with open mouth and till it not closed have still one breath.
New proposal for judging is: put a remote camera inside athlete's mouth and check any tong movement. :t

 

[Mullins]

As for the muscle fatigue, I am the opposite opinion than Dave - bifins permit to spread the acid lactic load better and to more muscle groups than a monofin. I do it by simply mixing flutter kick, doplhin kick, and adding also some breast-strokes along the dive. It is unstylish, but I can swim farther than when using just a single style.

Problem is, those alternatives aren't very efficient - I wouldn't dolphin kick with bifins if I wanted to do a very long swim. Similarly, a single arm stroke off the wall is ok because you don't pay for it with a recovery stroke, but otherwise no-fins technique is definitely less efficient than swimming with fins. For serious distances I'd stick to the optimal style and put up with the pain :blackeye

 

[trux]

Well, if you can, then why not. Personally, I am limited by muscle failure, not by hypoxia in DYN, so I have to go this route. I mix the different types of propulsion in such way, that I feel it rather efficient. And I am persuaded that even for an athlete with strong legs, the occasional mixing of another type of stroke may help him squeezing more from the muscles, while not losing much in efficiency.

 

[OzMike]

Hi All

i have had a look through the many wonderful topics here on DB, incredible!!!

Apologies for my absence on this topic ...I have been busy Freediving the South Pacific and surfing the Nth Coast of Australia on a Holliday break.

Now i have noticed many encouraging exemplary people here making all sort of great conversation, i think i will just ignore the petty despondant few

Shortly 2 of our fantastic Office Staff, Hayley and Emily will take control of WSF Social media interaction and all the fun stuff!!...The Athlete profiles are slowly building up - make sure to keep an eye on the WSF Facebook page (Like us) to see all the many videos and updates for upcoming events. the main website full version will be live shortly also. https://www.facebook.com/pages/World-Series-Freediving-HQ/254426994677180

Other great news - At the ODEX-Treme Neptune Freediving Challenge 2012 we will have the iQ camera on the bottom of the pool - yes this is the motorised track camera that is in use during the olympics - Stunning!!!!

There is rumours for a 2013 CCWT Shoot out, large prize money and a shot at the title of WSF Classic Constant Weight "CHAMPION" - i really love this!!!! - Venue will likely be Red Sea!

on a comedic note there may be another packing awareness day coming up in 2013, seems it is warranted, there is life beyond packing, you can break the habit

But Seriously, enjoy your Freediving and Smile more, Life is far to short to be in a bad mood, you will certainly attract more butterflies with honey than you will with vinegar.

Someone, i cant remember the name right now, i was just reading the post on here, was absolutely right! WSF aim is to soon be "The" world governing body of Freediving Competitions / Records - Our CEO Jim Holliday is very optimistic when it coms to business!!....within the next 12-24 months is going to be the most super exciting time for Freediving!!!!

Cheers

Mike

 

[x_yeti]

Problem is, those alternatives aren't very efficient - I wouldn't dolphin kick with bifins if I wanted to do a very long swim.

Maybe I'm doing something wrong then but to me the dolphin kick with bi-fins is way easier. You are streamlined, arms forward and you have the option to glide. I've only really tried a proper dynamic with monofin in competition once (also only had the opportunity to compete in 1 pool competition ) and managed an easy enough 153m... but I've since done a 150m in training using bodyboarding bi-fins in a 25m pool. Push off the wall, kick-glide, kick-glide and I've cleared 25m. Sort of like a suped-up DNF.

 

[esom]

But Seriously, enjoy your Freediving and Smile more, Life is far to short to be in a bad mood, you will certainly attract more butterflies with honey than you will with vinegar.

So your smile has a purpose too?

 

[cebaztian]

Packing vs no packing is a huge difference and I personally keep Personal records in each and also make a difference between mask and no mask dives = huge difference.

Apnea.cz -> please include bifins category now - in fact I demand it.

Apart from the fact the no pack dives are shallower and thus maybe safer.
What is the latest on packings effect on lung squeeze?

Sebastian

 

[trux]

As for the goal of becoming the leader in the field of competitive freediving, I wish all best! It is a nice target, but you may want to check the statistics to know exactly what you are aiming for. You can start here: APNEA.cz ranking

As you can see, in 2011 there were 180 competitions wordwide. The yearly growth rate is over 10%, so this year it will be probably around 200, in two years it could be around 250. AIDA alone organized 112 competitions in 2011. CMAS and its branches are in even a stronger growing rate, especially in pool disciplines. And after the recent opening of depth disciplines, CMAS depth competitons start to pop-up too.

So to become a leader, WSF will have to beat those numbers. I am afraid it won't be an easy task to organize some 200-300 competitions a year (meaning 4-6 each week). I hope your human, material, and financial resources are scaled up to the task. In the meantime, untill you reach the goal, you could perhaps consider removing or modifying the following sentece suggesting that WSF already is the world leader:

WSF is a professional company of world leaders in Apnea sport and education – WSF is “the” World Governing body for Professional Freediving Competitions and Record Sanctioning, ...

 

[trux]

Apnea.cz -> please include bifins category now - in fact I demand it.

Sebastian, it is already there since some time. Only, the data are currently not sufficient for displaying separate reports. I need that organizers and/or athletes report whether a performance was done in bi or mono. Organizers can simply submit the type of fin in a separate Excel column (if sending directly to Apnea.cz), or in the Comment field. Competitors can edit their performances (or performances of others they now) directly in the ranking (click the Edit icon on the right side of the result row, and select the type of fin used).

In the same way also 50m / 25m pool lengths can be selected. If sufficient data are collected, I'll add separate report modes for bi-fins, and for 25/50m pools, but currently it is not worth doing since it would be just misleading due to the very limited data available.

 

[osusim]

So to become a leader, WSF will have to beat those numbers. I am afraid it won't be an easy task to organize some 200-300 competitions a year (meaning 4-6 each week). I hope your human, material, and financial resources are scaled up to the task. In the meantime, untill you reach the goal, you could perhaps consider removing or modyfying the following sentece suggesting that WSF already is the world leader:

World Champion Freediver Mike wells (from youtube)

I guess to be a World Champion needs at list to participate in a World Championship.

 

[Very]

WSF aim is to soon be "The" world governing body of Freediving Competitions / Records - Our CEO Jim Holliday is very optimistic when it coms to business!!....within the next 12-24 months is going to be the most super exciting time for Freediving!!!!

Cheers

Mike

Just read that post and want to say something :wave

I don't believe in business competition and rivalry.
Why do you want to push "freediving" in such directions?

I like to evolve together a free diving from an open, free and honest way.

Cheers

Very

 

[Walrus]

Hi Mike,
can you please provide links and/or names of the people involved with the packing studies that you have mentioned ?
I know you have deleted my wall posts from your facebook page which I accept. But when BOB CROFT HIMSELF has posted on your facebook wall curious about these packing studies and you delete him I find this quite rude.

If anyone wants to lookup up Jim Holliday who was/is one of the directors that operated/operates Aquanaut Australia, and in 2008 also became one the Directors for SSI Australia (Apologies as this is a bit dated) :-

"SSI is pleased to announce that as of August 1, 2008, a new company has been formed for SSI Australia. The directors will be Jim and George Holliday who own and operate Aquanaut Australia and distribute Aqualung, Suunto, Neptune Wetsuits, Sharkskin Australia, Sea & Sea and Underwater Kinetics for all of Australia and New Zealand. Operations and training will still be managed by SSI Australia’s founders, Bruce Jameson and Col McKenzie. The new office will be headquartered in Newcastle, Australia."

http://www.divenewswire.com/NewsITems.aspx?newsID=9723

From there you can see the strong ties between SSI, Neptune, Suunto and over the last few years C4 fins. It does make really good business sense as from teaching the courses and selling the gear, it is all sourced thru one company. I’m curious if other companies such as PADI will be as smart, or perhaps they are already doing it ?

Wal

 

[trux]

Well, I do not know who WSF cooperated with, but there are indeed numerous studies showing the lung damage due to packing is a high risk at freedivers, and that injuries may be much more common than an uneducated freediver may think. Have a look at some of them here: documents packing @ APNEA.cz

For example these ones may be of special interest:
Glossopharyngeal insufflation causes lung injury in trained breath-hold divers - CHUNG - 2010 - Respirology - Wiley Online Library
European Journal of Applied Physiology, Volume 103, Number 4 - SpringerLink
Pneumomediastinum after lung pac... [Undersea Hyperb Med. 2006 Sep-Oct] - PubMed - NCBI
ImpulseAdventure - Freediving - Lung Squeeze

Also in the other documents there is valuable information. The list is not complete, there are more of such studies. Then there are also several interesting threads on this topic here on DB, with participants including some of the authors of the above mentioned studies, and other experts.

 

[Walrus]

Thanks Trux, at least you are providing some links. Mike's attitude of just ignoring people, and as I said just deleted posts even from Bob who was after some info. I find that pretty rude. Personally I have never done myself any harm even with extreme packing, apart from the occasional sore throat. Most freedivers I know are in the same boat, I do know of injuries done by people trying to do too much too soon, you need to build up over time.

The WSF/SSI comp will take place at an event called ODEX in 2 weeks. I didn't really check other people's Bios, on Mike's it's claimed that he has the Australian Static Record, which is false. This would already have been read by 100's - 1000's of people. Doesn't seem like this is something that could be an honest mistake. It would have taken Mike only a few minutes to read it and correct this, but something that obviously wasn't done.

Speakers Bios | ODEX 2012 | Sydney

This is actually small potatoes, if you look at the rest of his Bio. Mike and/or media people has/have been claiming that he set a World Record with a cave swim done years ago. Initially some media announced that this was a Guinness World Record. It was never recognized by Guinness, so this was a false claim. No organization, sporting body or company since has ever been mentioned as to who actually recognized this. So why is it still being called a world record ?
Who were the objective officials/judges and witnesses ?
Again if it's something Mike didn't write himself or done by his staff or people that know him, It's not something he has ever bothered correcting thereby is sticking by the same story that this false claim is indeed a fact.

Trux, I'm sure you aren't going to dispute that are you?

I personally don't think there is anyone really involved with WSF apart from Mike, but this is just an educated guess, I could be wrong. But when there is no contact details of people involved and the domain is owned by Aquanaut of which SSI Australia is part of.... This along with the only people that are contacts for WSF on facebook are Mike.....
A lot of things combined makes it hard for me to think otherwise. But like I said, I could be wrong.






Wal

 

[trux]

Trux, I'm sure you aren't going to dispute that are you?

I am not assciated with WSF in any way, and do not know Mike personally, so there is no reason to take stand on those claims. If you want to verify the official performances of Mike, you can check them out here: APNEA.cz ranking - Mike Wells (his NR is an ex-record).

As for the risk of packing, the studies give a rather clear signal that there may be important risks involved, and possible long term lung damage cannot be currently excluded too. This is from the abstract of one of the studies:

Results: None of the subjects showed symptoms or signs of pneumomediastinum. However, in five of six subjects a pneumomediastinum was detected during the CTGI. In three subjects a pneumomediastinum was detected on the CTGI, but had resolved by the time of the CTTLC. In two subjects a pneumomediastinum was seen on both the CTGI and the CTTLC, and these were larger on the day that a maximal GI manoeuvre had been performed. The single subject, in whom a pneumomediastinum was not detected, was demonstrated separately to not be proficient at GI.

Conclusions: Barotrauma was observed in breath-hold divers who increased their lung volumes by GI. The long-term effects of this barotrauma are uncertain and longitudinal studies are required to assess cumulative lung damage.

Knowing that there are many freedivers who pack since years without any diagnosed consequences, it is possible that the very frequent barotrauma at packing is nothing serious and heals very quickly without consequencies, but if you read the studies and discussions on that topic here on DB, the experts do have some concerns. So from this point of view, I see nothing wrong in having a federation that bans packing. It gives a clear signal to the ordianry freediver that there is some risk involved. Those who want to continue packing, have enough of other alternatives.

 

[Walrus]

The current Australian Static record was set 16months ago, so is hardly
"news" or something that could be accidentally written and just not have been updated recently.

Knowing that there are many freedivers who pack since years without any diagnosed consequences, it is possible that the very frequent barotrauma at packing is nothing serious and heals very quickly without consequencies

Trux, myself and most competitive freedivers I know are of this opinion. Just to make it clear, no where in AIDA or CMAS rules say that you HAVE TO use packing. It is an individual choice, and the freedivers do so at their own risk. If you are worried about potential damage being done by packing then isn't it simple to just not use it ?

If you look at other sports, contact sports like Rugby Union & League, American football, boxing, Ice Hockey obviously most people taking part will get injuries at some stage in their career. But even non contact sports, track&field, Tennis, running, cycling, swimming, soccer almost any sport you can think of there are always risks of injuries. I think if any running event, be it long or short distance decided that everyone should only run on grass or sand to lessen the wear&tear being done to the athletes knees and ankles, with all the performances reduced it would be seen as ridiculous.

Wal